USA - The United States has 5% of the world's population

[ewok_poacher]

The United States has among the highest incarceration rates in the world. More people are behind bars in the United States than any other country. As of 2006, a record 7 million people were behind bars, on probation or on parole. Of the total, 2.2 million were incarcerated. The People's Republic of China ranks second with 1.5 million, even though China has many times more inhabitants than the US. The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.

Some feel the high levels of incarceration is because of the long sentences mandated under American law, especially for nonviolent crimes like theft and drug possession. Some also feel that repeat offenders are not properly handled and that more focus should be on rehabilitation, and that shorter sentences would even reduce the criminal culture in general and especially reduce re-arrest rates for first-time convicts. A survey showed that among the nearly 300,000 prisoners released, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years, and 51.8% were back in prison. However, the study found no evidence that spending more time in prison raises the recidivism rate, and found that those serving the longest time, 61 months or more, had a significantly lower re-arrest rate (54.2%) than every other category of prisoner. This is most likely explained by the older average age of those released with the longest sentences, and the study shows a strong negative correlation between recidivism and age of release.
Some have criticized the United States for having a high amount of non-violent and victimless offenders incarcerated;half of all persons incarcerated under state jurisdiction are for non-violent offences, and 20% are incarcerated for drug offences."Human Rights Watch believes the extraordinary rate of incarceration in the United States wreaks havoc on individuals, families and communities, and saps the strength of the nation as a whole.
The United States spends an estimated $60 billion each year on corrections. The population of inmates housed in prisons and jails in the United States exceeds 2 million, with the per capita incarceration population higher than that officially reported by any other country. Because of its size and influence, the U.S. prison industry is often referred to as the prison-industrial complex. Criminal justice policy in the United States has also been criticized for the disproportionate representation of African Americans and other minorities.


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/12/01/usdom14728.htm

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1209-01.htm

http://www.reuters.com/article/domes...37053120070627

http://www.workers.org/2006/us/prisoners-0831/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1242368.stm

I am a little sickened by the United states treatment of it's population.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice compilation of information, good use of incorporating the links into the text.

[Felonious Skunk]

5% of the world's population.

95% of the world's stupidity.

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more unsubstanciated opinions

[trptamene]

Originally Posted by Felonious Skunk

5% of the world's population.

95% of the world's stupidity.

Thoroughly agreed.
We must be pretty lazy too as we do little to nothing about fixing the problems our government has created.

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more unsubstanciated opinions

[augentier]

Not so much lazy..there are plenty of people disappointed in our pathetic rulers..but that's just it - they RULE us..which comes back to our skewed views of "freedom" these days..we aren't truly free in the ways our government would like the rest of the world to envy because there's too much power..and if you dont have power (aka: money) you don't mean shit. i honestly dont think there would be a chance in hell of people raising a revolution on our goverment ..we'd either be ignored like in the past or destroyed.

[Police Officer]

Originally Posted by ewok_poacher

1. The United States has among the highest incarceration rates in the world. More people are behind bars in the United States than any other country. As of 2006, a record 7 million people were behind bars, on probation or on parole. Of the total, 2.2 million were incarcerated. The People's Republic of China ranks second with 1.5 million, even though China has many times more inhabitants than the US.

2. Some feel the high levels of incarceration is because of the long sentences mandated under American law, especially for nonviolent crimes like theft and drug possession. Some also feel that repeat offenders are not properly handled and that more focus should be on rehabilitation, and that shorter sentences would even reduce the criminal culture in general and especially reduce re-arrest rates for first-time convicts.

1. Long sentences are most often given to career criminals. Mandatory sentencing guidelines are in place for a reason. Can anyone list the crimes for which there are mandatory sentences? I'm not sure why you put "theft and drug possession" on that link. I would suggest that if you read this post then you click on the link. It makes my argument for me. We're not talking about misdemeanor shoplifting here, we're talking about serious criminals who habitually commit felonies. Here is a quote from the like that you grossly mislabeled:

"The stated rationale for these laws is that the automatic and lengthy imprisonment of individuals who commit three or more felonies is justified on the basis that recidivists are incorrigible and chronically criminal, and must be imprisoned as a matter of public safety."

