Culture - Guru Takes Massive Dose of LSD With No Effect

[Lobsang]

Well we know one thing for sure. We will never know if it really happened, if Alpert was lying or if he was tricked by the guru. Or if the LSD had degraded in the sun and heat. Who knows? But from my own perspective I find Ram Das to be a little delusional by some of the things he has said. But who am I to judge? I could be totally wrong. Lets say for the sake of arguement that it did really happen. Perhaps the neurology of the guru had been somehow augmented by his practices. Making his nervous system similar to someone who has taken LSD for days or weeks. The state where my cat says you need to take very high doses to get an effect. And when you do get an effect it is an almost zenlike experince with no "edge" to it. So if the guru naturally had an already neurochemically prepared nervous system the acid would not hit him hard or "wire" him. Instead of his mind being like a tight spring when he took the acid it was already a spring that was loose and uncoiled. But if I was a gambler I would gamble on the story not being accurate in some way. Many options exist. Ram Dass could be impressionable, delusional or creating the story for his agenda.

In any event I too have heard the story of the two buddhist priests that were given LSD. I heard that they became so uncomfortable that the experience needed to be terminated (what ever that means). But I do not remember where I read it.

And lastly my cheshire cat says that one time he took a large dose of LSD. About 15 minutes after he took it his room mate got hurt and had to be rushed to the Emergency Room. My cat had to go with him and was in the ER for about 3 hours. But interestingly enough my cat did not start tripping until the episode was over and he was home. So he is aware that it is possible for the nervous system in some way to hold back the world from collapsing until the time is right for it to happen. So that is something else to think about. Not that it applies here but I thought I would say it. As I have heard this phenomena described in print as well.

[Panthers007]

Alpert was a rather "unique" character. After his guru allowed a name-change to Ram Dass, he lived out of his blue VW-squareback outside Harvard Square, Massachusetts. He went trolling for young teenage boys to worship him and take off their clothes. I know. I lived there.

Anywho - I have a hard time buying his stories. He was going through some rather profound alterations of consciousness at the time: Be a shrink and accept being gay was a mental illness? Electro-Shock & Psycho-surgery to cure? Or it's okay to be gay. Poor Ram Dass (of course it is!).

So I wouldn't put too much stock in him at this time of authoring such as 'Be Here Now' and 'The Only Dance There Is.'

Be glad that many articles of psychological baggage has been removed since his period. But we have a few more to go within our respective cultures.

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

...Be a shrink and accept being gay was a mental illness? Electro-Shock & Psycho-surgery to cure? Or it's okay to be gay. Poor Ram Dass (of course it is!).

I've heard that some people made up a cruel variation of the name Ram Dass, which referred to his being gay! Some people have no respect for the sacred. Who can guess what it was?

[chl182]

What is it? Swim really has no idea...

All this talk about meditation and it's effects. Swim has tried meditating and focusing on swim's breath. But swim has never had any experiences or trips. The only thing swim has after a meditation session is a calmer mind. Swim thinks swim's doing some parts wrong. Perhaps someone could post a link or teach swim the proper techniques of meditation...
This would not happen if swim had access to lsd. Awful hard to find and get where swim comes from

[psyche]

Ah, Very funny... Ram'd Ass.

[Panthers007]

That's what everyone in Cambridge called him. But if someone wanted to get high, his VW was easy to spot and the cops never lifted a finger about him. He was a city-treasure. Brought in revenue for the chamber of commerce by merely being present.

[Expat98]

There is an old Psychedelic Review article in the DF archives written by Timothy Leary called, "Programmed Communication During Experiences With DMT". He describes the first time he tried DMT together with a Hindu monk and a few other people. Here is what he had to say about the Hindu monk's experience:

"Immediately after my first DMT voyage the drug was administered to the Hindu monk. This dedicated man had spent fourteen years in meditation and renunciation. He was a sannyasin, entitled to wear the sacred saffron robe. He has participated in several psychedelic drug sessions with extremely positive results and was convinced that the biochemical road to samadhi was not only valid but perhaps the most natural method for people living in a technological civilization.

His reaction to DMT was, however, confusing and unpleasant. Catapulted into a sudden ego-loss, he struggled to rationalize his experience in terms of classic Hindu techniques. He kept looking up at the group in puzzled helplessness. Promptly at twenty-five minutes he sat up, laughed, and said, "What a trip that was. I really got trapped in karmic hallucinations!"

The lesson was clear. DMT, like the other psychedelic keys, could open an infinity of possibilities. Set, setting, suggestibility, temperamental background were always there as filters through which the ecstatic experience could be distorted."

***

BTW, the article is a great read:

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...hp?linkid=2990

[Songcycle67]

Just to throw this out there: at one point Ram Dass claimed that the reason babies are born premature or are aborted is because they "chose" to have this done before being put in the womb.

