Experiences - Butalbital Experience Report (and an easy extraction technique)

[soma]

Hello Everybody,
I wanted to tell everyone about a positive experience report I found rolled up in a Wal-Mart parking lot (no I'm not swimming, I'm going to try a different technique to not be incriminating- mods, please let me know if this is any way in violation).

!!!!!--- This is the exact text of a piece of paper that I found wadded up in the parking lot---!!!!

Preface: I know very well the issues with excessive acetomiphen / APAP / paracetamol consumption, and made the decision to injest roughly 2g anyway. He knows the risk, and knows this is well within the max daily limit, even though it may not be best for his body. Yesterday, he consumed 1mg of alprazolam, the day before 4mg. I would like to compare the following to benzodiazepines, so I will do my best to try.

+11AM: The FedEx guy arrives with my present: 180 tablets of Butalbital/caffiene/acetominaphen

+11:01: Yeah, I can't wait. 3 tablets down the hatch, they are 40mg of Butalbital, 50mg of caffiene, and 325 of APAP.

+11:20: I had an empty stomach, but I wasn't expecting effects this fast. The tablets were rather hard, so I expected a slow release.

+11:50: SWIM feels as if he has injested 2mg of Alprazolam, very similar feeling with every so slightly less euphoria (I am a benzo fiend, so the thought of benzos make me euphoric. This may make me biased). Don't get me wrong, there was a great sedate euphoria, but very slightly less.

+11:55: Swim should note that there is slightly more body impairment with alprazolam - or so I think - I've been told I walk funny and talk funny on alprazolam, but I've never noticed it myself (oops).

+12:25: Effects waning slightly, same duration peak as alprazolam.

+1:30: I think I'm okay, so 3 more tablets are injested.

+1:50: Holy fuckin shit, huge body buzz, huge head buzz. 6mg of alprazolam + a carisoprodol-like body buzz. Feelin great.

+3pm: Still feeling good.

+4pm: I feel like I'm closing in on baseline.

+7pm: I never really got there, I remained relaxed for the rest of the day and slept well. The relaxation was comparable to 10mg of diazepam/valium.

Conclusion: I found Butalbital to be very pleasurable in higher doses, not as much in lower doses. There is DEFINATE recreational potential for this drug, and I wouldn't discount it as useless as many other people told me. It can be very potent, and driving would be a terrible idea, and there is always the risk of APAP, so be mindful of that. The max daily dose on APAP in the US is 4g/day, so 2g/day seemed safe to me. If you are more concerned than I, then by all means, get some good benzos. However, in the US, these are unscheduled (so long as they are compounded with APAP, otherwise its a Schedule III) so they are easily obtained legally via online pharmacies (mods, let me know if that comment was out of line - I'd like to maintain a good rep on this board).

Please also note that I am an experienced pharm user- my list looks something like this: Alprazolam, Temazepam, Clonazepam, Diazepam, Lorazepam, Triazolam, Carisoprodol, Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, Morphine, Codiene, Propyloxyphene, Methylphenidate, Amphetamine Salts (Adderall), Levomethylphenidate, and much more. I'm not an unexperienced user feeling a placebo effect

!!!!--- Please note that the above was found on a wadded up piece of paper in a parking lot, I have nothing to do with the above report, nor do I know who does---!!!!

Hope you enjoyed the report about the underrated substance. Hopefully I'll find more such pieces of paper in other parking lots!

[Jatelka]

Interesting report, thanks for sharing.

I have to say, though, using drugs compounded with Paracetamol (apapthingy) recreationally seems a recipe for disaster.

The author of the piece of paper you found kept under the maximum 24 hour dose. But barbs cause anterograde amnesia, and it would be easy to discover later that a liver failure inducing dose of paracetamol had been inadvertantly ingested

For harm reduction purposes, unless something to remove the Paracetamol could be found, recreational Fioricet use CANNOT be recommended

[soma]

The author is sure that for many people with lower tolerances, Butalbital would cause profound amnesia. Oddly enough, the author experienced none- even though high doses of benzodiazepines definently do. Its always good to be reminded of the dangers of APAP, there are too many uneducated drug users out there who have no idea that APAP is harmful, or no idea what APAP is.

However, the author thinks that its a bit of a stretch to say that no substance with APAP is abusable- so long as the dose does not escalate. Absolutely, the author thinks that if the user is irresponsible and/or forgets how many SWIY has taken, that IS a recipe for disaster. However, I can only believe that the dose the author injested is REASONABLY safe, as the dose is only equal to two doses of Maxium Stregnth Tylenol, injested in two separate doses 4 hours apart (which, ironically enough, is the exact medical recommendation of the very box of Max. Stregnth Tylenol). At least in the United States, this is one of the most common analgesics and contains 500mg of APAP in each tablet, and each dose is 2 tablets.

