Validity of the Psychedelic Spiritual Experience

[Heretic.Ape.]

Have you had a spiritual experience involving psychedelic substances and do you feel said experiences are valid or simply show that spiritual experiences are explainable by "faulty" or otherwise dismissable brain functioning?
Or share your other explanations or thoughts on the validity of psychedelic induced spiritual experiences.
Labmonkey has had many experiences he would consider highly spiritual under the influence of mushrooms, lsd, mdma, and dxm. He feels that they are perfectly valid regardless of how one can explain them through brain functioning because such explanations do not detract from the subjective meaning and the fact that taking said substances merely allows easier access to spiritual experiences rather than outright causing them indicates there are other unaccounted factors involved.

Reputation Comments on this post:

cool post dude

[Mint boi]

Originally Posted by Ape

and the fact that taking said substances merely allows easier access to spiritual experiences rather than outright causing them indicates there are other unaccounted factors involved.

Swim has had a "spiritual experience" with psychedelics and he whole heartedly agree with what Ape said. If one compares the description's and parameters of a psychedelic induced spiritual experience and a "traditional" mystic spiritual experience s/he will find them almost exactly the same. Causal indifference says that a spiritual experience is a spiritual experience regardless of how it is induced.

My idea of a spiritual experience is a loss of the idea of one's "self" and greater connection with the universe, and new awareness of how everything is connected. Perception is completely altered and one sees everything with a new sense of awe, wonder and yet understanding. At least thats what its like for swim.

[Jacco]

Swim's belief in the validity of a hallucinogenic spiritual experience disappeared right after the drug wore off. A real spiritual experience would have stayed with him. Swim thinks he should try something a bit harder, like DMT, to get a more informed opinion.

[Heretic.Ape.]

Just as with any other form of spiritual experience, it is up to the individual to live according to whatever was experienced. I feel quite sure that there are plenty of born again christians, etc that aren't quite living up to their converting experience. The experience itself is rarely considered an end in any spiritual system, but as more of a starting point to wake the individual up to new horizons and values in life in order to live consistently within that state of consciousness.

Reputation Comments on this post:

couldn't have put it better - well said!

[Jacco]

Originally Posted by Heretic.Ape.

Just as with any other form of spiritual experience, it is up to the individual to live according to whatever was experienced. I feel quite sure that there are plenty of born again christians, etc that aren't quite living up to their converting experience. The experience itself is rarely considered an end in any spiritual system, but as more of a starting point to wake the individual up to new horizons and values in life in order to live consistently within that state of consciousness.

Perhaps so, but in this case the revelation made no sense, unless "body parts have minds and should be treated with respect" is a valid philosophy for living.

[Mint boi]

lol, sounds like a slavia trip swim had! I feel that with a strong spiritual experience will stick with you regardless, at least for a while.

[Swimster]

To swim, spiritual experiences change or agree with his current unique philosophy about life.

Although swim does not believe for example that magic mushrooms are actually "magical", he believes that they are tools to help you see. like eye-glasses.

[quili]

Swim would agree that certain mushroom experiences have stayed with her and changed/influenced her life- sometimes in tangible ways and other times they have just added to her own ever evolving philosophy and outlook to life. These types of things have no doubt had validity.

[Tortoise]

Excellent poll!

[Mint boi]

Id be interested in hearing from the swimmer who said no!?

Edit: By no i really mean: " Yes, I've had a spiritual experience but think it just shows that "spiritual" experiences are bogus"

[extrapale]

SWIM has had a psychedelic spiritual experience and feels that it is valid. When you come from the viewpoint that one's perception of reality is everything, and that there is no standard truth or reality, what is important is how it is interpreted. What SWIM believes is this; in our everyday lives, we exist with a mindset or perception that is severely limited, compared to what is possible. SWIM knows what is possible because SWIM has taken psychedelics. Who is to say that our dreams or our hallucinogenic spiritual experiences are not as "real" as our everyday experiences? What closes the deal for SWIM is that so many different people have experienced very similar things without ever having prior knowledge of others' experiences. SWIM doesn't think taking substances just "fires random neurons in the brain", as many would like us to think, instead, SWIM thinks that there is something "out there" that we all are able to tap into, some divinity or spirit, God, whatever you want to call it, and that psychedelics can be basically the fast track there, as opposed to the years of discipline and training that monks of all different faiths go through. SWIM doesn't think there is anything wrong with using the fast track, as long as one is prepared to see what is out there and to use any enlightenment towards positive change in one's life.

Reputation Comments on this post:

right on

[Nature Boy]

Yes, I've had a spiritual experience but think it just shows that "spiritual" experiences are bogus

If you think spiritual experiences are bogus then how would you have had one?

