What to do when others drug users intelligence is truely depressing?

[geezaman]

Without being big headed, (what a great start to potential big headedness) as SWIM knows in some areas his own intelligence is very lacking. What are responsible drug users meant to do when they find themselves trying to help others who it seems missed out on their full portion of intelligence?

We are not talking drug safety warden with whistle and hat, warning stoner's that lighters may get hot, but a normal reasonably intelligent drug user who occasionally gets asked for advice.

SWIM has read threads on here before where it seemed to be happening, and it has happened to SWIM on here and in real life. SWIMs sure other members here must have experienced it also.

Any good solutions?
percevearence?
abandonment?
a loud noise to scare the high horse from under SWIM?
SWIYs suggestions please

Reputation Comments on this post:

On your high horse or on *a* high horse?

[ReAlitY-HoLds-NonE]

Depends highly on the person... SWIM went through a bit to much acid a bit to often, and didnt realize what it was doing to him (Yes, agreed there may not be any dangers for some people... but it was affecting SWIM)... and the only thing SWIM's friends could do to stop was to stand up to his dealer and tell him that he needs to stop selling it to SWIM... especially as he was picking up for solo trips...
SWIM was very, very p*ssed off, needless to say, but now can see what he must have been like looking back on it, and much prefers it now when he trips in a group.
-They knew SWIM wouldnt have stopped no-matter how much they nagged or whined, so they cut off his source at the time. (probably wouldnt recommend this though)

Another story is about SWIM's sister and friend, who both became pill-wh*res at diffirent times over the last few years. For SWIM's sister it was simply a case of her boyfriend ending it with her, and for SWIM's friend it was simply a matter of critisizing him (as said in the film revolver- "nothing hurts more than humiliation and a little money loss")...

Abondonment would only work in a situation where an individual is dependant on SWIM for something, be it material or imaterial, it worked for SWIM's sister...
Percerverance only works with people who see themselves as weak in their drug usage anyway (as the percerverance that SWIM would use would decay and erode any confidence and increase that doubt) -didnt work for SWIM...

Generally critisizing in a friendly way will work with time...

But the idea of the load noise.. theres a good one -oversmoke someone till they get sick or force a bad trip upon someone (Very Very Harsh!! -would only ever do it as a last resort... this is just, WRONG!)

...it is, however, all down to the individual coming to a realization in their own time, which unfortunantly doesnt always happen... only interfer if it affects other people, because if it isnt affecting anyone around that person, they arent getting any negative affects, so are all cool.. for now..

[El Calico Loco]

Love, reason, and - most of all - patience. Think like you're dealing with a small child.

That said, no force on Earth or in Heaven can save a fool from himself.


ECL

[MrG]

Nah, I'm going for the loud noise there GM - LOL.

Seriously though, if you can't get through to some people, just leave 'em to Darwin.

[JaWill88]

swim is in outpatient treatment and swim went to talk to his counselors today. swim went to detox on halloween to get off suboxone. swim was at highest dose possible (32mg). swim feels like shit right now but ate some clonazepam a while ago and is a little drowsy right now.. anyways one of swims counselors was trying to tell swim how suboxone and subutex are quite different from one another and one is way harder to get off of then the other. anyone on either of these medications knows buprenorphine is the only drug that gets in the blood if taken correctly. when taken correctly the naloxone in suboxone is inefective and very trace amounts possibly get in but is so small it couldnt have an effect. but swims counselor got all pissy and said how she went to a class and they are chemically different from one another and suboxone is really hard to get off while subutex has no withdrawal what so ever. this is the most retarded thing swim ever heard. its annoying when swim knows so much more then the chemical dependency counselors and swim knows way way way more about every single drug then them and they try and tell swim he doesnt know what hes talking about. sorry swim is just rambling but is out of it right now from that clonazepaml. anyways the point is swim knows way more then these stupid counselors and they are trying to tell swim what he should do. how can they if they don't know anything?!?!?!?!!!! sorry swim is just pissed. oh yeah she also said how buprenorphine isnt actually an opioid it just acts like one and there is no such thing as withdrawal from buprenorphine. well swim is living proof that there is withdrawal from buprenorphine cause swim has been vomiting and shitting out his insides. his muscles ache. his joints hurt. his stomach feels like it churning. hes hot and cold at the same time. he has to change his clothes every hour cause they are drenched in sweat. he is hungy but he cant eat. he is tired but he cant sleep. and swim knows he doesnt have a fucking flu. sound like withdrawal to me. is it just swim and is swim really wrong about all of this, or are his counselors just fucking retarded? any insight on this from any swiys?

