Summer Daze [London Underground taking the PISS or for real?]

[Zaprenz]

Ok so a new product out from the LU range.

"Summer Daze"

What's interesting is apart from the usual unethical practice of not including the full ingredients the following is listed...

Ingredients per tablet Fatty Acid Derivatives, Dicalcium Phosphate, Magnesium Sterate

Are legal highs starting to include Cannabinoid related compounds (fatty acid derivates - anandamide etc comes to mind) or are they just taking the P**S and using this to further confuse the issue of what they contain??

[Depending on what they contain this might be better in RC forum]

[Mint boi]

I'd say LU product discussion almost certainly belongs in the rc forum, if their other products are anything to go by!!!

[Zaprenz]

^good point, I was 50/50 as to which forum to post in, am happy if admin moves etc.

Wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be something like MBDB or bk-MBDB and nothing to do with cannabinoids. [Just put there to further confuse the topic]

[Thirdedge]

Originally Posted by mint boi

I'd say LU product discussion almost certainly belongs in the rc forum, if their other products are anything to go by!!!

I think so too, from here on in please post anything to do with the London Underground range of products in the Research Chemicals forums. If a certain product is proven to be genuinely herbal then it can be moved back here, however this product range should be assumed synthetic until proven otherwise.

[Zaprenz]

Catch 22 advertising/harm minimisation.

Regardless of what they actually contain, by posting the original message SWIM has possibly fallen trap to exactly what the manufacturers want.

Listing "fatty acid derivatives" quite possibly appeals to people on the internet who will "cleverly" (or not) propose a possible link to CB type chemicals - unwittingly advertising them as such. Secondly as this type of advertising doesn't come direct from the makers it could on some forums seem more believable.

SWIM also guesses this is the reason LU doves and the above are advertised as plant food - not so they reduce any possible liability for people suffering side effects but simply so they don't have to reveal the ingredients to their competitors (due to the many laws governing supplements).

Reputation Comments on this post:

hey! that's some great insight!!! i have thought about this a bit, and your theoy is EXACTLY right!! :) good job

[Alfa]

I would guess that not disclosing the ingredients is done to avoid a ban on these ingredients.

[Zaprenz]

^This is true but starting to doubt that the more and more rediculous the ingredient list seems to be.

Apart from not including ingredients - whether to put ketones or "fatty acid derivatives" will make little difference on any ban. It will make a difference on the way they are sold though.

[Alfa]

Piperazines would probably not have stayed legal for as long as they did, if they would not have been presented as pepper extract. This allowed them to stay under the radar for a long time until massive sales where going on, without too many incidents.

However, the fact that this worked out well for piperazines says nothing about other substances. Who knows what's in London underground pills?

[Zaprenz]

very true.

at least with "pepper extract" you knew you what you were getting though. [not exact ratios but it was going to be a blend of a given set of piperazines]

Can't help feeling this is going beyond prevention of future banning.

[syntelman]

Of course it is not about preventing banning.
Any modern government has the full know-how and capacity/facilities to determine the contents of these pills without looking at the "ingredients list". I would be extremely surprised if the contents of any pill with widespread distribution isn't known already. Sure, may help as long as the sale is minimal but at the same point I doubt any government would be interested in those pills because of the same reason anyway.

Personally I believe that the main reason for keeping the ingredients hidden is plain and simple capitalism, i.e to hide it from competitors. Nothing wrong with that, but it kinda screws the harm reduction approach.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Good points.
	good thoughts (great addition), but I can't help but think that you're BOTH right on this one! "plantfood"=ok ...

[Zaprenz]

^exactly.

The problem is it's psuedo-loophole-capitalism arising due to trying to swim between barriers and meet supply and demand in terms of legal highs.

If the makers weren't worried about the law catching up with them and consumers weren't thinking "lets buy these tablets before it's illegal" - they wouldn't be able to get away with not listing the ingredients.

