GBL 24/7 side effects

[Birkill]

swim has been doing gbl 24/7 and is wondering over then withdrawal what over health side effects will result of this. SWIM has already noticed sum quite intense anger when he thinks as his friends treat him bad, is this aresult of gbl or jus a natural feeling of being pissed off?

[MrG]

Oh FFS, why on earth did SWIY get into a 24/7 G habit? GBL particularly is a nasty nasty habit to break once done 24/7 for a period.

And don't try to tell me that SWIY just couldn't help himself. G is *not* a compulsive type of drug. One would have to actually make the effort to maintain a 24/7 dosing regimen.

Look, start by telling SWIY to begin a titration (smaller and smaller doses) withdrawal process immediately.

As for the anger, SWIY's altered dopamine state due to the 24/7 dosing will be making him prone to both obsessive behaviour and mood swings.

How long has SWIY been 24/7 for?

[Birkill]

A few months now, i can get through the day by doing 3ml every 3hours with an hour ish of withdrawing but i find it impossible to sleep witout and i find very hard to sleep before i even dun gbl which is 1 reason i got into it.

[MrG]

Please remember the rules, it is SWIM (Someone Who Isn't Me) who has the G problem, not you.

3ml every 3 hours? Sheesh, SWIY does like making his life hard doesn't he?

Ok, the biggest hurdle he faces is the fact that coming off GBL can be really horrible. Personally, if SWIM were in his position, he would convert the GBL to GHB using the tek here http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26198

Once he has access to a good supply of GHB he will need to stop using GBL completely and replace it with the GHB. Once this is done he will find it a whole lot easier to quit his daytime dosing. As for the night-time dosing he shouldn't have to quit as long as he reads up enough about how pharma GHB (xyrem) is dosed. Have him go through as many threads in this forum's GHB section as possible in order for him to evaluate for himself what regimen would work best to solve his sleeping problems.

Just to give him an idea, the average patient who is prescribed Xyrem (GHB) takes one dose 30 minutes before sleep, whilst already in bed, of about 4g (which is 20ml of that recipe's GHB, *not* GBL!) and then, another dose when they get the rebound about four hours later in order to get a full eight hours sleep.

However, if SWIY is living with his parents it would probably not be a good idea to dose himself that solidly in case they panic if they ever try to rouse him during the night and are unaware of his chemically assisted sleep.

He may choose to simply wind down with a little dose during the evening and leave it at that.

Please ensure that SWIY does enough research to be able to judge for himself what dosing he will need to be able to accomplish this. There are a number of factors involved in a medical professional prescribing the correct dose for a patient, body weight, general health, concomitant drug use etc. and it is important that he is fully informed and educated about how he might best kick his GBL habit.

There are absolutely no issues of concern regarding sudden cessation from long term nightly Xyrem use (GHB) that have been reported and there have been many many studies done.

This is yet another reason why SWIM will always urge people to avoid using GBL and to do the tek and convert.

Feel free to ask any questions SWIY has about this but many of his questions will already have been answered in this forum.

[Birkill]

SWIM has seriously been thinking about doing a conversion but he is afraid that he will fuk it up and waste his precious gbl in the process and has trouble getting the relevent chemical. Also with gbl even if swim doses quite high he rarely sleeps more then 2.5 hours at a time which has lead to me waking up leaving it half an hour then redosing and sleeping again after about 45-60 mins, will ghb improve this as ive heard its longer lasting and less rebound effect, is this true?

[MrG]

Firstly, the conversion process is really really simple. As for getting the required chemicals, I assume SWIY means NaOH, just get a small tub of caustic soda from a hardware store. For the purposes of needing to get off GBL as quickly and safely as possible it doesn't matter about using lab grade NaOH.

Secondly, GHB will help SWIY in a number of ways, it will allow him to come off 24/7 dosing a shitload easier and safer than trying to quit GBL and will allow him to address his sleeping problems in due course. SWIY probably suffers from a number of side-effects from the regular GBL use as well which will go away too (mood swings, dry skin, limb spasms or twitching etc.)

SWIY needs to focus on the conversion process, get the stuff he needs for it, do the process and then use the GHB instead of the GBL. Othewise he could try simply titrating from the GBL use but that can get tricky and very uncomfortable or even, in some long term users cases, dangerous.

Either way SWIY needs to accept that he has to stop the 24/7 usage.

GHB used recreationally, even every night, is fine because of how quickly the body metabolises it. By the morning everything is reset again and the body, or rather the brain, isn't affected by it anymore. 24/7 dosing, however, *is* a problem as the brain never gets a chance to recover from the dopamine tweaking.

[Birkill]

Another quick questain could i half the amount of produced ghb by just using 60ml gbl and other chemicals etc?

