Culture - Guru Takes Massive Dose of LSD With No Effect

[zera]

Ahhh, its the two things that tend to cause otherwise rational people to throw skepticism, logic and basic science out the window: Eastern religion and psychedelic drugs thrown together.

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by zera

Ahhh, its the two things that tend to cause otherwise rational people to throw skepticism, logic and basic science out the window: Eastern religion and psychedelic drugs thrown together.

LOL! Hence the sixties!

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by dip;ernestrome

I was about to post that according to Paul Krassner, Alpert/Dass had retracted this story. But apparently not, Krassner now retracts his imputed retraction! I'm not entirely clear, this is a story i was always skeptical of.

As I expected. I like the title of the book, One Hand Jerking (making fun of Zen fans). It does say that, "Ram Dass was shocked by the statement... and vehemently denies it."

Originally Posted by dip

swim was wondering, what would guru's sense of humor be like?
if you were to tell him a normal joke, would he laugh?
any thoughts?

What makes you think they are not ordinary people? Many 'gurus' are jokers or rascals.

[kaliwraith]

Interestingly, Swim has had some recent experiences that have reduced tripping on acid, 2c-x, or mushrooms to a body high and visuals. Among other things, two experiences stood out. One, a central part of a warm up for Swim's "drift" phase, involved 5 decently strong hits of LSD, 5 grams of mushrooms, and 700 mg syrian rue 10x extract. Swim had little (3 mushroom trips, 5 acid trips and the two days prior involved a 1.8 g sampling of mushrooms, and a 1.96 g sampling with the addition of 400 mg syrian rue extract) experience with acid and mushrooms at this point but fairly extensive experience with 2c-e.
The other trip was the most intense trip Swim has ever experienced. The combination of DXM and LSD is mind shattering. It's kind of like LSD pushes its energy through the cracks with pressure, but when dxm opens up all the cracks to make 'it' space, 'it' gets comepletely filled with the LSD energy. It was really awesome, but Swim definitely doesn't recommend it. In fact, he actually dislikes telling anyone it's ever a good idea to do drugs ever, despite the considerable enjoyment he experiences on them. Humorously, when he tells people about this particular trip, sometimes they say they would have went completely insane if that happened to them. Swim definitely plans on writing detailed reports on these two trips, but does not have the time as of late. The DXM/LSD one was definitely one of those ++++ ones, though.

ANYWAY, Swim's point from all that background information is that after that last trip, every trip since (100 mg 2c-b+MDMA, other smaller 2c-b doses, two apparently strong acid doses+MDMA, and 3/4 eighth of mushrooms, and ~250 mg MDMA(though it does seem that this chemical is indeed only mildly psychedelic)), Swim has felt that the mind-effects of tripping are no longer there. It is as if he always already thinks that way, and the only difference is being stimulated to think about something for more time than usual. Thus, as mushrooms don't give Swim a desirable body high, visuals aren't enough to justify eating them unless maybe to add texture more to another trip. Anyone else experience this?

Also, it seems very possible to have reached those states of consciousness voluntarily and not be phased by it. It would be interesting for the guru to prove that he's not getting visuals, but in any case, since then, Swim's been able to induce quite significant open eye visuals through concentration along with the body tingles he associates with 2c-b, 2c-e, and MDMA, as well as different songs he really likes. Something that's a bit difficult to categorize is how dissociatives and psychedelics combine. Basically, Swim feel that LSD and mushrooms seem to integrate the senses from the outside and push them on the mind, the mind pushing on the senses (and imagines that other tryptamine-based/similar psychedelics are similar). Phenethylamine trips have a very external element to everything sensory about them, whereas LSD and mushrooms kind of blur sense and imagination and yield visuals one feels are connected to his body. Dissociatives separate the mind and the body, kind of leaving the mind on its own, free to do whatever it wants to do, but in that space the LSD can go wayy far.

Swim will save further details for a lengthier description that will be posted here, on lycaeum, and on erowid (hopefully).

Reputation Comments on this post:

nice contribution to the thread, and good info

[Niteflights]

The famous guru Ram Das told a story about LSD which I have been wondering about. A little background... Harvard psychology professor Richard Alpert took acid and had an awakening, travelled to India and found a Guru named Maharaji, who then renamed Alpert to 'Ram Das'. Since then Ram Das has become quite famous and respected guru.

Ram Das claimed that he gave his guru Maharaji 1000mcg of LSD and that it had no effect on the Maharaji. This was supposed to support the idea the if you meditate and practice yoga enough you develop mystical awareness constantly so LSD no longer changes your consciousness.

This makes no sense to me on several levels. At that dose LSD is a profound dissociative hallucinogen. Guru or no guru the persons mind would exhibit the effects.

Anyone have any insight into the story?

dive safe,
Andrei

[radiometer]

I think it's an interesting story. I also suspect that a fair amount of what is written in Be Here Now is the result of, shall we say, poetic license. Ram Dass has not exactly been known as a beacon of ethics throughout his career.

