Opinions - How influential is the Church?

[Petethemeat]

"As one Vietnam Vet - whom I disagreed with constanstly - stated: "If it wasn't for religion, some people would have no morality at all."

I had to conclude he was right."

However that just shows that people fear retribution for acts. It does not validate religion- equally you could say that an all-seeing observation system which scrutinises your every move would logically eviscerate crime- yet few argue for a 1984 style totalitarian state.

Morality is not linked to mere fear of retribution, people will do moral things without threat or promise of reward.

[Panthers007]

While I agree with your premise that it is unneeded in many forms - I had to agree that SOME people are born without any morality. This is where a church can make a large difference.

Unfortunately this difference can be very dangerous. Such as the morality of the old South, where churches (white) taught their parishioners to treat Black people as second class citizens. And that Jesus wants you to lynch them if they want the right to vote.

So I believe we are in basic agreement.

[dr ACE]

the freedom to believe whatever religion you choose is part of the constitution and america would be a much worse place without that right.

there are more diverse religious movements in america than anywhere else i guess and this can only be a good thing as long as it doesn't produce ignorance and anti-Semitism towards the rest of the world religions

[FuBai]

I am very dubious about exactly what we mean when we say morality, especially in the context of "being born without" it. I worry that the understanding implied is too simplistic in that it doesn't distinguish between what I call base morality, which is born of human instinct and genetic Darwinism, and morality which I call social morality which no one is born with but is a product of social Darwinism. It's obviously even more complex than that especially if you say that morality is indeed formed through a higher truth or purpose, rather than it simply being a useful product of our genetic and social evolution.

[dr ACE]

Originally Posted by FuBai

I am very dubious about exactly what we mean when we say morality, especially in the context of "being born without" it. I worry that the understanding implied is too simplistic in that it doesn't distinguish between what I call base morality, which is born of human instinct and genetic Darwinism, and morality which I call social morality which no one is born with but is a product of social Darwinism. It's obviously even more complex than that especially if you say that morality is indeed formed through a higher truth or purpose, rather than it simply being a useful product of our genetic and social evolution.

WTF???

this thread is gettign VERY weird indeed LOL

i dont understand where your comming from there man

[Bikelbees]

This seems to be what I was told Fubai, and the idea of been born evil does seem at odds with socialist principles - but maybe Panthers007 is right, some of us have those little tattoos from birth do we not?

[Paracelsus]

What does your genetic darwinist morality consist of? Killing a rival male to be able to rape a female and perpetuate the species undisturbed?

Marx was way too optimistic in his theories. While his ideal socialist world would be a nice place, not nearly all people are willing to work hard and share everything for the common good. It is in our animalistic nature to be selfish assholes. Our goal as intelligent and highly evolved beings is to get over these basic instincts. One doesn't have to be religious in order to accomplish this. Of course, it helps for many.

[dr ACE]

the church is as infulential as you let it to be dhuu.

double post shit had to say somting i did'nt think of @ first

[Panthers007]

Define Morality 101: You see a car drive off the road and crash and catch fire. Do you:

1. Keep driving.

2. Stop and take photographs.

3. Stop and help.

Your answer defines morality in my book.

[dr ACE]

so morality is like how much do you value life? is there a reason to being alive as we undestand it,this threard wil have no conclusion....

[El Calico Loco]

Religion is not the problem. Religion is just a subset of ideology, but even that's not really the problem. The problem is that small subset of humanity - let's just call them The Evil - that is willing to use deception and violence to obtain power...and the much larger subset that falls for the manipulations and does violence in service of the cause.

The stupid Evil commit crimes of passion or opportunity and go to prison.
The smarter Evil get involved in organized crime and corrupt the justice system.
The smartest Evil take established ideologies, twist them to suit their purposes, and go into politics.

Much evil has been done in the name of Moses, Christ, and Mohammed - but much has been done in the name of Marx or "the people" as well. Atheists tortured and murdered more human beings in the 20th century than the Inquisition did in its entire history...all in service to The Cause. Replacing God with communism didn't stop them from creating horrors. Clever psychopaths will always find some justification/rationalization for their bad acts regardless of the prevailing philosophy - all they need is a sufficient number of ignorant, gullible enforcers to do their bidding.

And there's no shortage of ignorance in the world.


ECL

[FuBai]

To understand morality you can't hope to think of it as something that is solid or instantly apparent. Some naked Grecian didn't leap out of a bath and run around screaming "Eureaka, Eureaka - I've found morality". Morality starts off as a product of genetic evolution - useful characteristics and compulsions that allow the individual and the species to survive. These characteristics are based upon emotional compulsions - fear of death, for example. When many humans came together then social evolution began - to interact in a way which satisfied their primal urges of avoiding death by seeking protection of the many. So then society starts and we see exactly the same type of evolution - those societies unable to work together die out as other societies that are able to work together wipe them out, or they simply die because they are not able to cope with a drought or a virulent disease. Successful societies create different moral codes which regulate the interaction of individuals within that society, so that it can work together well. This is where religion becomes useful, because it creates a higher arbiter of truth which allows people to claim morality is absolute because it is God's will, rather than the opinion of a bunch of kings and priests. So the morality which is governed by our primal urges and the morality that was originally a product of that, social morality, interact in complex ways. Even though we should imagine that base morality is the strongest driving force, we know that social compulsions can override it, almost certainly by appealing to other parts of base morality. It is in this way that people repress base urges such as lust or aggression - out of fear that they will be punished or lose the protection of their society (which is why exile was such a popular punishment in the early days).

Not only this but, of course, different cultures will have evolved different sets of social morality (and sometimes even base morality) depending on the evolutionary pressures there - geography, proximity to other civilisations, water, food etcetera. Obviously it gets far more complicated than this as the social evolution of different cultures clash, as civilisations are destroyed and the moral code of the survivors fragmented or subsumed by which ever culture they then go to. And, of course, there are those who are born without certain base moral characteristics - lack of fear, lack of compassion. On that last note we should not aim to take such a wholly dismal view of the base human that they would rape and murder without social morality. It is because humans are naturally self-interested that they are compassionate etcetera because this increases their survival capacity because it allows them to work together.