Oral use - What is the ideal psychedelic research chemical for a newbie?

[Alfa]

What would you consider the ideal research chemical for a newbie to get acquainted with psychedelic research chemicals? Please explain why.

The substance should have a short duration(3.5 hours max), should be easy to handle and have no serious side effects. It will be useful if the research chemical is legal in Europe.

As the prefix shows, we are talking about oral use of research chemicals.

[candy_kid]

iprocin aka 4-ho-dipt is the one swim and his friends decided would be the best newbie RC. It has a euphoric (but relaxed) body high, enjoyable (and light) psychedelic mindset and lacks full on visuals; instead causing objects to 'shimmer' - the duration is only 4 hours and the dose/effect curve isn't all too steep - this would also very likely be legal in Europe unless there are blanket analogue laws there? (in which case I doubt much would be legal anyway)

[Nagognog2]

Lack of body load? Short(ish) duration? Not overwhelming (if taken as suggested)? Orally active? ...........2-CB-Fly. And it's legal.

[C-rok]

2c-i @ 10mg on empty stomach is a light threshold experience for first timers 1-2 hours peak(peak is nothing more than trails and wall patterning at this dose) 3 hours afterglow...the major drawback is long(1.5 hour) comeup.

[nanobrain]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

Lack of body load? Short(ish) duration? Not overwhelming (if taken as suggested)? Orally active? ...........2-CB-Fly. And it's legal.

have to heartily second that, the 2-CB-FLY that is, from third persons first hand experience pov. the transition to a highly enhanced state is so gentle at doses 10mg and under that it may go unnoticed. coupled with no anoretic activity and no noted side effects or hangover, this material has/had tremendous potential, both for research and therapy. i'd also venture 2C-D, oh so not forgotten ;-(

[Jatelka]

My Flamingo would disagree with 2C-I. For her, body load and anxiety can be very prominent, even at low doses. For the unexperienced this would be majorly off-putting.

It's also covered by the Ammendment to the Misuse of Drugs Act (in the UK), and she's fairly certain it's illegal elsewhere in Europe.

[rxbandit]

Although a fairly high dose is needed in comparison. 2C-C is fairly short, mildly sedating and pleasant.

DPT is also a really pleasant chemical with a really short duration. Nice euphoric, interesting visuals, not to intimidating. one of swims favorite

5-meo-mipt would also probably be farely fun for a newbie

as would methylone, which is a more mellow mdma substitute IMO.

[Alfa]

methylone is no psychedelic though.
2C-I has been outlawed by the EU.

[rxbandit]

my mistake, swim thinks most pyschedelic RC's would be good for a newbie as long as they start with a low dose, dosage seems to be the downfall of most who experience negative or overwhelming effects.

[chrisn]

4-AcO-DMT. It has a reasonably short duration (4-7 hours), is not too dose sensitive, and has no real side-effects to speak of. Very easy in the lower levels, and extremely valuable at the higher levels. One of the worries about this compound was that it would degrade into 4-HO-DMT, which is quite illegal, but luckily it appears to be extremely stable, which is another benefit toward newbies who may not be experienced with storing research chemicals. 4-AcO-DMT also tends to have a slow and easy comeup, which is good for reducing anxiety.

[snapper]

4ho- / 4 aco-MIPT is an excellent starter. Very psychedelic, very friendly and short acting. SWIM had some odd and disturbing things happen with 2CBFly so would be more cautious with that one. SWIM also votes for 2-CC, which is mild and near-immune to being overwhelming. By that same token, an appropriate dose of2CD would also be an excellent starter. None of these should be too much unless overdoses, all are short acting with minimal crash, all are good-feeling as opposed to neutral or worse, and all are somewhat representative of a classic psychedelic experience as opposed to a more empathogenic or more selectively sensory experience.
SWIM feels 4aco DIPT has a more variable body load and is a little quirky. Perhaps this is only for SWIM, and cannot comment on 4ACO DMT, though SWIM would rather start with one of the above than a psilocybe.

[Nagognog2]

Hmmm....I guess there really isn't one! I would suggest a lot of research and reading would be the best mind-expanding thing one could do. Now that the simplistic has been brought to the deeper levels.

Bongo likes to talk to people - at length - before suggesting anything further. Unfortunately the guy on the street corner has something cheaper for rent.

Perhaps this thread could be turned into a list of good literature for people to read and study before taking such an animal. I'll start:

The Doors Of Perception - Aldous Huxley

[snapper]

The Fabulous Furry Freak Bros.?

