Mystical Experiences?

[seeingred]

Why is it that drugs seem to be the only way to experience anything mystical? It seems like the only way to become truly mystical is to do some type of drug. what does this say about our world? Are we meant to mutate?
Are our brains meant to be in solid form, pure, or are they meant to be twisted and changed by mind-altering chemicals? It seems to me that the most mystical experiences I've ever had were under the influence of something or another. How can one be spiritual without drugs? Fasting? Sweating? Yoga? It all seems so overrated. What's the easy way out.

[The Doors]

You may be interested in what is known as Self-Realization, also known was Gnosis which means knowledge of the self(InnerBeing/Higher Self) which essentialy comes from the experience that you create for yourself as the Creator.

Here are a few links to give you an overview of what it is, if you are interested you may pursue further investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-realization
http://www.self-realization.com/
http://www.gnosticteachings.org

There is no easy way out by the way, progress comes with work, routine and discipline. Drugs are a good temporary tool, but in the end one must do the innerwork that is required. I can't fully elaborate on all this as I do not have a profound and deep understanding of it, but I've been rather intriguided by it in the past few months and do plan on looking deeper into it.

[LateBloomer]

Originally Posted by The Doors

You may be interested in what is known as Self-Realization, also known was Gnosis which means knowledge of the self(InnerBeing/Higher Self) which essentialy comes from the experience that you create for yourself as the Creator.

Here are a few links to give you an overview of what it is, if you are interested you may pursue further investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-realization
http://www.self-realization.com/
http://www.gnosticteachings.org

There is no easy way out by the way, progress comes with work, routine and discipline. Drugs are a good temporary tool, but in the end one must do the innerwork that is required. I can't fully elaborate on all this as I do not have a profound and deep understanding of it, but I've been rather intriguided by it in the past few months and do plan on looking deeper into it.

I had my first true esoteric experience in the astral and it was fantastic. I won't go into it in full detail but if you do with work, as I hope I don't waver with it myself, then it can happen.

Gnosis is so pure but attaining that purity is very hard in the world taht we live in and the degeneracy of our own minds. It truly is something that everyone should look in to, especially those interested in states of consciousness because gnosis is basically the study of consciousness.

I hope your work takes you where you want to go.

Originally Posted by Nature Boy

Acceptance of "mystical" experiences would seem to suggest that there is some sort of mystery at hand or some kind of otherworldy influence. SWIM does not have any superstitious or religious beliefs and understands that psychedelics work in a fixed manner just like every other psychoactive.

Yes, if you look for "mystical" experiences, you probably will find something that you can derive as one. Same way a Christian will claim a miracle when something positive happens despite unlikely odds.

Obviously it's a completely needless practice, people believing their own nonsense. I don't mind people having their beliefs but honestly I'm not interested in hearing about them because largely, these beliefs are pure bullshit with no realistic basis whatsoever.

You are a creature of intellect and the five senses but there is one thing that goes beyond that. I was like you but found that consciousness answers all the questions that I struggled with when I only used my intellect. I am still very skeptical of my spiritual pathway but constantly am amazed by the neglect and ignorance of our own consciousness and minds. You have to remember, we only really use 3 percent of our mind, the rest is ego and gets us nowhere but pain.

YOu can give all these things a scientific background, i'm cool with that, but maybe drugs tap into the dimensions that only a truly developed consciousness sees but our pathetic consciousness and especially our lower minds in its 3 dimensions of space and 1 of time cannot see.

[~lostgurl~]

Originally Posted by LateBloomer

You have to remember, we only really use 3 percent of our mind, the rest is ego and gets us nowhere but pain.

Isn't that just a myth, about us only using a certain percentage of our minds/brains? I was aways told it was 10% but I have seen a range of percentages mentioned at different times. How the hell do they work out such a percentage anyway?

[LateBloomer]

Originally Posted by ~lostgurl~

Isn't that just a myth, about us only using a certain percentage of our minds/brains? I was aways told it was 10% but I have seen a range of percentages mentioned at different times. How the hell do they work out such a percentage anyway?

Only 10% of the brain is used in brain functioning.
3% of the mind is conscious. The rest is ego.

My mistake.

[~lostgurl~]

Originally Posted by LateBloomer

Only 10% of the brain is used in brain functioning.
3% of the mind is conscious. The rest is ego.

My mistake.

I'm still positive the whole things is a myth. Have you got any links to back this up?

