meth to subs

[naodap]

changed from 30mils of green juice(evil) to 2 2mg subbies overnight, doctor said to take after 24hours after i had taken evil juice so that i started getting a cluck on . anyways i waited nearly 34 hours and still wasnt clucking so i two 2 2mgs subbies before i went to bed fell asleep before they dissolved woke up about 5 hours later feeling a little rough not much just a cold shiver so i took the other two he said take as i wud need em in the night . Woke up at around 9am the next dear feelin fine really not even a little discomfort waited till about dinner time then took my first 8mg(which i have been prescribed for two weeks worth after change over) and must admit i thought that i was going to feel in more pain than i thought.
I think i have done well and want to know how long people were on subbies after switching over from the green evil juice untill they werent taking anything and if they had withdrawals.


cheers

[beentheredonethatagain]

I am sorry but I have no idea what your talking about, subbies? , green juice? clucking?
am I the only one? is this methadone?

[rocksmokinmachine]

Originally Posted by beentheredonethatagain

I am sorry but I have no idea what your talking about, subbies? , green juice? clucking?
am I the only one? is this methadone?

Heroin in the UK is distributed in a 1mg/ml green linctus, under supervised consumption so the patient cannot sell the medication on/spit it out etc.

Often called the green evil juice because of the horrible sickly sweet taste, or possibly horrible withdrawals.

'Cluking' refers to going 'cold turkey'. (during withdrawals where the goosebumps never seem to go away)

Subbies refers to Subutex (which is just buprenorphine) and not Subuxone (buprenorphine/naltrexone) mixture which is sold in the US.

Please people, try to use chemical names not even brand name pharamaceutical as to avoid confusion in this international forum.

Also a quick question. Why add naltrexone to buprenorphine? As we all know that buprenorphine is a mixed agonist/antagonist. Are these not dispensed daily in The States? This is the only reason I can think of...

[JaWill88]

Also a quick question. Why add naltrexone to buprenorphine? As we all know that buprenorphine is a mixed agonist/antagonist. Are these not dispensed daily in The States? This is the only reason I can think of...[/quote]

Suboxone (buprenorphine and naltrexone). The naltrexone is added to deteir abuse ie. to keep people from shooting it. when taken sublingually (under the tongue) the naltrexone is not absorbed into the bloodstream and the buprenorphine is. supposedly when injected both drugs are absorbed 100% but appearantly the naloxone doesn't really do any good. it's supposed to send people into withdrawal because it's an antagonist but it doesn't seem to work and the reasons thought of for this are 1. there is just not enough naltrexone 2. buprenorphine is already agonist/antagonist so naltrexone doesn't have much affect. that is why it is hard to get someone out of buprenorphine overdose with antagonists or 3 because of both. anyways there seems to be a lot of confusion that the naltrexone to block other opioids but the only reason why is because buprenorphine binds to the opioid receptors really strongly compared to most all other opioids, nothing to do with naloxone. just wanted to clear that up.

oh yeah as far as the terms go definition wise: clucking, green evil juice, subbies, ect. depends on where one is in the world.

[chillinwill]

suboxone has naloxone in it instead of naltrexone

naloxone is what is also used in Narcan to reverse the effects of an opiate OD

naltrexone is used more for dependence to alcohol or opiates

[JaWill88]

Originally Posted by chillinwill

suboxone has naloxone in it instead of naltrexone

naloxone is what is also used in Narcan to reverse the effects of an opiate OD

naltrexone is used more for dependence to alcohol or opiates

aren't they both antogonists so thats why it should fill the receptors with that and kick the opioids out?

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by JaWill88

Also a quick question. Why add naltrexone to buprenorphine? As we all know that buprenorphine is a mixed agonist/antagonist. Are these not dispensed daily in The States? This is the only reason I can think of...