[Lettish]

My friend is new to the drug scene and is a novice/amateur user. However, since browsing DF, he has learned a lot, and is really taking in as much as knowledge and advice as possible. The more he knows, the safer he will be. He notices very often how people refer to specific measurements of dosage (mg), which fascinates him. He hopes eventually he will pick this up and be able to use it wisely.

My friend's friends, who are more experienced and older than him, offer great advice. Whenever he asks what might seem like a silly question, they have no problem in answering honestly. This is always good to have, he feels.

In conclusion, my friend wants to say, that everyone starts somewhere, and naturally learns more as time goes on. So, be gentle on those that aren't as drug-knowledged as Swiy, and help them learn.

[old hippie 56]

The wise ones say patience is a virtue.
But after the patience has wore thin, take MrG advice and leave them to Darwin.

[BobTheGreat]

Originally Posted by MrG

Seriously though, if you can't get through to some people, just leave 'em to Darwin.

BINGO! For swim some will listen and keep an open mind. Others will ignore so dont waste swiy breath on these ppl. Some will also take advice wrong so be catious of an info given. For example, Swim told his friend about 5htp to help with the aftermath of rolling. He took it to the exteme and thought he could roll as often as he wanted if he took 5htp. This came up on the ride back from a rave last weekend. Swim corrected him but who knows if he will follow the advice. Swim's guess is no but what can one do. It's his life not swims.

[Mint boi]

My Ferret knows someone who was planning on taking ecstasy, in a convo it came up that this guy thought that acid and ecstasy were the same thing... my ferret almost cried

[El Calico Loco]

Originally Posted by BobTheGreat

BINGO! For swim some will listen and keep an open mind. Others will ignore so dont waste swiy breath on these ppl.

True. There is a world of difference between naive and willful ignorance. The former is forgivable. Once ignorance has been reinforced into obstinance by arrogance, however...fuck 'em.


ECL

[fnord]

Originally Posted by JaWill88

swim is in outpatient treatment and swim went to talk to his counselors today. swim went to detox on halloween to get off suboxone. swim was at highest dose possible (32mg). swim feels like shit right now but ate some clonazepam a while ago and is a little drowsy right now.. anyways one of swims counselors was trying to tell swim how suboxone and subutex are quite different from one another and one is way harder to get off of then the other. anyone on either of these medications knows buprenorphine is the only drug that gets in the blood if taken correctly. when taken correctly the naloxone in suboxone is inefective and very trace amounts possibly get in but is so small it couldnt have an effect. but swims counselor got all pissy and said how she went to a class and they are chemically different from one another and suboxone is really hard to get off while subutex has no withdrawal what so ever. this is the most retarded thing swim ever heard. its annoying when swim knows so much more then the chemical dependency counselors and swim knows way way way more about every single drug then them and they try and tell swim he doesnt know what hes talking about. sorry swim is just rambling but is out of it right now from that clonazepaml. anyways the point is swim knows way more then these stupid counselors and they are trying to tell swim what he should do. how can they if they don't know anything?!?!?!?!!!! sorry swim is just pissed. oh yeah she also said how buprenorphine isnt actually an opioid it just acts like one and there is no such thing as withdrawal from buprenorphine. well swim is living proof that there is withdrawal from buprenorphine cause swim has been vomiting and shitting out his insides. his muscles ache. his joints hurt. his stomach feels like it churning. hes hot and cold at the same time. he has to change his clothes every hour cause they are drenched in sweat. he is hungy but he cant eat. he is tired but he cant sleep. and swim knows he doesnt have a fucking flu. sound like withdrawal to me. is it just swim and is swim really wrong about all of this, or are his counselors just fucking retarded? any insight on this from any swiys?