[Nature Boy]

Many would be of the opinion that there is no way of having a mystical experience seeing as many don't believe in mystical entities in the first place.

[The Doors]

Originally Posted by Nature Boy

Many would be of the opinion that there is no way of having a mystical experience seeing as many don't believe in mystical entities in the first place.

Even some that don't believe in "mystical" experiences, experience it in their every day lives without even realizing it. Once you "believe" or at least have an open mind to it, that is when you are able to observe and be aware of what is around you (to a certain extent). How can one be aware or conscious of it if his mind is not even open to the idea or concept?

[FuBai]

Most commonly accepted mystical experiences are supposed to have occurred without drugs. Teresa of Avila's famous mystical experience happened without recorded psychedelic inducement. As for whether it would say anything about us...I am not sure what you mean. They are experiences caused by psychological conditions or chemical imbalances, we know this because, through the simple addition of chemicals to our blood stream we can induce mystical experiences. All that they say is that we are susceptible to irrationality and delusion, nothing more. Your line of argument seems to entail that mystical experiences are 'meant' to occur, when in fact they are little more than the result of evolutionary hang ups. There is undoubtedly some reason as to why this self-deluding mechanism was useful in the past, or it may be the by product of another useful characteristic, but to suppose purpose or meaning behind them seems a little irrational.

[El Calico Loco]

Originally Posted by FuBai

Most commonly accepted mystical experiences are supposed to have occurred without drugs. Teresa of Avila's famous mystical experience happened without recorded psychedelic inducement. As for whether it would say anything about us...I am not sure what you mean. They are experiences caused by psychological conditions or chemical imbalances, we know this because, through the simple addition of chemicals to our blood stream we can induce mystical experiences. All that they say is that we are susceptible to irrationality and delusion, nothing more.

Not necessarily. There are sub rosa premises in scientific skepticism that many self-described skeptics aren't even aware of. The atheist/materialist world view presumes a great deal about ontology, epistemology, and metaphysics from the start. Contrast this with philosophical skepticism, which assumes nothing from the beginning. "Nothing can be known, not even this."

There's really no rational basis for choosing materialism rather than dualism or idealism. We can't step outside the universe to check, so the choice has more to do with psychology than logic or evidence.

We know that chemicals, meditation, seizures, and such can cause experiences far removed from ordinary life. Science is based on empirical evidence; what does one do when one's senses give different evidence? Skeptics think it's meaningless; to the Platonic skeptic, this just means the event is mucking with the brain. But why should one set of sensory inputs be valued more highly than another? Because they are the most common? Science isn't based on what is popular; it's possible for one person to be right and everyone else wrong. Why wouldn't this be true of metaphysics?

A mystic would probably take the experience at face value. He might say that the event is taking off the blinders and giving the experiencer a rare glimpse at reality. Neither viewpoint is falsifiable.

That said, I do think that we ought to stick with the Consensus Reality we can all agree on when it comes to solving conflicts among human beings. Mystical experiences aren't valid for anyone but the one who experiences them. I think many of the problems in this world come from people confusing the objective and subjective or thinking that one supercedes the other.


ECL

[Panthers007]

The word "mystical" is a misnomer with many ramifications. May I suggest a book?

Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind

by Richard Maurice Bucke

Pretty cheap if you hunt around. It belongs on every seeker's bookshelf.

[augentier]

The most spiritual and moving experiences my cat has had have been without drugs, and during a time when she didn't do drugs at all. I believe one can alter his/her own mind with meditation and mind-over-matter without the use of drugs.

[Jatelka]

I was always rather intrigued by the idea that mysical experiences (for example, as experienced by Joan of Arc, among others) could be explained by the symptoms of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy

[Nature Boy]

Acceptance of "mystical" experiences would seem to suggest that there is some sort of mystery at hand or some kind of otherworldy influence. SWIM does not have any superstitious or religious beliefs and understands that psychedelics work in a fixed manner just like every other psychoactive.

Yes, if you look for "mystical" experiences, you probably will find something that you can derive as one. Same way a Christian will claim a miracle when something positive happens despite unlikely odds.

Obviously it's a completely needless practice, people believing their own nonsense. I don't mind people having their beliefs but honestly I'm not interested in hearing about them because largely, these beliefs are pure bullshit with no realistic basis whatsoever.