2. If you believe that first time offenders are getting locked up, then you are naive. Trust me, I arrest the same goons over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and...

These guys are in and out of jail (not prison) for years and years before they do any time in prison. A guy I just testified on stole 12 cars, burglarized who knows how many homes, and held a family at gun point. Why? He told the judge he was doing all of this to support a meth habit. How much time did he get you ask? 4 years in prison. What’s that actually mean? I'll be seeing him again in probably 18 months. Unless we're talking about something like murder or what most States classify as a Class A Felony, first time offenders don’t go to prison. What did he learn? He can run amuck for 10 years, victimize his WHOLE community, and then only spend 18 months in camp.

And here’s something to think about, according to wikipedia, China's population is 1,321,851,888 (July 2007 est.). If they only have 1.5 million in prison then I think they are doing pretty good. And keep in mind that they incarcerate for some crazy shit. Why do you think that they have so few in prison? Because the Chinese know that the Chinese Gov't dosent fuck around. (No, I'm not saying that I agree with China's communist system. The above is just food for thought.)

The recidivism rate of the US is so high because criminals know it takes an act of God to get someone put in prison.

Also keep in mind that the VAST MAJORITY of all prison sentences are the results of plea agreements. If someone is serving two years for drug possession I guarantee that the plea agreement went something like this:

Guilty: Possession of a Controlled Substance

Charges Dismissed: Felony Assault, Carjacking, ADW, Possession with the Intent to Distribute


Dont automatically believe something because some Human Rights blah blah blah says that it's true. Look it up for yourself. Do research. Become informed. Verify what you are reading is accurate. A vast majority of writen text is written in persuasive manner.

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	Even though I disagree with most of what you say, I like the way your present your thoughts.
	have a point or 3. your a good man

[Police Officer]

I made this a separate post becuase I didnt want this question to get missed.

Who here has been the victim of a violent crime? Who here has a family member who has been the victim of a violent crime? Who here has had property valued in excess of $10,000 stolen from them?

What happened to the offender? Were you satisfied?

[trptamene]

I have never been a victim of a violent crime.
My step-brother was murdered and they never caught the guy.
My brother was robbed at gunpoint and they never caught the 3 guys.
We were robbed one time on vacation and had electronics and other various items stolen (probably closer to ~$7000)...they never caught the robbers

The criminals that perpetrated these crimes walked, no i am not satisfied.

Interestingly though, one time I was riding with a joint and got pulled over, arrested and charged with possesion (this is a matter of public record, so I have already been incriminated)...they caught me...no, i wasn't charged with Felony Assault, Carjacking, ADW, Possession with the Intent to Distribute.

Maybe if law enforcement would spend less time trying to win a war that has no end and more time catching criminals my step-brothers murderer would be behind bars. maybe

[Police Officer]

Originally Posted by trptamene

I have never been a victim of a violent crime.
My step-brother was murdered and they never caught the guy.
My brother was robbed at gunpoint and they never caught the 3 guys.
We were robbed one time on vacation and had electronics and other various items stolen (probably closer to ~$7000)...they never caught the robbers

The criminals that perpetrated these crimes walked, no i am not satisfied.

Interestingly though, one time I was riding with a joint and got pulled over, arrested and charged with possesion (this is a matter of public record, so I have already been incriminated)...they caught me...no, i wasn't charged with Felony Assault, Carjacking, ADW, Possession with the Intent to Distribute.

Maybe if law enforcement would spend less time trying to win a war that has no end and more time catching criminals my step-brothers murderer would be behind bars. maybe

I am truly sorry to hear about your brother. Remember that there is no statute of limitations on most types of murder. Please remember to call the department that is working the case if you ever get any tips/leads/information that could help. People on the street will always hear things that the Police won't.