Please do note that the author KNOWS that APAP is utter crap, and that it is never truly safe. However, he still believes that this dose is reasonably safe, as it was taken exactly per FDA (the US drug regulation dep't) requirements. He believes that such an experiement can be untertaken by very responsible drug users who know they can control their dose (or only have six tablets, for that matter). He knows the danger of anteriograde amnesia all too well, as once under the influence of Zolpidem, he injested the entire rest of the bottle for no appearant reason. However, for experienced users, he believes its a stretch to say that absolutely no APAP-compounded drug has recreational potential.

[soma]

I also wanted to note that the author kept feeling the "relaxation" effects up to 24 hours later. The half-life of butalbital is no joke -- 36 hours. Jatelka, I'm interested to see what you think about my comments above, I know you fear APAP for good reason, but do you really think there is NO place for APAP in recreation? The author agrees, by the way, that if you suffer from anteriograde amnesia it very well could be dangerous, but I'm more curious what you think about experienced downer-users or those with limited supplies. Do you think the author's experiment was fairly safe? I'm very curious, as I've seen your posts and I respect your opinion.

[Psych0naut]

It is very easy to extract pure butalbital from Fioricet, and leave out nasty paracetamol and caffeine. Crush up the pills to a fine powder and dissolve them in water, shake the solution for a while so all the caffeine and soluble binders dissolve in the water. Filter the solution and discard the water. Add the remainders to a fresh amount of water and add some lye(sodium hydroxide) and shake well. The butalbital will turn into the water soluble sodium salt and dissolves in the water, the paracetamol stays undissolved, together with the undissolved binders. Filter the solution and keep the solution, discard the filter with the paracetamol and other crap. Now slowly add hydrochloric acid to the solution untill precipitation stops. By adding hydrochloric acid to the sodium butalbital solution the sodium butalbital turns into the unsoluble free base and precipitates. After filtering the solution one is left with practically pure butalbital, free from harmful paracetamol and jittery caffeine, as well as binders!

Reputation Comments on this post:

	This subject has come up several times and I don't think anyone has every given an easy extraction: Many thanks
	Great extraction technique!

[asd123g]

Originally Posted by Psych0naut

It is very easy to extract pure butalbital from Fioricet, and leave out nasty paracetamol and caffeine. Crush up the pills to a fine powder and dissolve them in water, shake the solution for a while so all the caffeine and soluble binders dissolve in the water. Filter the solution and discard the water. Add the remainders to a fresh amount of water and add some lye(sodium hydroxide) and shake well. The butalbital will turn into the water soluble sodium salt and dissolves in the water, the paracetamol stays undissolved, together with the undissolved binders. Filter the solution and keep the solution, discard the filter with the paracetamol and other crap. Now slowly add hydrochloric acid to the solution untill precipitation stops. By adding hydrochloric acid to the sodium butalbital solution the sodium butalbital turns into the unsoluble free base and precipitates. After filtering the solution one is left with practically pure butalbital, free from harmful paracetamol and jittery caffeine, as well as binders!

Does anyone have SWIM that has successfully tried this inorganic reaction? Or is this some chemistry theory?

[Jatelka]

Every flamingo thinking of using Fioricet for recreational use: Read the above post. Several times, and then read it again.

No flamingo now has an excuse to ingest paracetamol with their barbiturate.

[Boca Bitch]

Originally Posted by Jatelka

Every flamingo thinking of using Fioricet for recreational use: Read the above post. Several times, and then read it again.

No flamingo now has an excuse to ingest paracetamol with their barbiturate.

SWIM did some research outside of these forums, and is now seriously doubting the CWE method when dealing with barbiturates. Apparently, butalbital is very slightly soluble in room-temp water (20 C), and highly soluble in hot water (100 C).... which is the same as caffeine. Acetaminophen I'm not sure about, but I figure it can't be too far off.

[Laudaphun]

Originally Posted by Boca Bitch

SWIM did some research outside of these forums, and is now seriously doubting the CWE method when dealing with barbiturates. Apparently, butalbital is very slightly soluble in room-temp water (20 C), and highly soluble in hot water (100 C).... which is the same as caffeine. Acetaminophen I'm not sure about, but I figure it can't be too far off.

SWIM could be wrong, after reading throught the extraction technique, it would seem that it was never suggested to do a mere CWE in order to separate the butalbital from acetaminophen. It states that H2O is used to extract only the caffeine along with H2O soluble binders/fillers.