[MrG]

Well obviously not you, because that would be illegal. But yes, if you happened to know someone who wanted to do that then, yes they could halve the amounts across the recipe.

[Birkill]

Sorry i forgot it was merly a hyperthetical questain for the benifit of swim!

[chrisdahl]

Originally Posted by MrG

And don't try to tell me that SWIY just couldn't help himself. G is *not* a compulsive type of drug.

IMO thats not true

Where's the scientific proof its not a compulsive drug????Depends on the individual

How long have you been taking geeby?You reckon on to know all about it but IMO you seem to know little other than what you have studied

Have you been through compulsive/habititual GHB/GBL use?It sucks you in big time

[MrG]

Originally Posted by mrphucker

You reckon on to know all about it but IMO you seem to know little other than what you have studied

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Either I have studied it and developed a certain level of knowledge from that study or I have not studied it and merely have a subjective viewpoint based on just an opinion or hearsay and therefore I am full of crap.

Where is the scientific proof? - Have you even read the reams and reams of studies that are posted in this forum?

Oh and BTW, no I have never taken GHB or GBL but SWIM has spent pretty much the whole of the past year studying it, making it, ingesting it and experimenting with it in great depth.

So I stand by what I said in my earlier post, G is *not* compulsive. It is not an addictive substance. You *do* have to intentionally begin using it inappropriately frequently in order start hitting problems in relation to cessation.

[Birkill]

Yea mr g your mostly right swim did like to hammer it as it was a nice escape for him and i have huge probs sleeping but as with most idiots he thought he could stop when needed but he was wrong! But your original comments about swim wernt the nicest and did come across as a bit patronising. Might as well give you an update of swim, while hes about. Hes still having trouble as he never got round to making ghb as he has no scales, only 1 pyrex jug, no themometer and not much gbl left on top of that hes absolutly skint! Yesterday he realy tried, he only dun 2.5ml every 4 hours which hardley touched the sides took his last dose 9ish and vowed not to touch any more till the morning. He had enuff cider to get him nicely sozzeled but couldnt realy get into it and by 3am he was realy feeling the large amount of dopamine in his brain. He couldnt take it anymore and sorted himself out a large dose to knock him out and the cycle continues! How much gbl should he take and how often to ween himself of the shit?

[MrG]

Look, patronising I am not, direct and to the point I am.

There is only so much I can offer SWIY in the way of more advice other than what I have already covered.

SWIY needs to seriously stop fucking around with this, especially when I hear that he is also drinking alcohol.

I accept how difficult it can be for SWIY to deal with the inability to sleep at night and maybe it would be best for him to allow himself a sleep sized dose at bedtime with another when he wakes a few hours later, this will at least allow him to get enough rest. As for during the day, well SWIY is going to have to try really really cutting down. As for it not touching the sides, well it's not supposed to. He shouldn't be looking for his daytime dosing to be giving him a buzz, he needs to cut down on the size of each daytime dose he has by .5ml each day.

Once he can cut out his daytime dosing then he can begin to address his sleeping issues.

[Birkill]

The thing is i often have apointments to keep i.e today i have to go to the jobcentreother days i have to go to probation and id find it impossible to do them when im clucking.

[MrG]

They're your excuses not mine. If you don't want to deal with this problem then it will eventually deal with you.

I've offered more than enough for SWIY to be able to kick this habit, if he doesn't want to man up and get it done then I'm certainly not going to waste my time doling out pages and pages of advice to someone who has an excuse for letting it slide.

Go see a doctor and tell him the truth. If you're on the social I doubt it would cost you a penny and you'd certainly get a lot more hand holding and back rubbing than I'm prepared to give you.

Oh and if any other users think I am being a little harsh on Birkill then maybe they should be aware of some of his threads on another forum I just came across:

"Finally arrived at 11am dun 2ml straight away and was so fuked i missed my drug counceler apointment thingie and fell over sum railings flat on my face in the middle of town in front of loadsa people! Ended up in a snooker club looking like i was on smack, kept doing that nodding thing."

"Ear are butsy u liked the last 1 ul luv this 1!..........I pissed my self last night.............Again???!!!!! Ava look at my old posts init!!"

"And i cum home bout 5am tried doin bout 3ml ina bout half a pint of water ina pint glass and ended up filling it up with puke!!Then i woke up about 9ish passed out on my sofa. and i lost my bacy, BASTARD!!"