[Alfa]

No books. That would be a excellent new thread.

I'll add a poll to this thread later. Let's add the requirement of maximum 3.5 hours effect to narrow the range of research chemicals down.

[trptamene]

The king of egypt told me that he found a low dose of psilocin ( <10mg) to be a good introduction to psychedelics for his lab rats, although most probably won't consider this an RC.

psilocin has been found a rather large LD50 relative to its active dosages

Originally Posted by erowid

LD50 285 mg/kg i.v.(mice)
LD50 280 mg/kg i.v. (rats)
LD50 12.5 mg/kg i.v.(rabbits)
Dosage (humans)

Oral Psilocybin Dosages
Threshold 2 - 4 mg
Light 4 - 8 mg
Common 6 - 20 mg
Strong 20 - 40 mg
Heavy 35 + mg

In addition it occurs naturally in magic mushrooms and has been used for thousands of years for religious purposes.

The king said both of these qualities can put the lab rat at ease, especially when compared to something like 2ct7 or AMT where a speciman may have heard rumors of death and could lead to negative mind loops in unexperienced animals, particularly if it comes with a high body load.

But in contrast to mushrooms, the king has much more precision over dosage and, since he knows his source, knows exactly what is going into his animals bodies. The active compound is freely available for absorption and must not be digested out of the mushroom, and if this done on an empty stomach, this can make for a quick come up and plateau which can help with dosing before an unexperienced monkey takes more because they "aren't feeling it yet" re:STP

"With a <10mg dose of psilocin response to the drug was all gone with a pleasent buzz at T+4hr"

"Of course a true mushroom experience cannot be missed by any lover of the psychedelic experience", says the pharoph.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Always a pleasure to read your very well informed posts!

[joechip666]

Originally Posted by Alfa

What would you consider the ideal research chemical for a newbie to get acquainted with psychedelic research chemicals? Please explain why.

The substance should have a short duration(3.5 hours max), should be easy to handle and have no serious side effects.

2C-C, since it meets all of the above criteria. It's completely non-threatening to most people (though I think nanobrain once had a bad reaction to it) and has a relatively short duration.

It will be useful if the research chemical is legal in Europe.

Unfortunately, I think that the EU may made it illegal. Erowid doesn't seem to have any information on this so I may be wrong though.

[genaro]

swim wouldn't advise 2C's to beginners...these are extremely strong, and these are the only compounds swim tried that ever made swim think "that is drug" (in the negative way, i.e. heavy dirty influence distorting your soul)

...that makes swim remind about the 2ct2 evil spirit, meaning feeling just like pure evil during the trip (and it wasn't bad trip or paranoia linked, just a soul feeling going along with the trip which was going ok)...quite a terrible mindset that seems to be manifesting with 2ct2 a times (swim know at least one other person that reported the same feeling about 2ct2 and if swim recall well, another member from the forum discussed something like that a while ago).


as for psychosis, 2c's (and notably 2ct2) seem prone to induce delirium/psychosis when the trip escape one's hand.

Also note that swim (and one other person) experienced extreme overheating from only 25mg 2cd orally (meaning dangerously high body overheat that suggested swim that some more could possibly be lethal to a few sensitive people ).
...which is even more freaky if you consider that shulgin reported no bad effects from 50mg 2cd, meaning that people react quite differently to 2C's, and some do react in a very dangerous way (thus making dosing dangerously unpredictable for one that never tried the drug before)

And swim might also mention freaky side effects from high dose of 2ct2 (painful spasm going through the all body, feeling like nerves extremities are burnt, bad body tension probably muscles linked, feeling all clenched).

At last, once the trip is over, one needs one full weak (or even more) before feeling completly out of it.
...which mean that regular 2C-x use can be really dangerous for one's mind (psychologically speaking), cause your mind and body need quite some time to recover completly from it (which is not the case from most other psychedelics, so swim thinks 2c's are to be taken with great moderation)

These are a few reasons of all kind that makes swim think 2C's are not for the newbie.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good information

[Alfa]

What dosage of 2-CT-2 are you relating to Genaro? 2-CT-2 has been for sale in the Dutch smartshops for quite some years and 99% of the users where able to handle the effects easily. Though some users where extremely sensitive and had a full blast psychedelic trip of long duration from a normal dose of 20 mg. Those users overall had a body fat percentage that was higher than average.
Other than that I think 2-CT-2 is the only 2C that is easy on most newbies. But 2-CT-2 is not legal in Europe.
Since most 2-C's have a duration of 6+ hours, AFAIK this duration would exclude them from the conditions above.