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by songcycle67

Just to throw this out there: at one point Ram Dass claimed that the reason babies are born premature or are aborted is because they "chose" to have this done before being put in the womb.

Statements like that are why I question the "sanity" or "sincerity" of Alpert. Leary was asked about the statement made by Alpert and Leary kind of chuckled and said that is was Alpert being "political".

In any event you can study with Ram Dass. He is part of a new age seminar. You can not only hear him speak but get massages and other luxuries too.

Retreat pricing includes ground transportation, full program, beautiful ocean view accommodations,
daily meal buffets, daily yoga, teachings, chanting, meditation, fire ceremonies, body work,
swimming and beachcombing.

Additional activities include advanced body work, snorkeling, sailing, surfing, and other beach activities.

[enquirewithin]

I thought he had returned to where he came from?

[Panthers007]

No blinking wonder Alpert's (Ram Dass's?) shrink told him to consider going back to being Richard Alpert.

If he was on my couch - I'd call a moving company and he'd wake up on a floating dock.

Just say: For 40 years the psychedelic movement was killed due to....For 40 years the psychedelic movement was....

I'll fill his VW with ping-pong balls.

[Samadhi]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

No blinking wonder Alpert's (Ram Dass's?) shrink told him to consider going back to being Richard Alpert.

If he was on my couch - I'd call a moving company and he'd wake up on a floating dock.

Just say: For 40 years the psychedelic movement was killed due to....For 40 years the psychedelic movement was....

I'll fill his VW with ping-pong balls.

LOL and velveta cheese. The more i read about this Ram Dass, the more i find him cheesy and played out. This story was interesting, then i read more. damn

[Heretic.Ape.]

he's a bit off kilter but I enjoyed Be Here Now and his lecture on the Gita.

[Mr. Giraffe]

First thought: anyone who calls themselves a Guru, isn't.

[Songcycle67]

Be Here Now is pretty good, but he knows it, so I hate it for spite. And speaking of gay jokes:

LSD soaked undies, anyone?

[enquirewithin]

I have only glanced through Be Here and Now. I'll have to read it properly now and write a revew. From what I read I liked it. A lot of good insights. Ram Dass really did "turn on, tune in and drop out." You won't agree with all his conclusions-- personally I wouldn't really want to become a Hindu guru, but each to his own.

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

I have only glanced through Be Here and Now. I'll have to read it properly now and write a revew. From what I read I liked it. A lot of good insights. Ram Dass really did "turn on, tune in and drop out." You won't agree with all his conclusions-- personally I wouldn't really want to become a Hindu guru, but each to his own.

If you do study him I would be curious what he is doing for less fortunate people in the world. Like starving sick people in Haiti and such...I am curious how his "Guruism" is translated by him in real time to real need. Is he just museing about the universe and giving seminars in Hawaii? Or is he also doing things for the less fortunate in a direct or semi-direct manner? I am curious to know what the "fruits" of his enlightenment are in tangible terms.

I would be curious to know..

[radiometer]

I dig where this thread is going. We have a good group of people here these days.

[podge]

For all interested in Ram Dass and his Guru taking LSD .....

Part 1 is about psychedelic's , part 2 is about meeting his guru in India, part 3 is the story of his guru taking LSD.

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAZp3yymCGk

Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PMb4yngZMY

Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCqXKZINRLU

In relation to the authenticity of the story, a true Guru is someone who is has already mastered the workings of their mind, a psychedelic is not going to disrupt that. But why would Ram Dass bother lieing about such a thing , their is no real gain in it. And Ram Dass is very genuine in his works.

[Songcycle67]

from what I know about the guy, Ram Dass seems to be quite the master of self-deception. seeing his guru eat a massive dose of LSD with no effect would definitely have affirmed that the enlightenment which he was searching for existed and could be learned; both to him and his hordes of hangers-on and "students."

not saying it didn't happen, or couldn't happen, i'm just saying that the source isn't the most reliable. he had his spirituality vested in it.

[Lobsang]

Well mentioning Ram Dass. I kind of liked listening to him when he was Richard Alpert. He as Ram Dass is kind of a weird message. Like he is drawing out the message for something to say.

Now relative to the Guru on the acid. Maybe the guru was tripping a lot before he took the acid and was immune. Nah...I am kidding. I do not think we will ever know what happened with that story.

[Songcycle67]

Originally Posted by Lobsang

Well mentioning Ram Dass. I kind of liked listening to him when he was Richard Alpert. He as Ram Dass is kind of a weird message. Like he is drawing out the message for something to say.

