Opinions - Suboxone

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by KRISSTO

The reason Reckitt puts the Naloxone in the Suboxone is because that was the requirement from the FDA if they were to produce a take home narcotic to be handed out to addicts. Here's a little good news though.

# 1 - The patent on suboxone expires this year and so generics will be available very soon. (unless Reckitt mfg finds an alternative use for it to get patent extended)

# 2 - You can use Suboxone to revive an OD victim if you shoot them with it. My wife is alive today because of this fact. (read my thread about using sub to save an OD'r)

# 3 - There is ways to extract the bupe from the subs. I don't know exact details but here are some facts: Bupe and Nal have different melting and decomposition temperatures. Some say that cooking water/sub at 420 degrees F. will fuck the Nal but not the bupe. If anyone tries this, beware but please report experience. Also, bupe and nal are soluble in different solutions. Some say that if you mix sub with 91 % isopropyl and use filter and draw orange alcohol out and let that dry, then add water, then eat or shoot up, there will be only a small fraction of nal left in it. Naloxone is sensative to light. It will become useless if you take the liquid solution and you don't protect it from light. Says so right on the bottles the paramedics carry. So maybe crush and add water to sub and let dry under intense light. I have tried all three of these methods at the same time and at least one of them works. I have narcan'd myself enough and I am scared to try them out one at a time to see which is the effective one(s). I did it with 2 of the 8/2mg tablets. Shot up the final solution while in a full blown habit on heroin. Felt great and no withdrawals from the Naloxone.

Read my thread titled "using suboxone to save an overdoser" This is a very true story and it could save your life one day. Spread the word about it. Read the whole thread. Not looking for brownie points but please read it for your own good. Also, if you try these methods of extraction, be very careful and if you have questions, pm me or I may start a thread with more specifics at another time.

I do believe suboxone could be used to revive an overdose victim. My marmoset has experienced this firsthand... either the marmoset snapped out of the overdose by stroke of luck, or a suboxone injection did reverse the overdose. The marmoset became violently ill upon regaining consciousness, skin turned back to it's normal fleshy tone (previously had been turning blue), and the marmoset found that upon regaining consciousness movement was not possible... it was like being a violently ill parapalegic. The marmoset's friend had to carry/drag her to the bathroom to vomit. By the night's end extensive vomitting caused the marmoset to have a very sore chest (the dry heaves). Prior to the suboxone injection there were no substances in the marmoset's system other than heroin or whatever else it may have been cut with (never can be quite sure what they cut that stuff with unless you feel like getting out the chemistry set and playing analytical chemist).

One thing do question about your post is that you claim to have IVed buprenorphine which was extracted from a buprenorphine/naloxone tablet, while having a heavy heroin habit. Buprenorphine will potentially reverse an overdose (in SWIM's opinion based on text book readings, internet readings, and direct observation) for the simple reason that buprenorphine has as someone had previously stated a very high binding affinity for mu (kappa I am unsure of how strong it's binding affinity). Also as previously stated by the same poster it will displace pretty much any other opiate. So, if you did manage to extract buprenorphine and inject it whist having a heavy heroin habit, I would think the buprenorphine would throw you into withdrawls as it is a moderate at best mu agonist and a kappa antagonist. Originally I believed that injection of a suboxone tablet could be used to revive an OD victim due to the naloxone present, but now am more convinced that the buprenorphine would possibiliy be responsible for bringing someone out of a overdose for the same reason it will throw you into withdrawl if you take it while still high on dope if you have a big habit.

If you do not have a heavy heroin, or other full agonist habit then while you will destroy all your veins in short order, you can I.V. buprenorphine/naloxone tablets with little ill effect (in most cases, individual sensitivities vary). However one has to be reluctant to tell things like this to people because it is hard to emphasize the COLLAPSING OF THE VEINS, and ABSESSES that seemly to accompany this practice with much greater frequency than other I.V. drugs. SWIM recently observed a room full of... "less knowledgable" people who believe whatever SWIM says. After explaining this to them, they decided to try this, and after one worked up the courage to do it and experienced little effect at first, the others proceeded one by one, until all had I.V.ed some amount of buprenorphine/naloxone tablets. 6 people total. The danger of the other 390,000 micrograms in the tablets worth of cut, binders, fillers, flavoring, etc fell on deaf ears. They heard SWIM tell them that it could be done, but did not seem to hear/care about the hazards of all the other crap in the tablets when administered via I.V. The end concensus was that there was no rush, it was indeed safe (at least for those 6 individuals, that one night), and it did provide an effect not much different than one would attain from normal sublingual adminstration.