Those violent criminals that you talk about are the types of people who are in prisons. I can guarantee that you maybe got a fine, time served (if you went to the jail), and like 2 years probation. You are not the "demographics" of the "three strikes" law.

Who is you ask? Heres a link (pls don't delete this as its not a link to a gov site, it's a link to a .org site) http://www.threestrikes.org/

[Felonious Skunk]

PO, I for one would like to see drugs decriminalized so that you could spend your time tracking down thieves and murderers like those mentioned above rather than peaceful plant-smokers.

On a purely practical level, I think removing the criminality from drug use would really make the world a nicer place to be in.

[grandbaby]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

China's population is 1,321,851,888 (July 2007 est.). If they only have 1.5 million in prison then I think they are doing pretty good. And keep in mind that they incarcerate for some crazy shit. Why do you think that they have so few in prison? Because the Chinese know that the Chinese Gov't dosent fuck around.

Are you trying to say that the U.S. has such a high prison population because your governments are not tough enough on crime?

(I'm looking for a KOO KOO emoticon but can't find one.)

Please then explain the rest of the world: we are not drowning in criminals and fearing for our lives (in most places, anyhow) but neither do we feel the need to put a huge percentage of our population in prison. Whassup with that?

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

And here’s something to think about, according to wikipedia, China's population is 1,321,851,888 (July 2007 est.). If they only have 1.5 million in prison then I think they are doing pretty good. And keep in mind that they incarcerate for some crazy shit. Why do you think that they have so few in prison? Because the Chinese know that the Chinese Gov't dosent fuck around. (No, I'm not saying that I agree with China's communist system. The above is just food for thought.)

The reason China doesn't have that many prisoners when you look at it's population is two fold - executions are done quickly with comparativley little time between sentancing and the final execution. Execution is a punishment for far far more crimes than even in the hang 'em and flog debacle that is North America. And, of course, corruption is endemic and accepted as a part of the chinese system. Open drug use there is completely possible, so long as you do it in a rural area and you make sure you tip the policeman if he walks past. In most rural areas its rare for a crime to even be reported (unless it's something like murder etc). It is slightly different in Beijing and other major cities, but in general there is far more oportunity to buy your way out - especialy if you happen to be white, as the chinese government is very concerned about it's international perception and human rights record and incdents involving whites hit international news in a negative fashion. So the smaller prison population is not at all due to the fact that the Chinese people fear committing crimes - thier crime incidence is estimated to be massive, it's that lots of those crimes go unreported and detected crimes are dealt with swifter and more finaly so there isn't much time to stay in prison. You have to remember this is the country that executes people by shooting them and then sends thier families the bill for the bullet. The following maxim is really true - the harsher and more stringent the laws the greater the incidence of crime - not because harsh laws cause crime but because of the set of socio-economic policies that are introduced by governments that favour harsh sentances. Drugs offences encourage an active dissrespect of the law - it lowers the dignity of the system to have an unenforcable law that over 30% of people think is idiotic (over 50% in the UK want cannabis to be legalised). Laws that are overly harsh and appear stupid create an unintergrated criminal underclass who activley revile the law and rebel against it. Sensible and well thought out laws try and incorporate everyone into the social structure, whilst also encouraging people not to commit criminal acts. Finaly I was listening to a radio 4 documentary a couple of weeks ago in which they asked criminals whether they had considered the length of thier punishment as being a factor that would have made them think twice about commiting the crime. 90% said they hadn't even considered it.

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good read

[Felonious Skunk]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

...And here’s something to think about, according to wikipedia, China's population is 1,321,851,888 (July 2007 est.). If they only have 1.5 million in prison then I think they are doing pretty good. And keep in mind that they incarcerate for some crazy shit. Why do you think that they have so few in prison? Because the Chinese know that the Chinese Gov't dosent fuck around. (No, I'm not saying that I agree with China's communist system. The above is just food for thought)...