[sweetsweetmary]

Alexander Shulgin defines a mystical experience as a ++++. These can happen with drugs or without. This is an excerpt from an interview with him. I strongly agree with his insight here...

Have you ever reached or come close to a plus 4 (++++) (by means of a drug, of course), if so, was it truly bliss and what produced it?
S: The +4 state is not simply a more intense place - it is a unique mental state that is a phenomenon unto itself. As Ann and I noted in PIHKAL, it is a rare and precious transcendental state which has been called a "peak experience," a "divine transformation" or a "state of Samadhi." It has been known to come from a drug experience, and it has been known to occur to a person spontaneously with no drug having been involved. I have had two drug-related reactions that I have called "bliss" or "timeless" or "omnipotent" states where I can move things without touching them and make cloud patterns assume shapes of my own choosing. But as extraordinary as they are, they are also exhausting and an eventual return to a normal "stoned" condition is truly appreciated.

[Panthers007]

It can happen by stubbing your toe. By living in a fascist nation. By falling in love. The list is endless.

Temporal Lobe Epilepsy is an interesting theory. But it must have been a bad case for William Shakespeare!* Seems his form lasted a great many years and still let him write. But we are, of course, working to define mystical.

Perhaps we need to interpret what mystical actually means. I think this could be a very long discussion. I look forward to it.

* Amongst many others, I'm sure.

[Mona Lisa]

I almost always experience a subtle alteration in conciousness when I travel to new places. It's all the strange new sights, sounds and smells, plus the fact that I'm not on automatic pilot. Meeting new people and learning about a new culture can be overwhelming for me. Even exotic food and music can do it for me, as well as meeting new people even at home. I've also had intense experiences when doing long runs or bike rides. It must be all the endorphans... I also really enjoy good films, which can have this effect on me if I get engrossed.

[FuBai]

I think that, in a slightly more abstract way, even atheists can have mystical experiences that they derive from observing ordinary objects. Certainly I have felt "transcendent" feelings while looking at a particular example of natural beauty, or even just suddenly seeing situations in a beautiful and fascinating way. I think that they are valid mystical experiences, equal to visions etcetera, but it is the interpretation that we derive from them that is different.

[Nature Boy]

Yes LostGurl, it is a myth. Unless of course LateBloomer can find something that backs it up but I highly doubt it. We use our entire brains everyday. Perhaps we could use our ability to memorize information better but that's about memory capacity not general brain function.

The point Nago brings up about TLE is interesting however and is a far more realistic explanation. Clifford Pickover wrote The Vision of the Chariot: Transcendent Experience and Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (1999) in which he goes into detailed analysis of this. I found an interesting link about the Psychology of Mysticism in general at: http://primal-page.com/mysindex.htm

Worth a look.

[Panthers007]

From experiences I've been witness to, those who trip, walk, fly, or fall into what I prefer to call Cosmic Consciousness have little to no knowledge of the triggering mechanism. It just happened. It tends to be pointed out by friends - "Holy shit, bro! You're a fucking prophet!"

Then the exploration begins. And the wonder of what to do with this multi-faceted Gestalt outlook at the world. And the dangers of ending up with followers who are "hot on the heel" of the same to happen to them. Out come the charlatans, the fakes, the phoney-gurus - name it. All trying to make themselves a name through the poor sap who may have bumped his/her head and found Samadhi.

Many of you know people who found themselves in this situation. And they keep their mouth shut tight - and do what they can behind the scenes. And that's not just a story. That's a little advice - in case you bump your noggin somewhere down the road.

Next:

[dr ACE]

Originally Posted by seeingred

Why is it that drugs seem to be the only way to experience anything mystical? It seems like the only way to become truly mystical is to do some type of drug. what does this say about our world? Are we meant to mutate?
Are our brains meant to be in solid form, pure, or are they meant to be twisted and changed by mind-altering chemicals? It seems to me that the most mystical experiences I've ever had were under the influence of something or another. How can one be spiritual without drugs? a? Yoga? It all seems so overrated. What's the easy way out.

henry has had #'mystical' experiences on. Drugs like MdmA,5ho-dmt,t-7and others. But
it also noticed these kind of deep emotional experiences when not ingesting any kind of mind altering/mood altering substances.

there can be times when just being around other people who are very 'spiritual' and insightful
when henry or his friends feel a kind of connected feeling and there is a mutual spiritual thing going on. Drugs definitely do not have to be used to induce a 'spiritual' mind frame.