[KRISSTO]

Yeah I'm sure it was the narcotic in the pill that saved your marmoset. Not the Naloxone. Naloxone wears off in an hour. If your marmoset was puking all night, it must have been the bupe. I was specifically told by the kind people who make the shit that the bupe is HARMFUL in this situation and will make an OD potentially worse. Call them and ask if you doubt it. It's toll free. Do the paramedics in your area give bupe shots to OD victims? Call them and ask them what they give people. NALOXONE. Brand name is NARCAN. All that textbook readin and a six pack of human lab rats. While you stood there warning them of dangers after convincing them to try a recipe you got on the internet from a self proclaimed ex junkie? Talk about whos blowing crack smoke up whos ass here. Why would someone inject a marmoset who's ODing with a sub tablet if not for the naloxone? Damn man talk about credibility issues here. But I will salute you as my superior here and I will go punish myself now. I know the drill.

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by KRISSTO

Yeah I'm sure it was the narcotic in the pill that saved your marmoset. Not the Naloxone. Naloxone wears off in an hour. If your marmoset was puking all night, it must have been the bupe. I was specifically told by the kind people who make the shit that the bupe is HARMFUL in this situation and will make an OD potentially worse. Call them and ask if you doubt it. It's toll free. Do the paramedics in your area give bupe shots to OD victims? Call them and ask them what they give people. NALOXONE. Brand name is NARCAN. All that textbook readin and a six pack of human lab rats. While you stood there warning them of dangers after convincing them to try a recipe you got on the internet from a self proclaimed ex junkie? Talk about whos blowing crack smoke up whos ass here. Why would someone inject a marmoset who's ODing with a sub tablet if not for the naloxone? Damn man talk about credibility issues here. But I will salute you as my superior here and I will go punish myself now. I know the drill.

I don't think SWIY understands. SWIM's marmoset did not have a choice in the matter. Of course paramedics do not give OD victims bupe shots, but if your marmoset was more than 20 minutes from reach of any ambulance or help of any kind, turning blue, not breathing, supposedly with a barely detectable pulse, then NARCAN is not really an option.

SWIM's own theory at the time was that suboxone should be able to be used as a last resort in the case of an overdose due to the naloxone in it (not realizing that anyone would have reason to actually have need to try it).

I am not going to "scold you" for your post as my marmoset feels it was just a misunderstanding, however the borderline flaming was a bit uncalled for. If you will note that I used the words "potentially", "idea", and "theory." The marmoset may have snapped out of it without aid of either buprenorphine or naloxone... or one or the other may have helped. It is not easy to overdose on buprenorphine alone.... There is an old joke in the medical community that it takes creativity and ingenuity to overdose on buprenorphine alone.

If overdose on buprenorphine occurs, it is difficult to reverse because naloxone does not have nearly as strong of binding affinity as buprenorphine does. Buprenorphine will displace heroin from someone who is high or dependent on heroin and still has dope bound to the receptors and cause a withdrawl similar to that precipitated by naloxone or naltrexone. These are facts that I know to be true and what I base my "theory" on. Buprenorphine does have a higher binding affinity than does naloxone. I never at any point stated this was a fact, but merely stated that bupe could "potentially" reverse an overdose. Either buprenorphine or naloxone are going to knock the dope off of the receptors.

Do you really think the manufacturers are going to tell you that shooting an overdosed individual up with a suboxone tablet will reverse an overdose? LOL even if they were pretty sure it would they would not say so at risk of a law suit.

But do not think I am saying for one second that if you can get someone to the hospitol, emergency room, ambulance or whatever you should just shoot someone up with a suboxone instead. I've told my marmoset that it would be a last ditch effort if no other help was available.

Also, the 6 lab rats injecting suboxone tablets had absolutely nothing to do with the marmoset who had overdosed several years earlier. The 6 lab rats did not have a heroin dependancy. SWIM did not even mention to the 6 lab rats anything about a suboxone tablet being used as a "last ditch effort" if you couldn't get someone help in time. The 6 lab rats asked if injection of suboxone would make them violently ill like the rumors they'd heard and SWIM only told them that "IF THEY WERE NOT DEPENDENT ON AN OPIATE OTHER THAN BUPRENORPHINE, THEY WOULD NOT BE THROWN INTO WITHDRAWL BY THE NALOXONE CONTAINED WITHIN THE SUBOXONE TABLET" SWIM reluctantly answered a simple question then tried to disuade them out of it by telling them of the damage it has been shown to do to peoples veins that do it regularly.