It's hard to say why this is, but I would wager that it probably goes way beyond politics and law enforcement. Chinese culture is the product of a long history of diverse influences, not the least being Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism.

It's quite possible that philosophies expounded by Eastern religions are more effective at imparting a sense of personal responsibility to adherents than are those in the West. It could be that the Chinese know that karma doesn't fuck around...

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by Felonious Skunk

It's hard to say why this is, but I would wager that it probably goes way beyond politics and law enforcement. Chinese culture is the product of a long history of diverse influences, not the least being Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism.

It's quite possible that philosophies expounded by Eastern religions are more effective at imparting a sense of personal responsibility to adherents than are those in the West. It could be that the Chinese know that karma doesn't fuck around...

Crime incidence is massive, as I said. The eastern religions have very little to do with it - the crime rate is comparative to that of the USA by percentage of the population. It's just the prison figures that are lower for the reasons I outlined. The majority of the Chinese are non-religious and don't even think that much about it. Some religions are still banned in China, and there are still very few people of religious inclination. In all of my experience with China and the chinese people none of them seemed to spare a thought about it - although it's difficult to ask as it's illegal for foriegners to preach about religion and you always run the risk of doing some illegal when you discuss matters that the government would prefer you not to.

[Bananas293]

Interesting thread!

One thing which has not really been answered is WHY the prisons are so full.

So is the prison population of the US so plentiful because;

a.-the country is rife with crime
b.-the incarceration system is unbalanced(sml crimes doing long times)
c.-the prisons are not a deterrent
d.-the social model for reforming criminals is inadequate
e.-of over efficient policing and unrealistically strict legislations
f.- complete dis-respect for the law and government by its citizens
g.-of other reasons (...please fill...)

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by Bananas293

Interesting thread!

One thing which has not really been answered is WHY the prisons are so full.

So is the prison population of the US so plentiful because;

a.-the country is rife with crime
b.-the incarceration system is unbalanced(sml crimes doing long times)
c.-the prisons are not a deterrent
d.-the social model for reforming criminals is inadequate
e.-of over efficient policing and unrealistically strict legislations
f.- complete dis-respect for the law and government by its citizens
g.-of other reasons (...please fill...)

All of those options have some truth in them. Certainly in some circles the law is reviled as a method of oppression with institutional racism at it's heart (f) - this attitude is probably caused by a perception that the law is unjust (e) and the punishments meated out overly strict (b), which leads to the situation in which a criminal conviction is held to be a badge of honnor (c) thus causing increased crime rates (a), all of this conspires together to create a system that is ineffective at reforming criminals (d) - as the man from LEAP says 'Whilst you can get over an addiction you never recover from a conviction."

Really in response to criminality you have two ways of going about it that can achieve results. The way that many countries go about it is to be excessively harsh - this is the way America, Saudi Arabia and other states which are run by religious fundementalists do it. To be succesful with this method you have to remove civil liberties and rights that impeed police progress and work - America is steadliy getting rid of those at the moment. You need to create a police state for this sort of system to be effective, where the police can controll everything. If the police arn't in controll then you leave isolated and rebellious ellements and radicalise thier allready anti-police stance. This forum is a great example of that - the level of hatred, misstrust and cynicism about the police and legislators in general would not be anywhere near the same if our views and actions were not unfairly descriminated against. Because we are; many more people are radicalised against the police.

The second way of going about things is the softly softly approach, where we look at reform rather than punishment and deterents. There is a greater focus on forgivness and understanding why the individual committed the crime. These approaches work in lowering crime rates but they leave victims of crime feeling that the softer and lighter punishemnt were unjust and reparations were not made. The second system has been demonstrated to lower crime (rather than increasing it as right wingers argue) but it is very hard to accept because there is no focus on punishment. It goes against human nature not to feel agressive towards those who wronged them. Either we do one of those things or we just accept crime levels as they are.

