Culture - Guru Takes Massive Dose of LSD With No Effect

[23smooches]

This is an interesting article I found accidentally while searching Google for something else entirely. I thought it was worthy to share on the DF. enjoy


GURU takes massive dose of LSD with no effects ....

"In 1967 when I first came to India, I brought with me a supply of LSD, hoping to find someone who might understand more about these substances than we did in the West. When I had met Maharajji(Neem Karoli Baba), after some days the thought had crossed my mind that he would be a perfect person to ask.

The next day after having that thought, I was called to him and he asked me immediately, "Do you have a question?"
Of course, being before him was such a powerful experience that I had completely forgotten the question I had had in my mind the night before. So I looked stupid and said, "No, Maharajji, I have no question."
He appeared irritated and said, "Where is the medicine?"
I was confused but Bhagavan Dass suggested,
"Maybe he means the LSD." I asked and Maharajji nodded. The bottle of LSD was in the car and I was sent to fetch it.

When I returned I emptied the vial of pills into my hand.
In addition to the LSD there were a number of other pills for this and that--diarrhea, fever, a sleeping pill, and so forth. He asked about each of these. He asked if they gave powers. I didn't understand at the time and thought that by "powers" perhaps he meant physical strength. I said, "No." Later, of course, I came to understand that the word he had used, "siddhis," means psychic powers.
Then he held out his hand for the LSD. I put one pill on his palm.
Each of these pills was about three hundred micrograms of very pure LSD-
-a solid dose for an adult. He beckoned for more, so I put a second pill in his hand--six hundred micrograms. Again he beckoned and I added yet another, making the total dosage 900 micrograms--certainly not a dose for beginners. Then he threw all the pills into his mouth. My reaction was one of shock mixed with fascination of a social scientist eager to see what would happen. He allowed me to stay for an hour--

and nothing happened.

Nothing whatsover.
He just laughed at me.

The whole thing had happened very fast and unexpectedly. When I returned to the United States in 1968 I told many people about this acid feat. But there had remained in me a gnawing doubt that perhaps he had been putting me on and had thrown the pills over his shoulder or palmed them, because I hadn't actually seen them go into his mouth and had thrown the pills over his shoulder or palmed them, because I hadn't actually seen them go into his mouth.

Three years later, when I was back in India,
he asked me one day, "Did you give me medicine when you were in India last time?"
"Yes."
"Did I take it?" he asked. ( Ah, there was my doubt made manifest!)
"I think you did."
"What happened?
"Nothing."
"Oh! Jao!" and he sent me off for the evening.

The next morning I was called over to the porch in front of his room, where he sat in the mornings on a tucket. He asked, "Have you got any more of that medicine?"
It just so happened that I was carrying a small supply of LSD for "just in case," and this was obviously it. "Yes." - "Get it," he said. So I did. In the bottle were five pills of three hundred micrograms each. One of the pills was broken. I placed them on my palm and held them out to him. He took the four unbroken pills. Then, one by one, very obviously and very deliberately, he placed each one in his mouth and swallowed it-- another unspoken thought of mine now answered.
As soon as he had swallowed the last one, he asked, "Can I take water?"
"Yes."
"Hot or cold?"
"It doesn't matter."
He started yelling for water and drank a cup when it was brought.
The he asked," How long will it take to act?"
"Anywhere from twenty minutes to an hour."
He called for an older man, a long -time devotee who had a watch,
and Maharajji held the man's wrist, often pulling it up to him to peer at the watch.
Then he asked,"Will it make me crazy?"
That seemed so bizzare to me that I could only go along with what seemed to be a gag.
So I said, "Probably." And then we waited.

After some time he pulled the blanket over his face, and when he came out after a moment his eyes were rolling and his mouth was ajar and he looked totally mad. I got upset. What was happening?
Had I misjudged his powers? After all, he was an old man (though how old I had no idea), and I had let him take twelve hundred micrograms. Maybe last time he had thrown them away and then he read my mind and was trying to prove to me he could do it, not realizing how strong the "medicine" really was.
Guilt and anxiety poured through me. But when I looked at him again he was perfectly normal and looking at the watch. At the end of an hour it was obvious nothing had happened. His reactions had been a total put-on. And then he asked,
"Have you got anything stronger?" I didn't. Then he said, "These medicines were used in Kulu Valley long ago. But yogis have lost that knowledge. They were used with fasting. Nobody knows now. To take them with no effect, your mind must be firmly fixed on God. Others would would be afraid to take. Many saints would not take this." And he left it at that.
*******
When I asked him if I should take LSD again, he said,
"It should not be taken in a hot climate. If you are in a place that is cool and peaceful, and you are alone and your mind is turned toward God, then you may take the yogi medicine."
****
More on Neem Karoli Baba http://www.neemkarolibaba.com

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Amusing story
	True or not, doesn't matter. It's still a cool topic
	Great article
	very cool read-- I wonder if its true? thx for sharing!
	Interesting read, thanks

[enquirewithin]

Curious story but quite likely apocryphal.