mediation,and focussing your energy's has a deep emotional effect. Maybe drugs help to reach this state of tranquillity faster but the overall experience is more appreciated if you manage it without mind altering substances,unless of course they are completely natural

that would be henrys 45pence on t he matter

it is really late @ night where henry is the now so forvive an spelling or grammer funk ups;;

[sweetsweetmary]

Here is SWIM's one and only mystical experience:

Acid: Woh this one is a little deep. IMagine this, the best funnest acid ever. SWIM have had different kinds of acid, and this was SWIM’s favorite by far. Just clean, great, no reason to come down type of shit. SWIM was listening to GEorge Acosta's Touched album right when it came out, and man SWIM was tripping. SWIM and girl also had Oakenfold's Creamfields album. That trip meant so much to SWIM as SWIM feel it was the first real experience with SWIM and girlfriend entering a reality, that has always existed, from past lives, that first glimmered it's glory to SWIM. SWIM took three hits, SWIM girl took two. These were fresh hits, SWIM knew the guy that was making them, a 60 yr old hippie guy, that has since disappeared. They were on tie dye paper (pretty cool). Well anyway right when the peak came the sun was getting ready to set, glimpsing through the window and a perfect moment, and SWIM and girl were smoking cigs and the smoke just stopped (Complete Time bending), Deep Breath, perfection, SWIM was there, then vrooom back to reality, wow something like that can never happen again, vrooom Peak again, it was the sun's energy doing it, it wants to show SWIM somehting, bang all of a sudden, SWIM closed SWIM’s eyes, touched heads with SWIM’s girlfriend and went up in SWIM’s mind, SWIM was on a cliff, SWIM’s girlfriend was below SWIM on a lower cliff, just like the dreams SWIM have had as a child. She looked timid, SWIM was SWIM but not because SWIM could see SWIM. By the way she was like a little deer, not her, this was a past life. SWIM was a giant, an angry mean thing. Then SWIM saw the face change, and so did hers. SWIM knew what SWIM had to do, in that other level (SWIM would call this telepathy on SWIM’s end as SWIM sensed what she was thinking) SWIM told her to relax, and she began to relax. Then bang SWIM opened SWIM’s EYES. Wow SWIM said was she really there. So SWIM asked, SWIM cried. She said she was not there, but perhaps because she was only on two. There it is guys, enjoy!

Ok SWIM said after this trip, true love developed. SWIM beleives, SWIM found his soul mate this very millisecond, and time stopped to show

[Twiglet]

It does smell a bit rectal, but do they mean, if you don't (for example) smoke marijuana, or take L.S.D. then your not using a certain % of your brain that these drugs utilse?

[~lostgurl~]

A link to some research backing your claim is all we are asking for, when none is given members tend to think what is being said is bullshit.
.........

From ScientificAmerican.com

Do we really use only 10 percent of our brains?

Brett, Baltimore, Md.

Barry L. Beyerstein of the Brain Behavior Laboratory at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver explains.

Whenever I venture out of the Ivory Tower to deliver public lectures about the brain, by far the most likely question I can expect as the talk winds up is, "Do we really only use 10 percent of our brains?" The look of disappointment that usually follows when I say it isn't so strongly suggests that the 10-percent myth is one of those hopeful shibboleths that refuses to die simply because it would be so darn nice if it were true. I'm sure none of us would turn down a mighty hike in brainpower if it were attainable, and a seemingly never-ending stream of crackpot schemes and devices continues to be advanced by hucksters who trade on the myth. Always on the lookout for a "feel-good" story, the media have also played their part in keeping the myth alive. A study of self-improvement products by a panel of the prestigious National Research Council, Enhancing Human Performance, surveyed an assortment of the less far-fetched offerings of the "brain booster" genre and came to the conclusion that (alas!) there is no reliable substitute for practice and hard work when it comes to getting ahead in life. This unwelcome news has done little, however, to dissuade millions who are comforted by the prospect that the shortcut to their unfulfilled dreams lies in the fact that they just haven't quite found the secret to tap this vast, allegedly unused cerebral reservoir.