In response to his repeated requests regarding information about the side effects of 24/7 GBL dosing a more enlightened user on that forum posted this to him:

"the problem is birkill aint treating it carefully. he knows he has a gbl addiction, and made different threads about it.

man, really, all you want to hear its that its fine to abuse it the way you do, taking what, 8-10ml a day? its not. even if gbl its less toxic to the body than alchool, its still is a GABA receptor drug. this means that the addiction its similar, but STRONGER, to alchool and benzodiazepines addiction.

have you ever saw the alchoolics with delirium tremens crysis? thats what you are looking for man.im not even sure you are to a point where you can simply stop using it, and you might need help by now.

i know i sound rude, but man, you keep posting about gbl, somewhat hoping for us to just tell you "its ok, dont worry" but the truth its that at the point you are, its not ok. you are free to do whatever you want, but id really advice you to seek help, both psychological, and specially for the withdrawls, as they dangerous, and in some cases can be life threatening."

[Birkill]

At first it started off as a bit of a laugh for swim and he would only get at most 250ml and have a three day cluck off it then leave it for a bit. But this time it was different for him when the bottle ran out he`d simply get some more and then he went splits on a large amount with one of his buddys, then when a few things went tits up for swim, he realy started going at it not realy giving a fuck about things which he seemed to like at the time. Now things are a bit more on track he just wants out even if he makes he knows when it all goes wrong again he`ll end up in the same boat again maybe not with gbl but some other comfort drug. swim seems to go through phases of caring about things. Small questain where can one who isnt me get litmus paper from, a pharmacy?

[vcdman]

well i just wanna say that Mr G has offered very good advice and even some support... his knowledge (because SWIMgG does lots of "study") is far more than most in the ghb forum...

good luck birkill, sounds like SWIY has a difficult but do-able task in front of him... time to be serious tho

[lesbos]

I agree, mostly good advice so far by the helpful Mr G and others. Although I have got a bit to add some areas eg - 'GHB is not a compulsive drug', and coping with withdrawal. Hopefully my comments will be found constructive.

My good friend SWIM, we'll call him Borat, recalls from his own experience that someone who has had a previous / ongoing alcohol dependance problem may be more susceptible to having problems with GHB or especially GBL use. Borat guessed at the fact the drug's similar effects to that of alcohol could be the root cause of this. Borat does state the obvious sometimes

Easily available information in the media about how GHB is used abroad to treat alcoholism (on a prescription basis) may add to the false sense of security a user experiences whilst dabbling in these chemicals.

Make no mistake though, after the initial 'i don't need to drink like a fish any more, i'm cured!' or 'wohoo i don't give a fuck about the bad things in my life anymore' experience that the unfortunate experimenter may experience on GBL/GHB it's possible they may find themselves in a far more serious situation, due to the new 'alcohol replacement' drug's higher potency. This unfortunate person could be SWIY, or anyone with a GBL problem....we'll them call Mustafa, for surreality purposes.

Borat told me that moving from GBL > GHB was in his case ESSENTIAL and URGENT once accepting the fact he had a GBL problem. Borat has since let on, that the second most important point he followed was to begin tapering the dose of GHB consumed immediately - starting with the smallest dose which alleviated the most severe GBL withdrawal symptoms.

Obviously Borat is not identical to Mustafa, mentally or physically, so common sense would need to be used in working out Mustafa's taper rate - simply copying what Borat did may not work or could even be counterproductive. The rate of dose taper depends on several factors: how much GHB is available, together with the length of time Mustafa is willing to 'waste' suffering withdrawal, vs the severity of withdrawal symptoms which he is willing to endure.

Slower taper = longer WD but less intense WD.

Remember, after the first 'correct' dose the Mustafa should not get a buzz off any subsequent ones. Once tapering has commenced, if you don't feel like shit then you're tapering TOO SLOW. WD is meant to be fking horrible, suck it up and push through it! Mustafa needs willpower here, maybe he could gain strength from his rapidly improving clarity of thought?

The other night whilst swigging a can of Stella, Borat recalled that during WD, Mustafa and those like him would probably have an ungodly tolerance to alcohol and similar downers (benzos etc). This means that he CANNOT get away with thinking the last GBL dose can be taken after 24/7 dosing, and be fine cos he's got 2 flaggons of cider. Mustafa really, really won't. Alcohol and Benzos may help with the WD but need to be used very cautiously, as everyone knows when combining downers...

If the worst came to the worst and things started getting CRAZY during withdrawal, no reason not to call a doctor / ambulance (extreme) anyway right, all the drugs would be gone right? they'd have been taken. Which is why Mustafa and those like him get in this mess - only thinking about giving up when they've (almost) already run out. Borat knows, he's been there, and he came back.

Good luck.