Suboxone (buprenorphine and naltrexone). The naltrexone is added to deteir abuse ie. to keep people from shooting it. when taken sublingually (under the tongue) the naltrexone is not absorbed into the bloodstream and the buprenorphine is. supposedly when injected both drugs are absorbed 100% but appearantly the naloxone doesn't really do any good. it's supposed to send people into withdrawal because it's an antagonist but it doesn't seem to work and the reasons thought of for this are 1. there is just not enough naltrexone 2. buprenorphine is already agonist/antagonist so naltrexone doesn't have much affect. that is why it is hard to get someone out of buprenorphine overdose with antagonists or 3 because of both. anyways there seems to be a lot of confusion that the naltrexone to block other opioids but the only reason why is because buprenorphine binds to the opioid receptors really strongly compared to most all other opioids, nothing to do with naloxone. just wanted to clear that up.

oh yeah as far as the terms go definition wise: clucking, green evil juice, subbies, ect. depends on where one is in the world.[/quote]
There's absolutely no point to the naloxone.

If you shoot up bupe without naloxone with other opiates in your system, you will go into horrible withdrawals. The naloxone is completely, 100% pointless, and was just some propaganda bullshit they added so the government would approve the suboxone program for large scale use. After you have stabalized on suboxone, you can actually inject it with no ill effects, because the bupe binds to your receptors harder than naloxone can take it out. Many people say when they inject suboxone they only have to use half the amount. Shooting subutex is supposedly much better feeling than suboxone, and my theory for that is the naloxone slightly interferes with fast acting bupe uptake, althought it can't stop it, so you won't get a pleasurable rush off of it or anything.

SWIM has tried injecting suboxone with no ill effects. It is hard to filter, it feels disgusting (swim gets sick even thinking about injecting that nasty orange syrup again), and it doesn't get you high or anything, so I can tell you it is totally pointless and not to bother with it. Maybe if you were opiate naive it would be worth it (heard they got a bupe problem in France), but if you have ever had a taste of H, bupe will feel like nothing more than garbage to you.

[JaWill88]

green evil juice - methadone. clucking - withdrawal. subbies - subutex/suboxone (buprenorphine)

[jerbles]

alright, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[sjonnygee]

Swim understands you mate, he's been on 'subbies' Subutex for over a year through choice - he's just reduced from around 30mg to 3mg and feels fine, just that last little bit to go & that is always going to bite a little, but several friends of swim have told him they were waiting for the smash (serious cluck) after stopping Subutex & it never came, You have to taper 'properly' though - Will let you know in a few weeks when I'm hopefully off. Take Care

[naodap]

hi peeps just thought i wud let u know im totally off everything now had my last 0.4mg subutex tab yesterday 12;30pm and not had anything for over 28 hours and i started my detox program in nov 2006 so i have done my detox in less than tweo years just shows what can be done when u put ur mind to it plus before i started my script i was on about 1and half grams of brown a day so now im


DRUG FREE have some of that

[y0ssarianlives]

Hey man

(This is all prescribed medication I'm discussing, nothing incriminating)

I was on methadone for about 10 months, 120mg, and went to treatment in late July. My goal was (among other things) to get tapered off methdone and switch to suboxone.

They brought me down pretty quickly, got me to 30 mg in about two weeks, then started the induction.

The doctor at this place had just recently got his sub license and was pretty inexperienced with it so I probably went through a bit more discomfort than I needed; because they tapered me off 'done so quickly and still had higher levels of it in my system than if they went slowly and maintained me at 30 for a week or so, I experienced considerable discomfort for about 4 days.

The first day with no 'done was hell, and this doctor decided to set it up so I would get 4 mg initially, then throughout 4 days be given a "COWS" test (c-something opioid withdrawal scale" and if I scored high enough I would get another 2 mg prn every 4 hours, 16 mg max, and my dose would settle at that point as he went on vacation right after starting the induction and wouldn't be around to adjust the dose himself.

So yah, I was kicking pretty badly for the first two days, the subs had no effect whatsoever during that period, but on the third day they subsided enough so I could actually lay there and read (while still shaking, getting chills, thrashing my legs) which was a good sign. Third day I got some sleep, like 4 hours, and the fourth day I started feeling somewhat human again.

So ya, maybe 2 weeks after the initial induction I was stabilized, and am doing decent at 16 mg although I still get some discomfort in the morning before I take the bupe, and at night, as well as having sleep issues.

But all in all, it was worth the switch. I don't get high off it, don't have to go to a clinic daily, and it doesn't sedate me the way methadone did.