Why would a neuroscientist immediately doubt that 90 percent of the average brain lies perpetually fallow? First of all, it is obvious that the brain, like all our other organs, has been shaped by natural selection. Brain tissue is metabolically expensive both to grow and to run, and it strains credulity to think that evolution would have permitted squandering of resources on a scale necessary to build and maintain such a massively underutilized organ. Moreover, doubts are fueled by ample evidence from clinical neurology. Losing far less than 90 percent of the brain to accident or disease has catastrophic consequences. What is more, observing the effects of head injury reveals that there does not seem to be any area of the brain that can be destroyed by strokes, head trauma, or other manner, without leaving the patient with some kind of functional deficit. Likewise, electrical stimulation of points in the brain during neurosurgery has failed so far to uncover any dormant areas where no percept, emotion or movement is elicited by applying these tiny currents (this can be done with conscious patients under local anesthetic because the brain itself has no pain receptors).

The past hundred years has seen the advent of increasingly sophisticated technologies for listening in on the functional traffic of the brain. The goal of behavioral neuroscience has been to record electrical, chemical and magnetic changes in brain activity and to correlate them with specific mental and behavioral phenomena. With the aid of instruments such as EEGs, magnetoencephalographs, PET scanners and functional MRI machines, researchers have succeeded in localizing a vast number of psychological functions to specific centers and systems in the brain. With nonhuman animals, and occasionally with human patients undergoing neurological treatment, recording probes can even be inserted into the brain itself. Despite this detailed reconnaissance, no quiet areas awaiting new assignments have emerged.

All told, the foregoing suggests that there is no cerebral spare tire waiting to be mounted in service of one's grade point average, job advancement, or the pursuit of a cure for cancer or the Great American Novel. So, if the 10-percent myth is that implausible, how did it arise? My attempts to track down the origins of the 10-percent myth have not discovered any smoking guns, but some tantalizing clues have emerged (more are recounted in the references below). One stream leads back to the pioneering American psychologist, William James, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In addition to his voluminous scholarly work, James was a prodigious author of popular articles offering advice to the general public. In these exhortatory works James was fond of stating that the average person rarely achieves but a small portion of his or her potential. I was never able to find an exact percentage mentioned, and James always talked in terms of one's undeveloped potential, apparently never relating this to a specific amount of gray matter engaged. A generation of "positive thinking" gurus that followed were not so careful, however, and gradually "10 percent of our capacity" morphed into "10 percent of our brain." Undoubtedly, the biggest boost for the self-help entrepreneurs came when the famous adventurer and journalist Lowell Thomas attributed the 10-percent-of-the-brain claim to William James. Thomas did so in the preface he wrote, in 1936, to one of the best-selling self-help books of all time, Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. The myth has never lost its steam since.

Other sources for the ubiquity of the 10-percent myth probably come from popular authors' misconstrual of scientific papers by early brain researchers. For example, in calling (for technical reasons) a huge percentage of the cerebral hemispheres the "silent cortex," early investigators may have left the mistaken impression that what is now referred to as the "association cortex" had no function. That was far from the researchers' intention, but that is what seems to have filtered through to the public. Likewise, early researchers' appropriately modest admissions that they didn't know what 90 percent of the brain was doing probably fostered the widespread misconception that the leftovers did nothing.

In my quest for the seminal utterance of the 10-percent myth, I frequently came across the claim that Albert Einstein had once explained his own brilliance by reference to the myth--Einstein's enormous prestige, of course, making it unassailable thenceforth. A careful search by the helpful people at the Albert Einstein archives, however, was unable to provide me with any record of such a statement on his part. So it remains probably just another of those instances where promoters with a point or a buck to make have misappropriated the clout of Einstein's name to further their own endeavors.

The 10-percent myth has undoubtedly motivated many people to strive for greater creativity and productivity in their lives--hardly a bad thing. The comfort, encouragement and hope that it has engendered helps explain its longevity. But, like so many uplifting myths that are too good to be true, the truth of the matter seems to be its least important aspect.

http://www.sciam.com/print_version.c...4683414B7F0000

[LateBloomer]

Consciousness is more important and more encompassing than the brain/mind and even if we use all our brain, we still have a massive problem that our consciousness is a minute 3% and it is trapped by 97% of our ego. What I have learned is that the mind is severely limited in the growth of a human being and the understanding of the mind, that is, psychology pales into insignificance to the understanding of consciousness, which is esoteric knowledge such as gnosis, buddhism, fakir, yogi, monk, the fourth way, etc.

That proposition is why the world is so degenerated and it's resolution will bring joy and happiness to the world.

Truly revolutionary ideas.