Storing and degradation of tryptamines

[Fantasian]

SWIF wondered if he hypothetically had
4HO DIPT
5-MEO-MIPT
DPT

HOw should they be stored?

SHould they be odourless?

How can one tell if they've degraded?

If they have degraded is there a danger to health?

They have been stored with a dessicant at room temp in powder form, is this bad?

[trptamene]

Are these freebase? If not, what are their salts?


Regardless, this is a matter of preference and chemicals.

It has been established that phen's are pretty safe at room temp esp if stored in the dark under dessication (swim would put this under inert conditions as well, but this is overkill). Tryptamines are trickier, in particular 4-HO's are known to be unstable, and for this reason are often sold as the fumarate slat which is somewhat more stable than other forms. I think moxy would be pretty stable at room temp, but swim figures if you are going to take the effort to store one chemical under freezer conditions there is no reason swiy couldn't put three in there. Swim stores his in vials under vacuum or Ar in a glass dessicant with foil on the outside in the back of the freezer. He has seperate vials with a much smaller amount than the 1g amt that goes along with the RC business ( <10 doses).

For some people Ar or a good vacuum source are hard to come by and one could look into a water aspirator, but swim thinks he would look into the idea of using CO2 chargers (like for paintball) and seeing if he can't flush the vial with this...one would need to be careful to regulate the pressure as that coming directly from the charger would be much too high and one would see their chemical go up in a cloud of dust.

Some compounds have a smell, tell swiy to smell it when they first get it, if it has a smell...it's probably supposed to. If the smell fades or changes over time, maybe this could indicate something?

It is difficult to tell when these have degraded, one would think when a white compound turns black this would indicate degredation, but experience has shown that this is not always the case, as some swimmers have used these compounds and experience expected effects.

How long have they been stored this way? Swim thinks powder form is better than dissolved in a liquid, but he does not know if this is a fact.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great advice thanks!

[Fantasian]

They have been stored in a freezer for two months and then stored in room temp for one month. The smell appears the same, maybe slightly more pungent but still is definately the smell of the chemical. All 3 have stayed their original white colour.

THey have been stored with a dessicant the whole time and in complete darkness regardless of temperature.

Is it unsafe to use the degraded forms or is it simply that no effect would be gained from it.

Thanks for the advice so far.

All are hydrochloride salts (i think)

[snapper]

SWIM does not think it unsafe and many have found degraded trypts to be as strong as the sparkly white powder they started out as. SWIM has found that air, light, humidity and heat all cause degredation to occur faster. SWIM did notice a drop in effect with 5meoDIPT after 6-7 years of storage, but no color or odor change. The product was exposed to periods of heat and the vial was frequently opened, so maybe that did it. SWIM has AMT from the same time (now at least 10 years old) which is still very strong..

[Fantasian]

ok thanks, so we're talking years in general when referring to degradation.

[JackARoe]

SWIM thinks the assumptions of the degradation of tryptamines is worse than what actually happens. Yes, heat, light, oxygen, moisture will for sure make them decrease potency. But even stored at room temp in an airtight jar they will last for years. The Psychedelic Encyclopedia by Peter Stafford states that the degradation of LSD has been overrated and said potency would decrease by a half in a decade if not stored properly. Sure, keep a blotter out in the open and in a year will probably do nothing. Stored properly it would be fine. Albert Hoffman states that LSD is stable but fragile. Not unstable. When SWIM thinks of unstable alkaloids SWIM thinks of kavalactones which degrade in a matter of months regardless of storage

SWIM had 4-HO-MIPT for 2 years at room temp before he got the courage up to try it. Put it this way, SWIM was glad it wasn't stronger as it was an ass kicker.

Years ago when it was around SWIM would store blotter, gels, etc at room temp in airtight glass jars and 4 years later were just as good. So many years ago but swim remembers fondly.

SWIM hears Phens are completely stable.

[Rush]

SWIM found out that chemicals stored in a liquid tend to degrade faster than in powder form.
all the samples were stored in a closed, dark ambient, powders in simple plasic bags, all at room temperature, no dessicant or stabilizant or conservant was used.
this is the simplest form of storage possible.

in powder form the tryptamines changed their color as time passed:
5-meo-dmt (HCL) had the greatest change in color, from crystalline white to brown in two years.
this was accompained with a decrease in potency(SWIM guesses around 50-60%) though not inactive.
DPT(HCL) (2yrs old) had just a slight color change, it only became a bit yellowish(from white)
some decrease in potency was noted but not as much as 5meo-dmt
Amt(HCL) in liquid solution (water, room ambient, not freezed...in short, worst storing possible!) had a noticeable change in smell after two weeks, getting stronger with time. not only potency was decreasing over time, but some of the effects had something that were not tipical of amt. this applies to all tryptamines. SWIM experienced feelings of "something else" that were not expected.

this was confirmed testing liquid and powder amt in two different occasions,the second one giving a more definite "full amt experinece" and the liquid one, a "weak amt experience" mixed with something alien.though, this may be just a SWIM placebo sensation.

liquid storage(AMT freebase this time) using alchool(26%) lasts much longer, a month or two, and freezed even more.