If anyone gets one thing out of this post, it should be to make sure you are at least at 30 mgs before you get switched over, which most people know, and try to make sure you have been at 30 for at least three days in a row before making the switch for best results.

[Psych0naut]

^^^^ Just like the poster before me said, one needs to be under 20mg of Methadone a day before switching over to Buprenorphine. This is because Bupe has a ceiling level, above a certain dose it just doesn't have any more effect, that level being 32mg. So wether you take 32mg or 40mg, 40mg won't have more effect han 32mg, cause the Bupe reaches it's ceiling level, the maximum level of effective dosing at 32mg. So if one is on a dose of over 20mg of Methadone a day, the dose is higher than the ceiling level of Bupe that would be given to make the withdrawl subside and help tapering one's dose, instead, the daily dose of Methadone is more than the Bupe's ceiling level and so is not strong enough to overpower the Methadone withdrawl. The lower one's daily dose of Methadone before switching over to Bupe, the better. SWIM plans on tapering to 10mg a day before switching over to Subs.

[y0ssarianlives]

Well that's not quite right...

Suboxone has a dose equivalancy ratio of 1:4 with methadone, meaning 32 mgs of sub is equal to 128 mgs of methadone.

The reason you want to be on a low dose of methadone is because methadone is a full opioid agonist, and suboxone (buprenorphine) is a partial opioid agonist. So what happens if you still have methadone in your system (too much of it for an induction) and you are given subs, is the buprenorphine has a higher affinity for the receptors than methadone, but because it's a PARTIAL opioid agonist and not a full opioid agonist, it won't "set them off" to the same degree that the methadone was, causing you to have horrible, extended withdrawals.

It's called precipitated withdrawal. Nothing to do with the dose of suboxone being lower than the dose of methadone lol. You just need as little methadone in your system as possible because you're going to be bombarding your receptors with a molecule that has a very high affinity for the receptors, higher than methadone, and is only a partial agonist. Meaning your brain will be sitting there nice and comfy with methadone in it's receptors, giving all their effort, then buprenorphine comes along, kicks them out, and gives a different kind of effort that your brain isn't used to. THEN DISASTER.

Or not... if they do it right.

y0ssarianlives added 104 Minutes and 14 Seconds later...

One other quick note explaining the presence of Naloxone in Suboxone, as there is quite a bit of confusion about that on a lot of message boards. Naloxone, contrary to popular belief, is not there to prevent the abuse of other opioids. Meaning, it will not counteract the effects of say, Heroin, if someone were to use that while on Suboxone. Buprenorphine has a higher affinity than naloxone, so if someone is on a bupe maintenance program, and they injected a dose of suboxone, the naloxone would have no effect at all. It is NOT there to block the effects of other illicit opioid use. Bupe has such a high affinity for the receptors that it exhibits what is called a "blockade effect", meaning most other opioids cannot displace the bupe molecules from the opioid receptors. THAT is what prevents other opioids from affecting your brain while you are on buprenorphine, not the naloxone.

The Naloxone is present for one reason only: to attempt to prevent the diversion and abuse of Suboxone. The theory goes that if an opioid user gets ahold of some Suboxone, and attempts to inject it, the naloxone will act as the antagonist that it is, and instantly kick the attempted user into WD's. The studies that have been done on whether this actually happens or not due to the buprenorphine's higher affinity indicate that this does not always happen, but in theory that's what it is supposed to do.

To someone on a Bupe maintanance program, injecting suboxone would run no risk of experiencing any negative effects from the Naloxone due to the fact that they already have a large amount of bupe molecules bound to their receptors, which would NOT be displaced by the Naloxone. This is why they put the Naloxone in: to attempt to deter individuals not on a maintenance program from abusing it. Such an individual would not have Bupe molecules bound to their receptors, meaning the naloxone would have nothing blocking it from binding. Then, they get sick.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Thanks for the explanation, didn't know that regarding why one needs to be on a low dose of Methadone before switching o...
	Good information

[Psych0naut]

Thanks, I never knew that, I always thought it was because of the ceiling level of Bupe, now I know what really is the reason. You never stop learning new things on D-F!

[y0ssarianlives]

It's naloxone, not naltrexone. And see my post right above yours for the reasons surrounding that.