If my post was in any way unclear then I appologize, however if it was not, then DO NOT TWIST MY WORDS AROUND! I respect your post and had no desire to "scold you" as you put it until about...

All that textbook readin and a six pack of human lab rats. While you stood there warning them of dangers after convincing them to try a recipe you got on the internet from a self proclaimed ex junkie? Talk about whos blowing crack smoke up whos ass here. Why would someone inject a marmoset who's ODing with a sub tablet if not for the naloxone? Damn man talk about credibility issues here.

However I still am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you misread my post, or I was not clear. However I do not appreciate in particular the part I just quoted.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	You make some good points, so here's my points
	Krissto seemed to fly off the handle, but you dealt with it well and civilly, we need more cool heads like that

[Handle]

In my opinion, it would be Reckitt Benckiser who pushes the FDA to mandate their product for use in take away pharmacotherapies.

That would give them a) a corner on the production of naloxone [cause of the patent] and b) a guaranteed market to peddle it [cause of the FDA dictat] and a barrier to anyone else entering the market!

If you look at diversion, it doesn't stop diversion. Naloxone in a pill cannot stop that pill being given to another person.

If you want to cheaply stop injection, there is no reason why you can't just put the bupe in matrix patches. That would be the easiest, cheapest simplest solution.


As for resus, I don't dispute that in emergencies, naloxone has its uses. But you could just as easily advocate the wider distribution of real narcan for injection to drug using communities for emergency use when an ambulance is not yet available. Then you can get the benefits of pure naloxone, without the delay of messing around with tablets that were supposed to be used sublingually, and without all the chalk and talc or binders or whatever it is they use to bulk up the tabs.

I still feel strongly, that there is no compelling reason for naloxone to be added to buprenorphine other than the profit driven motives of Reckitt Benckiser.

And just say the patent does lapse? Big deal. then you'll just have brand and generics peddling this crap when nobody can tell me why it's necessary, or what it's supposed to be doing in there that can't be done easier and more cheaply in another way [matrix patches] -which incidentally is just as safe too.

And nobody has given a reason why RB charges such an exorbitant price for naloxone in suboxone, why it's supposed to be so expensive to make compared to bupe itself [which is actually a more complex molecule]

Nobody has come up with convincing defenses against any of these points.

[KRISSTO]

In the US, there is a movement that originated in Chicago to make pure Narcan available to addicts through prescription. The people at the needle exchange in my state have authorization to provide us with 6 vials and muscle syringes and the police can't do a thing about it. (legally). Of course, if a cop sees you with needles and a Narcan kit, they will take that as cause to search you for narcotics. It's a fairly new program and already has racked up thousands of rescues. After a 15 minute training period, anyone over 18 can get it here. But what you say makes sense because we all know the motivation for RB is their bottom line and they will protect that regardless what they have to do. It is recorded as a requirement by the FDA though.

[Handle]

Just referring back to Laudaphun, I basically agree there, you can pretty fairly split it and say, naloxone would cause early and short lassting effects, while the bupe would also have an effect for the hours that follow.

And you know, ok it may be partial agonist on several receptors, but especially compared to heroin it would be violently uncomfortable if a rush of bupe suddenly flooded the receptors.

My swim can state this from personal experience, because he has dosed too quickly after heroin use with subutex and suboxone respectively. Yes, the suboxone was more sudden and violent, but the bupe alone also caused a withdrawal syndrome with the full spectrum of effects we all know and "love".

So I think most here would agree that both the bupe and the naloxone are playing their own roles in the effects you have described.

[SmokeNmirrors]

Swim is prescribed suboxone and was wondering if he only takes one in the morning every day but doesn't take it the next day and chooses to get high instead...will he? Or how long must he not take it in order to feel the effects of heroin?

[Handle]

In my opinion, suboxine is a pretty powerful blocker, more so for the bupe within it, which as we have agreed is very long lasting.

In answer toy our question, it depends on dose and absorption. So, if you had a dose on one day of 8mg or more, and held it in your mouth for at least 2 minutes, in my opinion that will pretty effectively block other opiates in your system for at least the next 24hrs.

Use that as a yardstick. Anything 12mg or above, held in the mouth for about 5 minutes, can effectively block for two days. If anyone uses during that period, it may or may not 'work' in the eyes of an objective observer, like slower vital signs, constricted pupils blah blah blah, BUT the 'rush' will be almost entirely absent and you will have wasted your money.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Found advice very helpful.

[SmokeNmirrors]

Okay thanks swiy for that. Swim uses 8mg a day in the morning so about 24 hours thank you.