Powder form (some months old) amt freebase, has no sign of degradation, at room temperature.

mdpv(not a trypt but may be useful to know this too), in liquid(water, room temp) exibhited signs of degradation in 2 weeks, maybe less.
this was noted from the intense smell, since the first days there was absolutely no smell.experience also seemed to be more "dirty" and toxic.also some kind of "precipitate" was noted in the solution.

5-meo-amt(HCL) in alchool(60%), was still active, with almost no sign of degradation after one year.
DiPT(HCL) in powder form still 100% active after a year. no color change.


in conclusion:
powder form is best way for storage.
if liquid form is needed,then alchool is best.
freezing is a good idea
5-meo-dmt degrades faster than other trypts tested here
color change(oxidation/browning) and smell change seem to be signs of degradation

[radiometer]

My buddy Eddie stores his chemicals like such:



The chemical is stored in a small ziplok, which is placed in a light resistant envelope. The envelope is then sealed with a vacuum food sealer. Such packages containing tryptamines are then placed in another, larger ziplok, and stored in the freezer.

[radiometer]

Originally Posted by JackARoe

When SWIM thinks of unstable alkaloids SWIM thinks of kavalactones which degrade in a matter of months regardless of storage

Kavalactones are not alkaloids.

[JackARoe]

Kavalactones are well, kavalactones. Not alkaloids is right. Thanks RM.

[69Ron]

Using a vacuum food sealer is an excellent idea. Typtamines are primarily destroyed by oxygen and light. That’s a great for storing psilocin. Most of the other tryptamines are pretty resistant to oxygen at normal temperatures, but will eventually oxidize after many years. According to SWIM, psilocin’s close cousin, bufotenine, is very stable and lasts many years when stored at room temperature in an airtight container.

SWIM has found that most typtamines, even DMT, store for a very long time just placed in an air tight jar at room temperature if they are stored as fumarate or tartrate salts.

When stored as freebase compounds, they are more vulnerable to attack by oxygen. The freebase compounds, after storage for several months, often form carbonate salts on their own if there is any air present in the container. With some tryptamines, the carbonate salts are hygroscopic and start becoming sticky or wet looking after a while. The last thing you want is to open your 5 year old freebase alkaloid only to find a hygroscopic sticky gooey carbonate mess that’s nearly impossible to measure doses from. So, if you want to store freebase compounds, you’ll likely want to use a vacuum food sealer or some other method to remove all the air before storing them.

Freezing greatly slows down chemical processes. But not everything can be frozen and remain intact. Freezing can actually destroy some types of alkaloids. Make sure the alkaloids you’re attempting to freeze are not destroyed by freezing! When in doubt, don’t freeze them.

[Panthers007]

I can't think of a tryptamine that cannot be frozen - as long as it's in a sealed container. Lack of moisture being key for successful storage. Airtight. Dark. Cold.

[trptamene]

Go get some drierite ppl! I saw it at the headshop...way over priced. I guess they use it for meth, make their solvent anhydrous...but that is a crappy way to go about it w/ epsom salt everywhere.

Also known as Calcium Sulfate. Dunno how effectively you can Use Mag sulfate (epsom salt) as a dessicant or not.

[69Ron]

Sorry, I need to correct myself. This statement above is a typo

Originally Posted by 69Ron

Freezing can actually destroy some types of alkaloids. Make sure the alkaloids you’re attempting to freeze are not destroyed by freezing! When in doubt, don’t freeze them.

I meant to type

“Freezing can actually destroy some types of chemicals. Make sure the chemicals you’re attempting to freeze are not destroyed by freezing! When in doubt, don’t freeze them.”

Most things can be frozen without a problem. It's recommended that LSD be kept frozen. Many people also keep DMT frozen. Psilocin is often kept frozen as well.

Certain chemicals cannot be frozen. It depends on the chemical structure. I don't know of any alkaloids that can't be frozen.