=> Not just because of regulations but because people simply would choose brands which list the ingredients (consumer power)

Most people when given a blind taste test cannot tell the difference between coke-a-cola and pepsi yet most people also insist quite strongly they prefer one over the other. [LU have released BZP based pills, identical ingredients/ratios but different brands & prices in the past]

Having the consumer believe it is in their best interest to not list ingredients (i.e no worries we'll be selling these for a while mate) leaves the companies open to all kinds of dodgy practices.

You could argue the same for research chemicals but at least you know what the chemical is supposed to be.

"ketones" - relatively acceptable considering they most likely do contain any one of the popular bk compounds. [Still bit merky though - sure make the name cryptic but allow people who put some effort in to figure it out]

"fatty acid derivatives" - looks to SWIM like they are making the most of their "we have to hide ingredients line" and using it as a marketing tool - two birds with one stone.

This can only end badly. Ultimately it will probably mark the introduction of analogue laws in other countries and tighter controls of health food supplements.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good post, appreciate your insights.

[6oclockpill]

Originally Posted by mint boi

I'd say LU product discussion almost certainly belongs in the rc forum, if their other products are anything to go by!!!

LU's other products aren't anything to go buy!!!

Even the ones with listed ingredients. SWIM tried and liked LU Bolts... but they contain "standardised nutmeg extract". What's with that? SWIM decided to stay away.

[Durd1e]

"standardised nutmeg extract" sounds like the maoi present in nutmeg to me.

There shouldn't necessarily be a problem with not disclosing the ingredients in these product. Not to sound harsh but how many of the people who use them will actually know anything about the chemical when they take it even if it is listed?

I think all it takes is caution on the part of consumers, bearing in mind that the don't know what they are dealing with, and no-one should suffer as a result.

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by Durd1e

There shouldn't necessarily be a problem with not disclosing the ingredients in these product. Not to sound harsh but how many of the people who use them will actually know anything about the chemical when they take it even if it is listed?

That used to one of the major benefits of places like erowid. It encourages checking of information about a drug before dosing. Agreed not everyone is going to do it but at least a certain percentage in a group of people will. It also means in the few cases where they end up in hospital from taking *drug* they (or friends) can tel the people who are trying to help what was taken.

Lets say the packet says "benzylpiperazine or BZP" it means even if a person knows absolutely NOTHING about the chemical in any way at all (or in fact chemistry and has no idea what a carbon atom is) you can at least log on to erowid, drugs-forum etc and get some basic advice on safe use & possible side effects.


...and in terms of value for money if NONE of the consumers have any idea what is contained they are leaving themselves completely vunerable to being ripped off. It only needs a few people to check up on the facts - not everyone has to study chemistry or be bothered to go on the internet - just a occasional 1 in every group etc.

[Durd1e]

[quote=Zaprenz;360835]
...and in terms of value for money if NONE of the consumers have any idea what is contained they are leaving themselves completely vunerable to being ripped off.quote]

True but that can happen anyway...look at all those old school legal highs - druid's fantasy etc good on paper but a total non-experience in reality.

The thing about erowid is true and you are right -in a perfect world we would know, but even then I am not that sure that many people actually look. People also seem to go to extremes even with that knowledge. Also I really don't like this continuing cycle of something coming out then being made illegal and the manufacturers having to reach further for their next product. I guess I think that the real problem here is prohibitionism.

My other concern with the non-disclosure of ingredients is that they may be illegal unbeknownst to the consumer. Which is worrying.

[Zaprenz]

True but that can happen anyway...look at all those old school legal highs - druid's fantasy etc good on paper but a total non-experience in reality.

Not to pick holes as SWIM is in agreement with SWIYS view that prohibition is the problem but the above is actually a good example of why ingredients should be on packet. (from the consumers view)

Firstly those who wanted to could look up ingredients on net (as you say though if this is only a few people fair enough). How many people take prescription medicine? [yes the packets always say "don't take if on any medicine etc" but people stupidly do, in this case checking for compatibility issues is the lesser of two evils]

More importantly though if a person took druids fantasy, realised it was a complete non-experience they would have a good eye for other rubbish. It may well prevent them wasting more money in the future(e.g space cadets). Lets say no ingredients were listed (or hinted at), what is to stop another company repackaging that rubbish and selling them on under a different name?