[dyingtomorrow]

If you're talking to me, the first 2 paragraphs were part of JaWill's quote - don't know why it wasn't put in the quote box, and I can't edit. The bottom 2 paragraphs are mine.

[Methadrone]

Swim knows afoaf who has done the switch from green (Methadone) to subbies (subutex) and said the first few days were 'hell'. This has put swim off doing it although swim thinks it would be the next step to becoming clean. Afoaf refers to subbies (subutex) as a 'wonder drug' however having recently bumped into afoaf swim found afoaf was back on green (Methadone).

Swim thinks and has been told that subbies send swie into a cluck if any other opiates are taken on top of them. Hence the reason swim is reluctant to make the change. Swim does not want to go through a horrible few days if they can manage to taper down using just the green. Swim finds this very hard to do though and may have to bite the bullet and go down the subutex route if swim is to ever become drug free.

[Psych0naut]

Originally Posted by Methadrone

Swim knows afoaf who has done the switch from green (Methadone) to subbies (subutex) and said the first few days were 'hell'. This has put swim off doing it although swim thinks it would be the next step to becoming clean. Afoaf refers to subbies (subutex) as a 'wonder drug' however having recently bumped into afoaf swim found afoaf was back on green (Methadone).

Swim thinks and has been told that subbies send swie into a cluck if any other opiates are taken on top of them. Hence the reason swim is reluctant to make the change. Swim does not want to go through a horrible few days if they can manage to taper down using just the green. Swim finds this very hard to do though and may have to bite the bullet and go down the subutex route if swim is to ever become drug free.

Buprenorphine is a wonder drug, in the sense that if one has tapered Methadone far enough, till getting to the point of using less than 20mg a day, one could switch to using Bupe. The Bupe is then used for only a very short period, no more than 2 weeks max, but often even only a week. By doing a fast taper for only a short period, one can completely stop taking opioids without suffering ANY withdrawls! If one has tapered to just a few mg of Methadone a day, and then stops taking it completely, the withdrawls can be hell, and have a duration of weeks or even months. If switching over to Bupe when arriving at a low dose through tapering, one can taper and stop completely without any pain. So in that sense, Bupe can be a miracle drug, but only when used with the right tapering schedule/regimen.

[dyingtomorrow]

If you are going to switch from methadone to subbies, SWIM says that going back to heroin a few days beforehand will save you A SHITLOAD OF HELL.

[Methadrone]

swim says thanks dyingtomorrow and swim will take that onboard and also swim will inform afoaf when swim next sees afoaf.

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by Methadrone

swim says thanks dyingtomorrow and swim will take that onboard and also swim will inform afoaf when swim next sees afoaf.

NP, tell me how it turns out. Dunno if you already saw, but I posted in a couple threads a totally painless and fast Bupe schedule (except the first day of course), which SWIM has first hand experience with, and has seen himself it work for his friends.

But seriously if SWIY can get some dope, don't listen to anyone trying to tell SWIY to switch from methadone. As we all know, H clears out of your system fast, so you have to go through less time and hell to wait until you can hop on the subs. You have to linger on methadone in half to full withdrawals for like 3-4X longer than H before you can switch, or you will REALLY regret it, even if you are on a low amount of it. If SWIY wants to save themselves the pain and go the H route, make sure to do it for a couple days to clear the meth totally out (and try not to go overboard and jack your tolerance back up... lol).

P.S. ("you" as in "anyone")
The best way to make the switch from H to Sub is to do your last decent shot in the early morning. Go all day, hopefully you'll be a little uncomfortable at night, and just do barely enough so "you" can sleep, preferably just whatever cotton residue you have left and not fresh shit. Take some sleeping pills too to knock you out as long as possible. Sleep as long as you can, then wait as long as you can in the morning thru the sickness, and take it if at least 12 hours has passed. The point of this is so SWIY can put at least 12 hours under your belt since your last (small) shot and be unconscious and not feeling the anxiety and sweats for most of it. Doing your last bit of H during the day, and having to wait AWAKE all 12 hours thru the anxiety and onset of withdrawals SUCKS MUCH MUCH worse than the way I just described.