[Birkill]

Your be pleased to here swim has bitten the bullet and sorted his silly little head out and quit gbl. Done his last bit friday night and had a terrorble night and next day. At one point he was in a phone box and he could see full on drips of water coming out the buttons which freaked him right out but luckily one of his mates sorted him out some temazapams which helped him get his head down. Its sunday night now and i think im over the worst of it and im seeing the quack tomoro. Thanks for all your advice mr g and have a merry christmas xxx

[asdasdasd]

I must agree with Birkill on the addictivness of the drug. SWIM was addict on benzos, he never tried GHB or GBL (here in italy it is not so diffused as in your countries) but he remember of the addictivness of the gaba-drugs. He used to took the drug with alcohol & weed, also at morning, for like 5 months. He was really fucked up, he almost stopped going to school. And a friend of him also used to take 5 tavors\day...

[MrG]

You're missing the point, I don't doubt the problems related to trying to quit a 24/7 habit when it comes to GHB and certainly not GBL.

What I have issue with is when people try to claim that G is the type of drug that led them there in the first place. It is not. Even Birkill admits that he started going heavier on his use because of other factors in his life and *that* is when he got locked in to the constant use because, especially with GBL, once used in 24/7 mode the withdrawal problems can become severe.

The good news, as I hope Birkill is now experiencing, is that once the worst of the withdrawl symptoms have passed within the first few days, his system will manage to stabilise quite quickly and he will not be left with any lasting problems.

Other than those that are evidently already in his life.

Good luck Birkill, I am genuinely pleased to hear that you did the right thing in the end. Feel free to keep us informed as to how the whole experience went. I am sure it would be very enlightening to read a report from someone who has kicked a 24/7 GBL habit successfully.

[Birkill]

Its thursday now and im completely free of any after effects. went to the doctors on monday to see if he would give me anything to sleep and he was absolutly usless, basicly told me it was my choice if i continued to take the stuff and i got the impression he didnt realy know what gbl even was! Think im guna have to get myself a new quack for the future. Only positive after afects are that i seem to get lucid dreams each and every night that are realy clear and easy to recall. Take it easy everyone and have a merry christmas!

[vcdman]

well done and good luck

[malsat]

Hi guys, this is my first post.

Mr. G, the dopamine rebound theory is obsolete. It's currently believed that G dependance is a result of GABA-B downregulation, glutamate upregulation and possibly upregulation of other receptors.

Anyone who has been in the 24/7 dosing pattern for more than a week should seek medical assistance, looking for treatment with benzodiazepenes, clonidine and most importantly gabapentin or pregabalin. Considering the MoA of G, plus alcohol and benzodiazpene addiction and withdrawal, it seems extremely likely that glutamate excitotoxicity is part and parcel of the G withdrawal syndrome (ie lasting neurotoxicity, probably manifested in reduced sensation in the exremities, or a tingling/burning/pins and needles sensation in extremities). Treatment with calcium ion channel blockers (gabapentin and pregabalin) could possibly prevent this. As I said, if you've gotten into a 24/7 dosing pattern, seek medical assistance - they may or may not know anything about this condition, so tell them you NEED to be treated with benzodiazepenes, clonidine (for the sweats and high BP/heart rate) and gabapentin or pregabalin.

For anyone who can't get medical assistance, use of a first generation antihistamine (dramamine/benadryl) plus a little alcohol or benzo can help with mild withdrawals, whereas harsher withdrawals need a tapering program (plus the dramamine/benadryl). Suplementing with zinc and magnesium may help prevent neurotoxicity.

[lesbos]

Respect to you Birkill sounds like you've done it!...and I bet you'll always have in the back of your mind how easy it was for SWIY to slowly slip into 24/7 without noticing. SWIM does.

Malsat, i'm glad to see someone else convinced / stating recent opinion that a G** comedown is NOT 'dopamine rebound' as often touted.

I'm in the belief that a sensible dose tapering regime can allow the someone with a moderate or heavy problem to give up unassisted. But we don't live in an ideal world, and sometimes dose tapering is not an option.

SWIM found effective relief from the sweats and tachycardia assosciated with withdrawal was obtained with (relatively excessive doses by normal standards) the non-cardioselective beta blocker Propranolol. Obviously, HR and BP were monitored. I didn't mention this in my original post however as i realise it is out of reach of most people. This is however neither advice nor a suggestion, and would likely be less effective than Clonidine (alpha adrenergic) as stated in the excellent information from Malsat. Please don't try to take any prescription drug to assist you without first getting professional advice.

If you find yourself in serious trouble boys and girls, DO seek medical advice. BUT, don't assume the doctor will have knowledge of these drugs. The information in this thread (although obviously not of official origin) could be invalueable to you and perhaps even the Doc.

SWIY must have used your head to obtain the chemicals to get yourself into difficulties, and you'll need to use it again it to get out.

True I am no-one to say anything, but I think this is an awesome thread - it's even got a happy ending

Stay safe all.