Studies have shown that profound physical changes can occur in the brain as a result of meditation and other mystical pursuits.

[Panthers007]

If Tibetan monks can stop their hearts and restart them at will, as well as other adepts in advanced meditation techniques, it would follow that LSD could be shut off. Or simply ignored. These people can sit naked in snow banks and have steam rise from their bodies.

A friend of Bongo was visiting the Zoo one day. He had a bio-feedback monitor that attached with velcro around a finger (or something). He'd been playing with this on his radio program (he was a dj) attached to something (gulp!) while asking callers to talk dirty to him. Much to the horror of the program director - but I digress. Anywho, Bongo asked he attach the thing to his finger. It beeped calmly. Said Bongo: "Okay. This is a bliss-state." The device went Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee higher and higher and off the scale. "Now this is looking at Jeffe (another person nearby whom we both couldn't stand)." The device dropped down to a low Bip...Bip...Bip... Bongo took it off his finger and handed it back. The friend just stared. "Nice toy." said Bongo and strolled off.

Go figure.

[Niteflights]

To me it seems that the heart is a muscle and although it is normally involuntary, one can train it to be semi-voluntary. On a certain level we all do it when we have a emotional or adrenalin reaction.

On the other hand LSD saturates receptors and catalyses a rather uncontrollable neurochemical process. Especially 1000 mics for someone who has never tried it... just doesn't quite ring true. Even if an "enlightened" state is already achieved... one would expect the full host of perceptual distortions and hallucinations to accompany.

After doing a bit more reading I did find that the common opinion is that the story was not true, or the guru tricked Ram Das. I think that in general these guru types, for better or for worse, are cult leaders and have to defend their corner on the market.

I like Stanislav Grof's approach... he teaches holotropic breathwork, which is in fact a adapted form of Pranayama (Yogic) breathing. However, during his lectures he alludes to the fact the if LSD is available... breathwork is unnecessary. Sort of says "smoke em if you got em" in so many words.

He's also a bit of a cult leader these days but I can't help but like him.

Andrei

[Salvinorum]

If you're not one of the rare human specimens that is immune to LSD's effects, and if you're not at the time dosed with an inhibitor, plant based or pharmaceutical, you cannot either stop or ignore the experience. However, the person who after ingesting 900mg did not seem psychedelic, did not need the ability to stop LSD, or to be immune to it. A person with strong mental state, a long history of mental exercise, and not to mention a long history of poweful chemical stimulation of his brain, whether self induced or from external sources, would be able to stay underwhelmed and in control under the influence of LSD.

What I do not understand is why this guru felt the need to deny LSD to himself, seemingly without even giving it a chance. Perhaps it was because the source told him of the chemical nature of the substance which, without further explanation, may turn such a guru off to the spiritual nature of the drug, with his ego not allowing him to accept a western chemicals potentials or superior aspects when compared to gurus alternatives. Furthermore, I have never experienced any effects from LSD within 90 minutes of dosing, and that is without swallowing, which only slows it down. This is what I believe happened, the westerner just didn't stick around long enough to see the guru blown away by a tsunami such as he has never even dreamt about.

To top it off, this guru and his opinion do not deserve my respect in regards to LSD, all owing to just that one last sentence regarding god. What kind of indoctrinated guru is this anyway?

[pinkandfluffy]

Swim wasa watching a documentary where a man was telling a very similar story except involving a buddhist monk. Again, it had no effect.

[enquirewithin]

Never trust a guru!

[quomem]

personall, i just wanna know why they wasted 305mikes of purfectly good acid on someone who didn't want to appreciate it?

[fugazi32]

I've heard of two Zen Buddhists who were given LSD in an experiment, but they became so mentally uncomfortable they had to have their trip terminated...

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by fugazi32

I've heard of two Zen Buddhists who were given LSD in an experiment, but they became so mentally uncomfortable they had to have their trip terminated...

That sounds like a fascinating study with obvious contradictions towards the supposed mystical resistance or impermeability of the guru mind. Did you garner this from anecdotal hearsay or could you perhaps provide a source?

[radiometer]

Originally Posted by fugazi32

I've heard of two Zen Buddhists who were given LSD in an experiment, but they became so mentally uncomfortable they had to have their trip terminated...

According to Myron Stolaroff's experience as outlined in Thanatos to Eros, Zen Buddhism in the US is very unfriendly to psychedelics. Which is a damned shame. It wouldn't surprise me if these people did themselves in by entering the experience in a poor mindset.

[psyche]

SWIM still likes to believe this to be true. After all, if one lives on a current moment, never looking outside it, and letting all decisions to just happen without hesitation, then it wouldn't matter if the experience was drawn 1000-fold stronger. Only if you pay attention to or let the volume of the experience affect what you think of it, rather than just live it out like any other, then it's going to matter to your behaviour. Trying to fake that it wouldn't matter, i.e trying to resist the trip, is the most common reason for bad trips. I could believe this, considering that many of these monks have dedicated their life for ascetic living, if they had much desire to change the present moment they couldn't stand the lifestyle.