Also FAR more worrying is changing ingredients between batches.

[Alfa]

Originally Posted by Zaprenz

More importantly though if a person took druids fantasy, realised it was a complete non-experience they would have a good eye for other rubbish. It may well prevent them wasting more money in the future(e.g space cadets). Lets say no ingredients were listed (or hinted at), what is to stop another company repackaging that rubbish and selling them on under a different name?

Funny, that you choose druids fantasy and space cadets as an example. Did you try both?

Space Cadets are no longer for sale in The Netherlands since they contain GABA, which is illegal here. I do not know if Space Cadets have changed in the last years, but space cadets was a very good product.

Actually, these products where very different. Even though they had similar ingredients. Druids fantasy has little to no effect, while space cadets was quite strong and effective.

[Mint boi]

Stargate have released a product called MeO containing MeOPP (methyoxyphenylpiperazine), the effects that these summer daze pills boast seem very similar to the stargate range, maybe the ingredients are the same or similar.

Off topic, why is gaba illegal in the Netherlands alpha? I'm not well read on it but i didnt even think it could cross the b/b barrier

[Zaprenz]

SWIZ didn't get anything from many of the pills sold at that time from that company(in reference HH not LU) apart from the ephedrine ones which were as expected for ephedrine (or so SWIZ says)

Is GABA illegal in netherlands?? very strange, didn't know that.


There was also a product which they sold(HH not LU) called sexstasy (not the stuff that has been sold with that name for any product recently nor in reference to the dangerous drug combo) but which actually contained "4OH-2-Furanone" (or so say the ingredients). [Can't work out if that is a kryptic name for GHB salt or strange analogue - the chemical name doesn't fully make sense] - never witnessed that but always wondered.

[Mint boi]

Originally Posted by Zaprenz

SWIZ didn't get anything from many of the pills sold at that time from that company apart from the ephedrine ones which were as expected for ephedrine.

From London Underground? or Stargate? My ferret has only used one LU product, but has used a few from stargate who always let the consumer know the ingredients of their pills it seems.

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by mint boi

From London Underground? or Stargate? My ferret has only used one LU product, but has used a few from stargate who always let the consumer know the ingredients of their pills it seems.

Sorry SWIM thought this might happen (have tried to correct post), this topic is called "summer daze london undergrand" but last post was in response to alpha's comments on "druids fantasy" & "space cadets" made by an older company that started out with morning glory stuff, ephedrine, calamus capsules etc.

SWIM doesn't doubt the strong effects possible from LU pills just finds the lack of any information on ingredients (or hint) a cause for concern.

[Durd1e]

Can't believe GABA is illegal in the netherlands. Swim has used it as part of an excercise regime and doesn't think it could have any possible recreational use.

Swim has tried druids fantasy - total rubbish containing lsa if memory serves but never space cadets. They are still available here though. I know that one of the used to contain TMA 2 however, which I think is banned now.

The LU pills definitely don't contain meopp though...a very different experience.

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by Durd1e

Swim has tried druids fantasy - total rubbish containing lsa if memory serves but never space cadets. They are still available here though. I know that one of the used to contain TMA 2 however, which I think is banned now.

It was Asarone (from calamus) and it was supposed to be converted metabolically in to TMA-2. There has been very little evidence to back this up and the safety (for the liver) if true is also questionable.

[Again this is in reference to HH pills not LU]

[Alfa]

back in the dark ages the Herbal High co's Bliss extra did contain TMA-2, but changed to asarone along the way. The TMA-2 version was more fun.

Anyway; back to London Underground's Summer disaster. Erm daze.

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by Alfa

back in the dark ages the Herbal High co's Bliss extra did contain TMA-2, but changed to asarone along the way. The TMA-2 version was more fun.

yikes that does sound more interesting. Yet another good example why ingredients lists are good, people may have been purchasing bliss extra for a long time afterwards wondering why the effects weren't coming through. Although did they ever list TMA-2 as an ingredient or rather sneak it in at the beginning?


Summer Daze [Speculation]: SWIM wonders whether it is a slightly altered version of doves minus any small amount of "DOMS" or DPP which was causing problems.