Note that solution is filtered and discarded, and as opposed to the CWE technique used for codeine, in which the codeine and acetaminophen are easily separated in aqueous phase, the butalbital is retained (still combined with the acetaminophen upon the intial H2O extraction). If you are starting with butalbital/codeine/caffeine/APAP tablets then the technique would remove the not only the caffeine, H2O soluble binders/fillers, but also the codeine. This might explain why someone using these tablets above found the solution from the first extraction to produce effects, as the solution would have the majority of the codeine in it.

However the extraction technique described above uses butalbital/APAP/caffeine tablets as a starting material, which it saws removes only caffeine in the aqueous extraction. The remaining solid material is then added to H2O, and then treated with a base to allow the butalbital to become soluble in the aqueous phase and separated from the acetaminophen. After separation, it then is percipitated from the H2O with an acid. So it is important to note it wasn't suggested to just do a CWE, but rather a CWE followed by an A/B extraction.

Also, just because it works for acetaminophen, does not mean that it will work for aspirin (acetylsalycic acid, which may affect the end result given that it is an acid). The Merck Index lists chemicals in their various forms, and often pharmaceuticals must be made into salts in to be absorbed by the body.

That is all just SWIMs theory based on review of the original suggested technique. SWIM decided to review the literature for herself as she decided a bookshelf 5 feet away wasn't too much effort. According to the Merck Index, it states that Butalbital is:
"practically insoluble in H2O and petroleum ether"
"Soluble in alcohol, chloroform, ether, acetone, glacial acetic acid, and also in solutions of fixed alkali hyxdroxides"
It also notes that a "saturated aqueous solution is acidic when tested on litmus paper."

So the extraction technique seems perfectly reasonable to SWIM. After referencing the data in the Merck it seems to be, in theory a very keen idea for butalbital/caffeine/APAP tablets.

SWIM thinks that preparations containing asprin and/or codeine may require an altered method.

[soma]

Amen, SWIM did not know that there was a method of extraction for this particular compound! Great post Psychonaut, as SWIM finds it to be a very fun recreational substance, and knows well the harms of APAP. Should SWIM exceed recommended dosage (roughly 1g), he will use this extraction. 1g is the standard dose of OTC Tylenol/APAP in the United States, so he figures it be a small risk.

[JaWill88]

can bubalbital be injected in water soluble solution? intravenously?

[soma]

No, even if the following extraction is used, you would not want to inject it. There very well may be remaining APAP, fillers or binders, and god knows what else (lye?!?). Too risky. Plus, the oral bioavailibility of butalbital is very good, so there is not much point in injecting butalbital. In the interest of hard reduction, please dont. Its just not worthing an amputated arm, or worse.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Wise Advice

[Laudaphun]

However, in the US, these are unscheduled (so long as they are compounded with APAP, otherwise its a Schedule III) so they are easily obtained legally via online pharmacies (mods, let me know if that comment was out of line - I'd like to maintain a good rep on this board).

Is this really true? SWIM was always under the impression that fioricet was schedule 3 in the U.S. Not doubting you, just would like some confirmation on the scheduling.

[soma]

Yes, it is true, oddly enough. Fioricet- Butalbital/APAP/Caffiene remains unscheduled due to a DEA Scheduling Exception. Other compounds such as FioriNOL- Butalbital/Aspirin/Caffiene ARE Schedule III. Also, Butalbital in its pure form is a Schedule III. This is why you can purchase Fioricet from online pharmacies with ease- its unscheduled along with Tramadol and Carisoprodol.

[asd123g]

Does anyone have a friend who has successfully tried this extraction? If so, have you received any feedback from them?

This is my first post, so I hope these questions are within the rules

[BBBoy]

SWIM has tried many times in the last days to extract the butalbital from fiorinal C 1/2 containing aspirin (NOT fioricet containing APAP). SWIM has done lots of tests with the CWE. Swim has been carefull to make weight measurements of everything. SWIM tried both the water of the extraction and the aspirin (yes that is a lot of aspirin, sometimes more then 3g in one shot, hello liver damages ) to come to the conclusion that the butalbital must be somehow soluble. Swim extracted many times as much as 10 fiorinals C 1/2, tried the aspirin and swim felt absolutly NOTHING. On the other end the water is very intoxicating. SWIM dosent know if thats just the codeine or if the butalbital is also present. Any way, taking the aspirin thats supposed to be containing the butalbital does nothing...

SIWM is starting to believe that the information that the information about butalbital available everywhere (including the merck ref.) might be the raw material and is modified in the process of making the fiorinals but SWIM dosen't really know. Maybe the butalbital we get in the fiorinal is soluble ?

If anybody has information on this, plz help !