Buprenorphine is a partial opiate agonist that has a high affinity to binding to the receptor site. Narcan or naloxon can't knock it off the receptor site most of the time thats why in buprenorphine overdoses they use a respritory stimulant instead. Buprenorphine stimulates the opiate receptor site but dosen't give the full effects thats why it's a partial agonist as opposed to a full one (like methadone or heroin). SWIM came off of 24 mg sub. and felt like shit not as bad as methadone or heroin but it still sucks. SWIM feels the same way sometimes SWIM knows more about my problems than those who are treating me. Suboxone has been known about for a while but it's use for treatment of opiate addiction was just recently approved. even though SWIM knows of detoxes that have been using it for that purpose for years because it works.

[beentheredonethatagain]

I guess when something someone is planning to put into there system is going to possibly put them at risk of serious consequences, a helpful thing to do is try to explain in a clear and relaxed tone of the pending dangers.

You may have to talk to them on a level that puts both of you on a level plateau, should it become necessary.

Thinking about my history and the people who guided me in the world of intoxicants, most were nice and helpful, never imposing there knowledge as the end all to be all.

Treating a person's desire to try a new substance or method of administration with respect , will usually get their ear.

Pressure to heed warning and abandon the thought , will be futile.

[entheogensmurf]

SWIY, could you please provide some examples of advice questions that have been presented?

I see no high horse mentality in SWIY's post.

[geezaman]

SWIM cant think of any that exactly match his first post, but, examples that would fall in that area would be (the following are from various people SWIM speaks with)

" i felt ill so took lots of lemsip (cough and cold medicine available without prescription in all chemists in UK) will i be sick if i go out and get hammered" (excessively drunk) for that SWIM web searched lemsips ingredients, and suggested if they were ill as it was they probably shouldn't be getting hammered anyway, but as far as SWIM could tell a few drinks should be fine. the asker wanted an answer, but from SWIMs knowledge would probably get hammered whatever he said.

SWIM was doing nitrous with someone who was new to it, after all the whippets had gone, the noob started trying to re-crack them, SWIM explained if there was a hole in the end they were empty, and that they went from liquid to gas etc, SWIM came back a while later to find the guy frantically trying to crack more.

a friend of SWIMs inquired about mdma safety etc intending to try it, SWIM told the person the best of his knowledge and gave her some sites to read further, the week after, one of her friends while mildly drunk took some knowing nothing about it, freaked out, the person SWIM had informed allowed her friend to drink 1 liter of water in 5 mins... the girl on mdma had not been dancing, or doing anything to sweat, the "informed" girl then 10 mins later encouraged the girl on mdma to drink another pint of water as she had drunk the first liter so quickly.

The first and third included the same person, as SWIYs may see these annoyances range from inconsequential, to pretty damn serious. SWIM has good knowledge, and expresses himself as well as most people, he is considered by all who know him and know he does drugs as responsible. There have been many other similar things, these being the first to spring to mind. In the third incident SWIM was next door asleep, but the informed girl said she couldn't be bothered to try and get SWIM up.

[mybloopwentsplat]

it is plain wrong to impose a bad trip on anyone for any reason. If not evil, then damn close. Love is the only way, and that would not be love now would it?

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by geezaman

Without being big headed, (what a great start to potential big headedness) as SWIM knows in some areas his own intelligence is very lacking. What are responsible drug users meant to do when they find themselves trying to help others who it seems missed out on their full portion of intelligence?