Also, if you are really really hurting even after taking the suboxone, wait about 2 hours. If you are still feeling horrible, you can do a little bit of dope on top of the suboxone. Again, preferably just cotton dregs. It's not going to get you high, but it will take some of the pain away and let you sleep later that night. Do as little as possible of course. You'll be fine because your next dose isn't for 24 hours, so it will be gone by then. Again, this is only if you are feeling really horrible. By doing this, you're putting off the pain to some degree, but it will also be less and a lot more manageable.

[Dickon]

SWIM is possibly the stupidest man on earth if the following Psych0naut quote is true : "By doing a fast taper for only a short period, one can completely stop taking opioids without suffering ANY withdrawls". SWIM can only take comfort from the character-building nature of his methadone WDs. lol. SWIM actually thinks pigs flying is infinitely more likely than a totally painless withdrawal! SWIM thinks they'd be lots of 10-day clean lambs gamboling all over DF going "wayhay I'm clean. It was soooooo easy. Don't know why I didn't do it earlier!", so far old cynical-face hasn't seen one such lamb, but maybe SWIM is pissed off that on day 12 of his methadone w.d. (even after a quick taper from 225mg/day to 5mg/day in about 5 weeks) he hasn't completely shaken the cold-turkey, although it's getting better every day!

SWIM'd love to hear from anyone who has actually done this painlessly. Well damn it, no I don't think SWIM would. A painless withdrawal would just be an incentive to go out and use all over again at least to those who really aren't SWIM.

SWIM is winning and wishes best of luck to all trying to carve the turkey out of existence! Joy-joy super-happy times ahead for all who succeed, I guarantee, or your habit back!

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by Dickon

SWIM is possibly the stupidest man on earth if the following Psych0naut quote is true : "By doing a fast taper for only a short period, one can completely stop taking opioids without suffering ANY withdrawls". SWIM can only take comfort from the character-building nature of his methadone WDs. lol. SWIM actually thinks pigs flying is infinitely more likely than a totally painless withdrawal! SWIM thinks they'd be lots of 10-day clean lambs gamboling all over DF going "wayhay I'm clean. It was soooooo easy. Don't know why I didn't do it earlier!", so far old cynical-face hasn't seen one such lamb, but maybe SWIM is pissed off that on day 12 of his methadone w.d. (even after a quick taper from 225mg/day to 5mg/day in about 5 weeks) he hasn't completely shaken the cold-turkey, although it's getting better every day!

SWIM'd love to hear from anyone who has actually done this painlessly. Well damn it, no I don't think SWIM would. A painless withdrawal would just be an incentive to go out and use all over again at least to those who really aren't SWIM.

SWIM is winning and wishes best of luck to all trying to carve the turkey out of existence! Joy-joy super-happy times ahead for all who succeed, I guarantee, or your habit back!

I've been posting that all over the board in suboxone threads for quite a while now. SWIM has personal experience doing it, and has seen it work on his friends. I even posted a suboxone mg tapering schedule multiple times which will take you from 8 mg to dust with no withdrawals at all beyond the 1st day where you will feel shitty, in 2-3 weeks. Dropping to zero is always going to be a little rough at the very least, but it's much easier the less time you've been using subs. Those detailed posts of mine are all still on the front pages of the Opiate Addiction and Heroin forums.

[Richard_smoker]

it's true. especially if you can get the taper in early enough...

if you can catch yourself within the first couple months of being on subutex/suboxone/buprenorphine, then a rapid taper is quite simple. the long half-life and partial agonist effects will be especially forgiving to your mental and physical states.

however, if you've taken buprenorphine for a year or more, the taper will require a much more structured plan. It has been said in the medical community that a 1mg per month decrease in dose is minimally uncomfortable. I'd have to say that I personally found the w/d to last between 3-4 weeks for cold-turkey kicking. therefore, it will be best to slowly taper--even halving your dose every 2-4 weeks for optimum results (if already addicted to bupe). even doses as small as 0.2mg are effective at combatting w/d and at treating pain. Remember this when planning your taper. the tiniest pieces of dust are effective...just like taking a massive megadose is very similar to regular doses. the drug is very powerful at small doses, but relatively weak at higher doses. for this reason, it is a godsend at teaching an addict how to re-learn relatively normal patterns before the final step of kicking the habit.

FIGHT THE POWER--DICK