[grandbaby]

Originally Posted by Alfa

I think 2-CT-2 is the only 2C that is easy on most newbies.

I disagree. SWIM found 2C-T-2 to have a heavy and disturbing bodyload even at lower doses, and generated a fluttery, heavily weird mindspace that was - while interesting and entertaining to the experienced psychonaut - most definitely not something he'd recommend to newbies. His friend had a very long (10+ hours), heavy, heady trip on 22mg.

2C-I at lower doses (>10mg) he has found a much "friendlier" substance, one he has no qualms about introducing to the inexperienced. I understand it's out of the running, though.

From everything he's read, 2C-D sounds like the ideal 2C, with few very negative reports available and a very short duration. If only it were available.

[snapper]

SWIM found the three 2CT series SWIM has sampled (2,4 &7) to all carry a bodyload and can be somewhat unpredictable in effects... that said, the symptoms geraro describes are a bit extreme. Was the material from one supplier ? There have been many different batches of this and some are certainly of higher quality than others.

SWIM agrees that of the three, 2ct2 is the best of the bunch. 2ct7's visuals are insane but that one is definitely not for newbies...
Out of the whole phen family, 2cc is the least likely to ever pose a problem.. if anything, it will whet the palate for other phychedelics with stronger effects. Even at high doses, 2cc is a tease.

[genaro]

adverse symptoms swim described (about 2ct2) were probably that pronounced because the monkeys were mostly insufflating the 2ct2 (usually snorting a single 14mg dose, if swim recalls well about the dosages, not so sure).
And swim can say that snorting 2C's is a really bad idea as these compounds are particularly dangerous this way, and negative side effects becomes very present (ruining the spiritual and peaceful parts of the trip)
...but even if swim consider that mentionned side effects were quite exegerated by the choosen route of absorption (snorting), that still means that these side effects are peculiar to 2C's (or at least to 2ct2)
...these might be much more gentle with oral use, but these are still there in some way as the biological properties of a compound will always remain the same, whatever the route of absorption is (By the way, swim confirms that oral use of 2ct2 is MUCH more pleasant, side effect beeing more subbtle, so the trip is much more enjoyable and fun).
Anyway, swim thought it was important to mention the most extreme side effects he had felt from 2c's, as that give a rough idea of the toxicity of the stuff (snorting just dig it up).

Now, as for the overheating, it was caused by oral use of 25mg 2cd (not snorted). So this one is definately one that people should be careful about (despite swim thinks it's one of the most enjoyable in low dose).

ps: compounds were very good quality, from ********.

Reputation Comments on this post:

source please read the rules.

[Alfa]

14 mg 2c-t-2 snorted!!!!!

That may be a tad bold. I'd say that is twice a full dose.

But back on topic: The ideal psychedelic research chemical for a newbie.

[genaro]

swim disagree.

Considering that strong oral 2ct2 dosage is 32 to 48mg

and considering that insufflated dose has to be 40% the oral dose,

then 14mg 2ct2 insufflated is roughly similar to 35mg orally, which is a strong dose, but not excessive
...by the way swim has a doubt right now, maybe he was using 12mg pills (not 14mg), so that would be more like 30mg orally (which is still a strong dosage). Anyway, swim is pretty sure he was using less than 15 and more than 11mg, must have been 12 most probably.

[Alfa]

Originally Posted by genaro

Considering that strong oral 2ct2 dosage is 32 to 48mg
...which is a strong dose, but not excessive

I would surely call that excessive. Erowid may state 32-48mg as a strong dose, but that is not accurate. FUBAR has seen a lot of filled in questioners on 2ct2 back in 2000 when this was legal in the Netherlands and for sale everywhere here.
Although each person can react differently. FUBAR's ideal dose for 2ct7 for example is 50mg. Something others might find excessive, as a newbie may have a extreme experience on it.
But FUBAR would not dare to ingest 35 or even 48 mg of 2ct2 in one dose. FUBAR has seen a lot of filled in questioners on 2ct2 back in 2000 when this was legal in the Netherlands and for sale everywhere here.

[Nagognog2]

As stated elsewhere, Bongo finds 8 - 12mg 2-CT-2 a usable dose. Has range wanted without excess bodyload. Feels more like a medium amount of Peyote. Quite pleasant.