We are not talking drug safety warden with whistle and hat, warning stoner's that lighters may get hot, but a normal reasonably intelligent drug user who occasionally gets asked for advice.

SWIM has read threads on here before where it seemed to be happening, and it has happened to SWIM on here and in real life. SWIMs sure other members here must have experienced it also.

Any good solutions?
percevearence?
abandonment?
a loud noise to scare the high horse from under SWIM?
SWIYs suggestions please

How would you deal with nonusers who appear to have a less than impressive mental aptitude? They probably do as much silly stuff as incompetent drug users, only they choose to take different risks. They can also be just as annoying. Maybe it would be easier for you to answer this question first and then reexamine the question of this thread.

Originally Posted by El Calico Loco

That said, no force on Earth or in Heaven can save a fool from himself.

"He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever."

Originally Posted by BobTheGreat

BINGO! For swim some will listen and keep an open mind. Others will ignore so dont waste swiy breath on these ppl. Some will also take advice wrong so be catious of an info given. For example, Swim told his friend about 5htp to help with the aftermath of rolling. He took it to the exteme and thought he could roll as often as he wanted if he took 5htp. This came up on the ride back from a rave last weekend. Swim corrected him but who knows if he will follow the advice. Swim's guess is no but what can one do. It's his life not swims.

You have to be careful giving out advice, as it can be misconstrued and applied in a dangerous manner. I feel its best to go over the risks of use and make sure the person develops a decent understanding of what he/she is getting in to before advising how to minimize them. Some people don't want to hear about the risks, or may be turned off if you speak didactically or with a condescending tone or demeanor. If you are friends with the person you should be able to get the message in over time, so don't press it too hard, but if someone is going to do something that may inflict harm on him/her or others (like driving under the influence of intoxicating substances or consuming RCs without a scale, etc.) you should definitely attempt to intervene. Others' perceptions of you is important for this, as if they don't respect you or your knowledge its likely they won't pay much attention to what you have to say. My panda has had friends he hadn't spoken to in years call him up to ask a drug related question because they weren't sure where to find trustworthy information, just because they remembered the panda's willingness to impart knowledge and advise so that others could stay safe. Likewise, some people my panda knew would ask him to assist when trying new substances or ones they weren't sure about (such as psychedelics) as they felt they could trust him on the matter.

It comes down to a few fundamental factors I feel. The more comfortable you are with what you are talking about, the better you can articulate the reasoning behind harm reduction techniques and how to implement them. The more competent you appear when proffering advice, the more likely it is that people will listen. If you are affable and are at ease with people in general, it will be easier to talk to them about serious issues like being safe while using drugs. If you don't know the information, can't explain the information, can't easily discuss a potentially sensitive topic with the people in question, etc., then don't just abandon them to fate / natural selection, at least direct them to erowid or drugs-forum so they know of a good information source.


About swiy and his friend; how exactly did swiy explain 5-HTP to his buddy? Did he just say it could help with comedowns to replenish serotonin? Or did he explain that there is limited evidence supporting this practice and that because we don't yet know the extent to which MDMA-use results in neurotoxicity it is better to limit the amount of rolling and make it count each time? With the latter swiy could then mention 5-HTP as a way to reduce 'crash' effects the next day and to make for a smoother comedown, and it may possibly help with other stuff. My panda found that making people aware of the possible consequences for their actions can help encourage reduced and safer use, and specific harm reduction techniques should be an adjunct to a responsible attitude towards drugs in general. Setting an example for others is also important as novice or less knowledgeable users often will look to those with more experience for guidance, so don't try to talk harm reduction and then turn around and step beyond your own guidelines!

Originally Posted by beentheredonethatagain

I guess when something someone is planning to put into there system is going to possibly put them at risk of serious consequences, a helpful thing to do is try to explain in a clear and relaxed tone of the pending dangers.

You may have to talk to them on a level that puts both of you on a level plateau, should it become necessary.