SWIM voted "other". He has had breath-taking experiences on all manner of psychedelics but isn't a fan of the word spiritual. Does one have to believe in a spirit to have a spiritual experience? SWIM doesn't believe in spirits so he could never have a spiritual experience by its strict definition. That being said, SWIM has had incredible times with his LSD, shrooms, ketamine etc. and doesn't doubt their recreational validity. Unfortunately it seems that recreational euphoria is frowned upon for some bizarre reason in our still backwards, dogmatized societies. Anti-prohibitionists need to cite "spiritual" and "religious" rewards in order to justify what should be anyone's right for whatever reason as long as they are responsible.

Heh, sorry for being difficult. I could have just gone for option B.

[Pino]

Here the same, swim has chosen option B. Because he isn't the spiritual type. He is a worldly orientated type of guy. However he can imagine, that his experience be classified as spiritual by others. For swim personally it was just an immensely aesthetic and pleasurable experience.

Swim thinks the question is biased: Yes, I've had a spiritual experience but think it just shows that "spiritual" experiences are bogus. It is a question, the voter not aware of any spirituality in himself, could not answer.

The ones how answer this one, are probably the people how think spiritual experiences of drugs are not real.

A better one would be: If you are not spiritual. Did you have a experience, which others would be classify as spiritual? (definition of spiritual follows).

Edit: Oh wait, swim should have chosen option other. Never mind.

[psyche]

Yes, swim beleives in the validity of the spiritual experiences induced by psychedelics. Extrapale pretty much said everything SWIM would've said to explain this opinion. SWIM thinks he can use a word spiritual even though he hasn't got a dualistic worldview per se, because the word is used in a context of describing an experience. But he agrees that the need of the use of this kind of words in order to use a word christians and laymen can relate to and have an impression of something else than merely feeling physically good is redicilous. The study of psilocybin mushrooms inducing religious experiments is ofcourse no shit -material, but it's quite good asset to use for people who believe in science. It's after all a SCIENTIFIC study. That word is like a certificate of undeniability. Even if behind the rigorous impression of scientific research they were only giving people the drug and asking them if they felt it was religious type of experience.

[I>A\/I>]

I have changed the title somewhat
just because not all experiences which may be called "spiritual"
may also be "psychedelic", and yet may be "drug involved".

========================

What is "spiritual"?

For the most part
(In this useage, as compared to a class of music called spiritual,
for example)
the word "spiritual" is used to imply a knowledge
"of somethng greater" which, when experienced,
imparts a sense of connectedness TO it,
therefore perhaps broadening the perception
of the experiencer to the fact
that there IS "something else" going on.

This is not the "normal" perception of "beingness":
but then you have to define "normal":
and many people have a continuing "connection"
to a "more spiritual place"
which is normal for them.

Therefore the above writer
who complained about the use of the word
"spiritual" has a good point.

Most of us long for "completion" in one way or another:
and most of us select our significant others
because they demonstrate a quality our subconsciousness yearns for.

Without segue'ing further into "anima and animus",
and this similar search
for "spirituality", I'll make my point.

The drug mediated "spiritual" experience
opens one to possibilities otherwise not contemplated:

am I better for knowing who I am, and what I can be,
than being stuck in some limited and conditioned perspective ???
My answer is "yes" and thank ??(....nameless grace...)?? for it.

Here at this site, as a lead-in to content,
is posted a fascinating exemplar
of the essence of the answer.

The "journey" we all are on in our lives
is given in explicit beauty by this trio of movie-ettes.

If it does not bring a spring to your heart,
and a tear to your eye..

then likely you should not be reading this thread.

Ayahuasca, The Snake & I

It is thru Ayahausca the trip is made,
as legitimate a usage of any ingestible
as can be postulated in this world of "ours."

A touching story for unsentimental reasons,
see if your heart does not yearn, as well....

[augentier]

A spiritual experience, whether drug-induced or not, is valid if the person experiencing it is open to his individual "higher self" (assuming that is what spiritual means these days) and attributes the symbols, feelings, insights to that higher self. If one has a mind-blowing experience but does not find any value in his visions, calling that a spiritual experience for the person would not be true.

Reputation Comments on this post:

very true, very insightful

[TMM]

SWIM has had an extrovertive mystical experience with mushrooms, the opposite of the ego-death route (introvertive), but resulting with everything in existence and non-existence as one. He has never had an experience he would call spiritual, because he is not inclined to interpret things in that manner.

I think it's difficult to say if a religious experience is 'valid' or not. Strictly speaking every experience should be considered valid, IMO, because interpretation of experience is an entirely separate thing from what actually occurred. It's generally accepted in some schools of thought, though, that state of consciousness makes no difference concerning the validity of an experience. I would tend to agree with that. However, an experience being valid does not mean it is 'proof' or 'evidence' pointing towards anything.

[Richi]

Personally, I don't use drugs but I meditate frequently. I have had spiritual, somewhat trance like experiences while practicing meditation that relate to the experience someone I know had under the influence of psychedelic drugs. Namely mushrooms, but even cannabis.

Drugs may open up new doors of perception that allow the user to view the world in new ways. The same can be said for any process that alters the mind-state of the person. After all, we are the machine that creates the reality we perceive we are in. Tinkering with the machine will change the reality.