Some chemicals undergo changes at freezing temperatures. For example Vitamin E is destroyed by freezing temperatures. Many pharmaceuticals specifically state on the container that they should not be kept frozen.

Always check that your particular drug is freezer safe before freezing it. If you don’t know then I recommend storing it in the refrigerator instead of the freezer.

Some acids are destroyed by freezing. Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) undergoes degradation from prolonged freezing. Stored in the freezer for up to a year can destroy as much as 50% of it (or so I've read). So if you made the salt Psilocin ascorbate and stored it in the freezer for a year would the 50% of the ascorbate part of this salt degrade? Does anyone know the answer to this?

[69Ron]

Originally Posted by Rush

5-meo-dmt (HCL) had the greatest change in color, from crystalline white to brown in two years.

Hydrochlorates like the 5-MeO-dmt HCl above are usually a little bit hygroscopic. DMT HCl is so hygroscopic that it forms a dark gooey mess that will only crystallize in completely dry air. And when exposed to normal air DMT HCl eventually becomes wet by absorbing water from the air. This is probably what happened to the 5-MeO-DMT HCl. It eventually started absorbing water from the surrounding air making it heavier and darker. With the added water it would be a little less potent by weight. And once wet, it's more vulnerable to other types of degradation.

For alkaloid salts, storage life is highly dependent on both the alkaloid and the salt.

Acetates are known for very poor storage life. After lengthy storage, the acetic acid usually breaks away from the alkaloid leaving the freebase alkaloid exposed. Don’t use acetic acid (vinegar) for making alkaloid salts meant for long term storage.

Fumarates are usually known for excellent storage life. They are non-hygroscopic. This is why DMT is usually available as DMT fumarate for research purposes. Most of the other salts of DMT are either very hygroscopic or have short storage life. One interesting thing about fumarates is that alkaloids attach to both sides of fumaric acid so that there are two alkaloid molecules for every one fumaric acid molecule. For example, DMT fumarate is actually DMT + fumaric acid + DMT. There’s a DMT molecule on each end.

Tartrates are usually known for their excellent storage life. This is why such a delicate alkaloid like LSD is usually made into LSD tartrate. Tartaric acid is cheap. But many tartrates are unfortunately hygroscopic. LSD tartrate is not hygroscopic. Most tartrates are insoluble in alcohol while tartaric acid is soluble. This can be used to precipitate some alkaloids from alcohol, to either isolate them or separate them from other alkaloid tartrates that are soluble in alcohol.

Many citrates are also hygroscopic. Citric acid is about as hygroscopic as tartaric acid. It should only be paired with very non-hygroscopic alkaloids like LSD. Many citrates are insoluble in acetone. For example, about 75% of the alkaloids in Yopo (Anadenanthera peregrina, or even Anadenanthera colubrina) are soluble in acetone as freebase but insoluble as citrates.

Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is less hygroscopic than citric acid. But ascorbic acid is vulnerable to oxidation and should not be kept frozen. It’s not good for long term storage. You should probably avoid making ascorbates altogether. However, if you’re storing your alkaloids in liquid form, it’s a good idea to add ascorbic acid to keep your alkaloids from oxidizing. Ascorbic acid is a great antioxidant. But your alkaloids should be in the liquid in salt form combined with an acid that’s stronger than ascorbic acid so that ascorbic acid won’t form an ascorbate with your alkaloid.

Originally Posted by trptamene

Go get some drierite ppl! I saw it at the headshop...way over priced. I guess they use it for meth, make their solvent anhydrous...but that is a crappy way to go about it w/ epsom salt everywhere.

Also known as Calcium Sulfate. Dunno how effectively you can Use Mag sulfate (epsom salt) as a dessicant or not.

This is very good advice. Drierite works, but dried Epsom salt, known as magnesium sulfate, works better. Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate) is a wet form of magnesium sulfate and should not be used without first drying it in an oven.

Dried Epsom salt absorbs many times more water than Drierite does. Drierite only absorbs 0.066 grams of water per gram of Drierite. Dry magnesium sulfate absorbs about 0.8 grams of water for every gram of magnesium sulfate. That’s over 12 times more water absorbing capacity than Drierite. Drierite is not that useful.

The desiccant packs that are sealed so that the desiccant can’t escape and get all over your product are the best choice. They also sell oxygen absorbing packs which help prevent your product from oxidizing. Its good to put both in a vacuum sealable pack along with your product, and then vacuum seal it. Then freeze it or refrigerated it in a UV blocking container for maximum storage life.