Thinking about my history and the people who guided me in the world of intoxicants, most were nice and helpful, never imposing there knowledge as the end all to be all.

Treating a person's desire to try a new substance or method of administration with respect , will usually get their ear.

Pressure to heed warning and abandon the thought , will be futile.

Well said.

Concerning the last line, my panda finds that to be true much of the time. However, you can often succeed in delaying fulfillment of the thought, especially if its someone trying something new or someone who has already voiced concern with their own drug habits. This works well for psychedelics when someone is obviously not prepared to go on a trip or the setting isn't right or other things of that nature. Discuss set and setting and maybe point out downsides to tripping right then and there. You don't want to scare a person into a bad trip if they do take it, but maybe you could dissuade them for the time being. This has also worked to dissuade people with addictive personalities from trying certain stimulants in the past, or at least delaying onset of use. My panda would just give his honest opinion about the drug, go over both the ups and downs, and then ask why the person really wanted to do it? You are right about pressure not working though, it has to be subtly applied (so that it isn't explicit or otherwise obvious that you are trying to stop a person from doing something, its more of you just making sure the person has the facts and understands the whole situation) and trying to force things on people generally backfires.

Originally Posted by mybloopwentsplat

it is plain wrong to impose a bad trip on anyone for any reason. If not evil, then damn close. Love is the only way, and that would not be love now would it?

Depends, do you believe in tough love?


I agree with the general idea, but think "impose a bad trip" is a bit ambiguous. Screwing around with people to try and get them to freak out is a dick move. Trying to get people to open up about emotionally sensitive issues that will likely generate negative vibes can go badly and make for a bad time, but sometimes it can help by allowing the person to deal with stuff they've been closing inside. I guess that wouldn't be imposing a bad trip though as the other person would have to initiate the conversation or at least give consent to speak about it. Nevermind!

Reputation Comments on this post:

thank you for the insight, well taken

[FuBai]

The best thing you can do is give them accurate information and advice, ask them if they understand and then leave them to it. Don't get involved in a manner such as cutting of the source - what makes you any different from the authorities you oppose if you do this? Remember the government claims to have your best interests at heart as well. You also risk driving away or isolating the individual in question. If we are talking about people going too far or becoming addicted tell them your worries in a casual way - "How much of that stuff are you smoking? I remember when I was smoking everyday, just seemed to lose track of reality all the time, forgetting things you know?" Showing some sort of shared experience can help increase the bond and once the bond is good enough just lead by example, don't criticise, just drop the occasional comment in a casual fashion and appear happy and contented with only using a substance once in a while. What people who fall into addiction are often chasing isn't the high per se but the happy or removed state of mind.

As to simply stupid people you can do no more than tell them the facts, check to see if they understand them and let the get on with it.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good advice

[geezaman]

At the time SWIM wrote the opening post he was annoyed, the particular individual who was involved with two of the examples he gave SWIM realises now his situation has changed was just a very annoying individual all over (that sounds like an easy escape.. the individual confuses SWIM and he is unable to adequately explain why to himself or anyone else).
SWIMs basis for the question was the assumption that at some point almost every user here must have been asked for advice regarding drugs, and on occasion the good information given have been ignored leading to bad or potentially bad events. SWIM was interested to see how others dealt with this.