[psyche]

According to Myron Stolaroff's experience as outlined in Thanatos to Eros, Zen Buddhism in the US is very unfriendly to psychedelics. Which is a damned shame. It wouldn't surprise me if these people did themselves in by entering the experience in a poor mindset.

Sounds reasonable. The kind of take everything as it is -attitude that is in the heart of the nature of zen-buddhism should be more than ideal for psychedelic trips.

[Shampoo]

I bumped into a relevant reference in some reading today, and thought it might be appropriately shared here. Stanislav Grof reports an even higher dose being given to a patient without noticeable manifestation, a whopping 15000 micrograms IM, (not a mistake, 15mg of intramuscular LSD-25) did not result in an LSD experience according to observations by Grof in his early years of experimentation with LSD psychotherapy. Grof believes that psychological resistance to the psychedelic experience is a major factor and notes that "high psychological resistance to LSD cannot be overcome just by an increase in dosage."

[ThirdEyeFloond]

Originally Posted by Shampoo

I bumped into a relevant reference in some reading today, and thought it might be appropriately shared here. Stanislav Grof reports an even higher dose being given to a patient without noticeable manifestation, a whopping 15000 micrograms IM, (not a mistake, 15mg of intramuscular LSD-25) did not result in an LSD experience according to observations by Grof in his early years of experimentation with LSD psychotherapy. Grof believes that psychological resistance to the psychedelic experience is a major factor and notes that "high psychological resistance to LSD cannot be overcome just by an increase in dosage."

Actually it is a mistake, in the case story described in 'Realms of the Human Unconscious' which I assume you are referring to, the patient Erwin was given 1500 µg / 1,5mg IM, still one hell of a dose though.

Speaking of high-dose LSD trips, has anyone seen the movie 'Harvard Man'?
It's supposedly based on a 15000µg trip the director James Toback had while being a student at Harvard. Not a great movie though and the special effects used throughout most of the movie in an effort to visually capture the mental state of the lead character gets annoying real quick.

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by ThirdEyeFloond

Actually it is a mistake, in the case story described in 'Realms of the Human Unconscious' which I assume you are referring to, the patient Erwin was given 1500 µg / 1,5mg IM, still one hell of a dose though.

I have seen reference to that case study, but in this instance, I was referencing Grof's 'LSD Psychotherapy', in the second chapter, 'Pharmacological Effects of LSD', revised in 01', & 08'. He makes no specific mention of the patient, which leads me to believe it was not Erwin with his 'spectacular resistance', though it could be a misprint I suppose...

[ThirdEyeFloond]

Originally Posted by Shampoo

I have seen reference to that case study, but in this instance, I was referencing Grof's 'LSD Psychotherapy', in the second chapter, 'Pharmacological Effects of LSD', revised in 01', & 08'. He makes no specific mention of the patient, which leads me to believe it was not Erwin with his 'spectacular resistance', though it could be a misprint I suppose...

In the danish translation I have of 'LSD Psychotherapy' the only dose mentioned in that chapter besides Maharaji's two doses of 900 and 1200µg is 1500µg IM so I assume it's the same case he is speaking of so ya I guess it's a misprint.

[Panthers007]

Zen means Nothingness. Zen meditation is to detach oneself from ALL thought and feelings. It has absolutely 'nothing' to do with "Gurus" with turbans and rubies and mantras awarded to their pets. The focus on just one's breath while canceling out all attachment to mind/thought would be antithetical to the wide-open feed a psychedelic elicits.

Different strokes.

[Samadhi]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

Zen means Nothingness. Zen meditation is to detach oneself from ALL thought and feelings. It has absolutely 'nothing' to do with "Gurus" with turbans and rubies and mantras awarded to their pets. The focus on just one's breath while canceling out all attachment to mind/thought would be antithetical to the wide-open feed a psychedelic elicits.

Different strokes.

He's got it right. zen is not an easy practice and is nowhere near a "guru" seeing as they are two different philosophies and insights that are separated by a little stretch of huge ass mountains. (not just the metaphoric ones... like the Himalayans)

A guru being able to control ones mind in full even while under is an incredible feat and is very very interesting to hear about. swim would love to see detailed studies on this with all the bells and whistles science has got to offer.

very cool stuff indeed

[enquirewithin]

Well, the chillum babas, Hindu 'holymen,' are certainly not immune to effects of drugs!

Rajneesh, or Osho, was also certainly not immune to LSD. He even proposed that there should be an "LSD 2"-- maybe he should have met Shulgin?

[birdinahouse]

don't take my word for it but in the Alpert book The Only Dance There Is, and again don't take my word for it, he talks about how he dosed him again and the guru came out of the trip saying something along the lines of,

this substance gives christ consciousness, it is not the best way but it is usefull to people that cannot get there otherwise or would never know the experience

but someone should find the book if interested, my memory is vague