Yes at first he was an extremely objective and scientific mind, but I think his quest to "stay high" (in his words) or stay in that state of constant nowness was his downfall. He wanted to validate the LSD experience as leading to some definitive answer. I think that idea has fucked up a lot of people. The notion that the experience could have a specific point or lead to the attainment of The One Truth which will illuminate everything is ridiculous. You just have to do too much bullshitting to deduce things down to one simple truth (i.e. why are some infants still-born? because they chose to be, dude.)

The only simple one-line truth that leads to enlightenment is scary and hard to face: life is suffering, get used to it.

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by songcycle67

Yes at first he was an extremely objective and scientific mind, but I think his quest to "stay high" (in his words) or stay in that state of constant nowness was his downfall. He wanted to validate the LSD experience as leading to some definitive answer. I think that idea has fucked up a lot of people. The notion that the experience could have a specific point or lead to the attainment of The One Truth which will illuminate everything is ridiculous. You just have to do too much bullshitting to deduce things down to one simple truth (i.e. why are some infants still-born? because they chose to be, dude.)

The only simple one-line truth that leads to enlightenment is scary and hard to face: life is suffering, get used to it.

Well I likes some stuff he said as Alpert about unity of mankind and stuff like that. But then he says stupid things like babies knowing they are goind to be aborted and stuff like that. I listened to a talk by Ram Dass in his later years and it was just a bunch of nonsense. At least Tim Leary did a half decent stand up comedy act in his old age.

[Panthers007]

I speculate that what befell Alpert was Harvard and the Harvard Psychology Department. With these numbskulls it's an all-or-nothing deal. Either you are so utterly into the "science" of psychology that there is no room for any other ideas - or clean out your desk and get out.

On LSD25 and psilocybin, etc - one is bound to run into situations where the fledging science of psychology just falls apart. Like telepathy. How can Harvard Psyche explain events where two people are actually able to know the thoughts of another? Can't. It's not possible in their language. So they have to throw the baby out with the bathwater and dismiss such as "Mass (of two) hysterical hallucinations." No wiggle-room outside the field. Nope. Uh uh.

Psychedelics show people a new way of thinking/perceiving events and ideas. Trapped in a box made by one's teachers at Harvard and having experiences that fly in the face of the box-builders leave one having to either define one's experiences as being called psychotic, or having to blow up the box.

When one has experiences that one cannot define with the information at hand, one naturally will be highly tuned into any plausible road-map that might present itself. Psychology becomes one such possible road-map to define and catagorize psychedelic experiences. So one might go to a "Harvard" looking for the answers. And one might then quickly leave - as Bongo did. And look elsewhere. One might then try Eastern philosophy and religions. I mean - Hell! Those Hindi guys who made those funky statues of deities MUST be tripping! So one might incorporate elements of these into the search for answers.

But if one has been kicked out of a "Harvard" and was so locked into the "All-Or-Nothing" approach that he/she was an instructor of finite box-building...well, throw one all the way out the window - and drag another road-map in and plaster it all over the walls. But one is still trapped in the "All-Or-Nothing" routines. And I'm afraid Dick Alpert hadn't yet learned to take things, including philosophies, in moderation.

Poor Dick. Tut-tut. Om Mane Padme Hum.

[Songcycle67]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

Psychedelics show people a new way of thinking/perceiving events and ideas. Trapped in a box made by one's teachers at Harvard and having experiences that fly in the face of the box-builders leave one having to either define one's experiences as being called psychotic, or having to blow up the box.

When one has experiences that one cannot define with the information at hand, one naturally will be highly tuned into any plausible road-map that might present itself. Psychology becomes one such possible road-map to define and catagorize psychedelic experiences. So one might go to a "Harvard" looking for the answers. And one might then quickly leave - as Bongo did. And look elsewhere. One might then try Eastern philosophy and religions. I mean - Hell! Those Hindi guys who made those funky statues of deities MUST be tripping! So one might incorporate elements of these into the search for answers.

But if one has been kicked out of a "Harvard" and was so locked into the "All-Or-Nothing" approach that he/she was an instructor of finite box-building...well, throw one all the way out the window - and drag another road-map in and plaster it all over the walls. But one is still trapped in the "All-Or-Nothing" routines. And I'm afraid Dick Alpert hadn't yet learned to take things, including philosophies, in moderation.

Poor Dick. Tut-tut. Om Mane Padme Hum.

Fucking well put. I absolutely concurr. And I think that University does this kind of thing to people in general. It's a terrible process of jumping through hoops and dancing around toes and it leads to a sort of indoctrined and habitual insanity where everything has to have an explanation and once it's reached that explanation must be defended no matter the cost.

And I'm speaking mainly from my own personal experience in college in the 2000's; I can't imagine what it was like at Harvard in the late 50's/early 60's.