@ SWIBajeda,
SWIY suggested SWIM consider how he would deal with such less than sensible behaviour of none drug users. SWIM did consider this and found that the aspects of his life involving drugs are probably the most dangerous. It is also other than fixing things, outdoors survival type things, and DIY based things the only thing SWIM is to some degree (amongst those he mixes with in RL) an expert, with any authority to offer advice.
With non users if they do mess up it is unlikely to have a negative effect on society or have wider implications on a group in society. When the situation is related to drugs someone messing up could easily change; others views on drugs, others views of those who use them, those peoples opinions of future possible legalization of some drugs etc. If SWIM can keep people who know him safe to any degree then there may well be a few less people holding and projecting the view that "they once did E and nearly died thus all drugs are bad", good safe advice has the potential to stop another lucy betts occuring. That name lives with SWIM because in the UK while SWIM was at school and as far as he is aware still now, her story and her distraught parents are shown to kids from age 13-16, and the the message the classes leave you to enter the adult world with is effectively- "take ecstasy and you die, and the people you care about will be hurt forever". If a small piece of good advice from SWIM can stop someone he knows or someone those people may speak with being the name a student associates with ecstasy death 20years from now it seems important, perhaps more importantly drug propaganda aside, someone is still alive who might not be otherwise.

SWIM feels a part of an educated drug using community, and feeling it wishes to promote and protect it. If not promote to lessen the small minded uninformed views and propaganda he knows most of the society he finds himself in hold.

[Melalicious]

swim often gets frustrated with her friends that are like this! she sometimes feels like shes a drug dictionary to some "slower" friends! and as much as swim likes to talk and share info lol, swim thinks when u start to notice that its not sinking in, to just stop! otherwise swim gets frustrated repeating repeating repeating herself and ends up biting heads off lol!

maybe this swimmer needs to learn some more paitents, or maybe swims friends jus need to pick up a book or have a look around the net for the info they want!

its always all good giving others advise,when asked or concerned, but its when it becomes helpful and guidance that swim feels like shes done her job! actions speak louder then words swim sometimes believes

Reputation Comments on this post:

OZZIE GURL GIVE IT TO THEM

[Euthanatos93420]

It's not so much the lack of intellectual capacity as it is 'just get high' mentality which does kinda go hand in hand. To quote swim, "I just want someone who TRIPS LIKE I DO."

Reputation Comments on this post:

nig so do I, just haVE SOME OF THIS LUV AND FORGET ABOUT IT

[sweetsugar]

with some people, no matter how much advise given or how much they maybe aware of dangers, they may/will/need to find out for themselves, learning from their own actions/experiences ~ then comes reason, understanding - love

Reputation Comments on this post:

nice4 the sweet sug

[fiveleggedrat]

Swim has pointed some less than intelligent drug users to DF save them from killing themselves, yet they deny everyone here actually knows anything, and says they are all full of shit since it is "The Internet".

[Focus]

Originally Posted by fiveleggedrat

Swim has pointed some less than intelligent drug users to DF save them from killing themselves, yet they deny everyone here actually knows anything, and says they are all full of shit since it is "The Internet".

That's really very sad - this site is the best my cat has seen: members' pets are noticeably non-judgmental and supportive.

This is a problem which extends far beyond drug usage - even normally intelligent animals will ignore your domesticated companion, scorn what they say, even break up friendships over sensible advice given with the best of intentions - if that advice happens to be totally contrary to what they actually want to do.

The difficulty for cats is making sure that the advice is given in as objective and non-critical a way as possible. Then stand back and hope that if they don't take the advice immediately, they'll take it on board and use it before things get too bad.

[lostmente]

apparent lack of intelligence is annoying, you have to deal with it regardless of where it comes from but:

those who are unaware
-through mis-information / mis-perception
-through lack of experiences

those who do not care
-people out to cause harm
-people who think harm is inevitable

not matter what the case though, when it comes to drugs being a vice, people will do anything to deny this...even admit to it being a vice but say it doesn't matter but usually pretend that they need it to get passed something, its not a requirement but it does have potential to help.

[Felix Guattari]

What never ceases to amaze me is the rare (or so I like to believe) breed of individual who believes every scare-story they hear about 'drugs'... but still consumes them in unheard-of quantities in marathon binges.

If SWiM believed that LSD burned holes in the cerebrum and instilled in the user an uncontrollable urge to throw themselves from 20-story buildings, and that pot turned one into an immobile, subhuman vegetable, a la Stoners in the Mist, he would never have touched either substance for all the money in the world.