[Panthers007]

This was written by Richard Alpert - aka Ram Dass - in his book "Be Here Now - Now Be Here" around 1967. The LSD was 305mcg White Lightning allegedly made by Owsley.

It's a famous story. And an interesting book for it's time if one gets a chance to find an original copy. Printed in a most strange (1960's acid-head) style. I have a copy on my shelf.

Interesting to see it pop it's head up again!

[Lunar Loops]

The yak has a question.

He does not doubt the authenticty of the story and also believes that what is portrayed is possible. However, LSD can take longer than 1 hour to take effect. If you were truly carrying out this experiment, surely you would stay with the subject for a few hours?

Maybe he did this, but from the quotes above, it appears like he waits an hour, sees nothing has happened and then leaves (or is not permitted to stay any longer).

[ima-do-proprio-ser]

myth.

[Pondlife]

Is it possible that the Guru was affected but was able to control his reactions so as to appear normal? This seems more likely than being immune, although I agree with earlier posters that the most likely explanation is that it's a myth.

[23smooches]

I believe LSD is to be taken only for the purpose of therapy and opening your third eye, getting closer to god...... This story may be true, it may not be, but I wouldnt call it a lie. I believe its entirely possible.

[Bajeda]

Perhaps with focus and meditation the guru can attain a similar state anyways, so if he were to do so while on the influence of lsd it wouldn't really make a difference as he would block everything out with his mind anyways (or let everything in....)

Interesting read at least.

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

This was written by Richard Alpert - aka Ram Dass - in his book "Be Here Now - Now Be Here" around 1967. The LSD was 305mcg White Lightning allegedly made by Owsley.

It's a famous story. And an interesting book for it's time if one gets a chance to find an original copy. Printed in a most strange (1960's acid-head) style. I have a copy on my shelf.

Interesting to see it pop it's head up again!

Ahhh... that book. I have a copy but have never read it. I can't help thinking of cruel a play on the name Ram Dass when I hear his name....

You can't really become a Hindu (not sure why you would want to either) but you can change your name.

[Jacco]

Originally Posted by 23smooches

I believe LSD is to be taken only for the purpose of therapy and opening your third eye, getting closer to god...... This story may be true, it may not be, but I wouldnt call it a lie. I believe its entirely possible.

From a pharmological point of view, that he was faking sanity is the best hypothesis. No matter how spirituality works, 305ug of LSD is enough to get his 5HT receptors going..

Also, is there the possibility that he tried something else before and built up a tolerance? Perhaps it was not the first medicine he's had.

[23smooches]

Originally Posted by Jacco

From a pharmological point of view, that he was faking sanity is the best hypothesis. No matter how spirituality works, 305ug of LSD is enough to get his 5HT receptors going..

Also, is there the possibility that he tried something else before and built up a tolerance? Perhaps it was not the first medicine he's had.

It has been found that Yogis, and Brahmahs(hindu priests) have higher concetrations of DMT in their brain and urine, due to meditation and concentrating on the third eye. Meditation can take you some strange places, and this man is already on another level of thought, so he probably has no effects when taking psychedelic 'mind expanders'...... hes already expanded enough.

[JDreaming]

Originally Posted by 23smooches

It has been found that Yogis, and Brahmahs(hindu priests) have higher concetrations of DMT in their brain and urine, due to meditation and concentrating on the third eye.

It's been theorized... as far as I know nobody has ever tested priest urine/neurotransmitter fluids vs. unenlightened slob urine/neurotransmitter fluids to prove it. It's difficult to define for purposes of clinical testing who a true priest/religious person is, too.

[Lunar Loops]

Also if you were truly going to conduct this as an experiment, you would conduct experiments with the test subject. You would test motor skills, language and comprehension tests, look at physical indicators (brain activity, heart rate, pupil dilation, etc), etc.

The power of the mind is an incredible thing and the yak tells me that on previous voyages he has had to take a fellow traveller to one side and re-assure them that all is well with the world. So much so that he has in the past been referred to as nanny-yak (and he doesn't even wear female clothing; well not often). He tells me that it's amazing how quickly you can become/appear 'straight' when you have to focus the mind on something else.

However, in this case there is no conclusive proof one way or the other (again unless there is more in the book).

[enquirewithin]

Here is the story, for anyone interested.

[raven3davis]

These guru characters are not to be taken lightly. I wouldn't discredit the story myself. 1200ug of lsd should kick in within 20 minutes. It would be nothing short of amazing for someone to be able to fake sanity on that kind of dose after an hour.

[Lunar Loops]

Originally Posted by raven3davis

These guru characters are not to be taken lightly. I wouldn't discredit the story myself. 1200ug of lsd should kick in within 20 minutes. It would be nothing short of amazing for someone to be able to fake sanity on that kind of dose after an hour.

Agreed, but that story hardly provides conclusive proof one way or the other. It is also a fact that some people can control the experience better than others and this may be down to way of life/mental training, but SWIS also believes that some people are more pre-disposed to 'losing it' than others (yes SWIS knows 1200 is a massive dose). Not convinced about the 20 minutes though as the time to 'come up' can depend on any number of factors (not least, what has been consumed prior to dosing).

Reputation Comments on this post:

your archive and forum additions are wonderful (as usual)

[Jatelka]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

Here is the story, for anyone interested.

That's not working for me, enquire

EDIT: It's OK now!

[Pondlife]

The link works fine for me (Firefox 2.0 on Windows XP).

[Benga]

this story fits perfectly in the tradition of Hindu spiritual leaders having to constantly prove the authenticity of their spiritual powers through feats of control of the mind over the body, through ascetism, self mutilation, you name it it's probably been done...
swim has personally met saddhu renunciants who claimed that their faith / mental powers allowed them to correctly use psychoactives such as bhang "without going mad".
however they did not claim that it does not affect them, but that they can use the resulting inebriation correctly for spiritual purposes ( to this day bhang is legal in most Indian cities that have a strong religious identity, like Varanasi, Pushkar etc as a sacrament unto Shiva). That said, from swim's experiments with cannabis based bhang at the time, and he was then a regular cannabis smoker, there might be an amount of truth in this.

but there is also a lot of bs going around. In this story what is bothering is that the doses given are truly fantastic, and that the guru really wants to prove his superiority over the "medecine".
I seriously doubt that such high doses could be "controlled" no matter how mentally powerfull one might be. lower doses, sure, but 1200...well you never know... it seems like the guru was really eager to prove his mental power, and also maybe the superiority of Mother India's culture and history over other places, as this is so often the case ( that's how I read the conclusive "LSD ? yes we had something similar a few thousand years ago, but lost it - yet I still have the knowledge / secret").

I have no doubt that a lifelong practice in mental practices meditation and possibily experience with psychoactives could help one control mental states / appear normal under the influence of LSD. we have proof, read scientific proof of effects of mental training regimens on the body's reaction, yes people can slowdown their heartbeats through breathing techniques and meditation, or achieve a faster read / reaction time than most through martial arts training ( giving the impression of reading the opponent's mind).
it is not so much the strong faith, as some priests and dedicated members of religious groups have had very bad ("hellish") L.S.D experiences, as the regular mental training apparently.

but 1200 ug ? that's an experiment that would be worth monitoring in a lab. Worse things have been done to gurus before anyway.

b

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Level-headed assessment and strong post.
	way to balance out the topic

[enquirewithin]

The point is that there is no real evidence apart form one person's statement.

I've met a lot of fake holy men in India. I'm sure this is not all of them, but many of then are after ca$h. I remember one time on a beach in Southern India I saw a wooden tower with a 'sadhu' on top. Underneath was a sign saying that he was staying up there for several years as some kind of spiritual atonement. I should not have stopped. As I walked off, not leaving a donation, he came down and pursued me across the beach demanding money.

As for 'chillum babas'? They get stoned all day, hopefully at your expense!

[23smooches]

yeah, Im studying the history of far eastern art, and weve been going over india and its holy sculptures... Prof. brought up a whole discussion on how there are holy men who only do it for the money and sex, holy men do get sex because many women hope thier holiness will rub off somehow..... I imagine they just sit around and get stoned and have sex all day. This isnt all of them of course. There are many genuine priests, and many fake ones.

[Benga]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

The point is that there is no real evidence apart form one person's statement.

I've met a lot of fake holy men in India. I'm sure this is not all of them, but many of then are after ca$h. I remember one time on a beach in Southern India I saw a wooden tower with a 'sadhu' on top. Underneath was a sign saying that he was staying up there for several years as some kind of spiritual atonement. I should not have stopped. As I walked off, not leaving a donation, he came down and pursued me across the beach demanding for money.

As for 'chillum babas'? They get stoned all day, hopefully at your expense!

that is very true. Love the tower anectode !
not to mentions the babas actually running the hash commerce, in "freaky" places like Manali or elsewhere...

b

[ernestrome]

I was about to post that according to Paul Krassner, Alpert/Dass had retracted this story. But apparently not, Krassner now retracts his imputed retraction! I'm not entirely clear, this is a story i was always skeptical of.

[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Other/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]see page 82-3 here

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ljs...8mu0w#PPA82,M1

[dip]

swim was wondering, what would guru's sense of humor be like?
if you were to tell him a normal joke, would he laugh?
any thoughts?

[ernestrome]

Stories about some guru's often portray them as highly irreverent. I'm thinking mostly of the Zen one's really.

A monk who, having failed to achieve “enlightenment”
through the normal Zen methods, was told by his teacher
to think of nothing but an ox. Day after day after day,
the monk thought of the ox, visualized the ox, meditated on the ox.
Finally, one day, the teacher came to the monk’s cell and said

“Come out here - I want to talk to you”.
“I can’t get out” the monk said. “My horns won’t fit through the door”.

I can’t get out…

At these words, the monk was “enlightened”.

There's plenty more Zen stories like that.

Some Guru's are portrayed as much more ascetic, but i'd take an irreverent one any day.