[Bananas293]

Thank you FuBai for a very insightful response to my question.

[Nagognog2]

Mandatory-Minimum sentencing for drug offenders is the main reason. The judges (and many complain) hand's are tied in such matters. Hence non-violent persons are tossed in prison, while the more dangerous criminals walk. No room at the inn.

[Police Officer]

Originally Posted by grandbaby

Are you trying to say that the U.S. has such a high prison population because your governments are not tough enough on crime?

Yes.

Originally Posted by FuBai

The reason China doesn't have that many prisoners when you look at it's population is two fold - executions are done quickly with comparativley little time between sentancing and the final execution. Execution is a punishment for far far more crimes than even in the hang 'em and flog debacle that is North America.

Seriously, they dont fuck around. Think about this. For those of you that have sold drugs in the US, would you consider going to China and selling drugs? Rhetorical question, of course.

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

Mandatory-Minimum sentencing for drug offenders is the main reason. The judges (and many complain) hand's are tied in such matters. Hence non-violent persons are tossed in prison, while the more dangerous criminals walk. No room at the inn.

Mandatory sentencing guidelines are not as far reaching as you might believe. I would suggest looking up what laws have mandatory sentencing guidelines. And I would imagine they only apply when someone rolls the dice and takes the case to a jury. If you plea then I would imagine that you could get out of that situation.

[grandbaby]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

Yes.

Think about this carefully now: you're seriously saying that if the US were tougher on crime, then you would have fewer people in prison?

[Police Officer]

Originally Posted by grandbaby

Think about this carefully now: you're seriously saying that if the US were tougher on crime, then you would have fewer people in prison?

Uh, yes. I've thought about it seriously. Thats exactly what I'm saying.

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

Uh, yes. I've thought about it seriously. Thats exactly what I'm saying.

I hate to say this PO, but your posts tend not to get stuck into the underlying philosophical, moral and ethical understanding and arguments that belie most of the discussion on this forum especially (drug policy reform). Why do you think that? Why do you think that he is wrong? What are your arguments, counter arguments - where are the thrusts and parries of debate? I would love to see an alternative voice on these forums that really gets stuck into the issues and provides us with a counterbalance, but at the moment you're just not doing that - your points are not fleshed out, they are rarely in depth - I want to say I'm not criticising you, but I am, I just want it to be constructive. Please, feel free to be the voice of the other side - that's what this forum really needs, apart from some part of actual political action branch, it needs dissenting voices and it needs real and tough argument about how we are to deal with drugs. Let's thrash this out, I'm open to debate - everyone on this forum should be, else they're hypocrites. I'm open to new ideas, I want them. Be that person, get stuck in, at the moment you are just too standoffish.

[Nagognog2]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

Mandatory sentencing guidelines are not as far reaching as you might believe. I would suggest looking up what laws have mandatory sentencing guidelines. And I would imagine they only apply when someone rolls the dice and takes the case to a jury. If you plea then I would imagine that you could get out of that situation.

Interesting way to look at it. Now what happens if you are not guilty as charged? Is it still "rolling the dice" to take the case to a jury? Would pleading a nolo before a judge under those circumstances not be tantamount to commiting perjury? I would say that it is.

[Police Officer]

Well, I dont necessarily try to be vague or matter of fact if thats what you're saying. Point taken, and I'll try to elaborate more often.

If you have ever been involved in the criminal justice system then you know a couple things. Things like: If you're on probation and you get arrested (which is a violation of your probation), then odds are that you'll just get more probation. Make sense? Sure it dosent. You really have to do some bad shit to get anything more than probation and a small fine. Maybe if the local Law Enforcement and Prosecutor are both sick of a persons shit then they will make it a point to do something. But thats kinda rare.

Now, take China for example. China has a reputation for treating criminals like criminals. When you get arrested in China you know that you are going to pay the piper. Maybe if a person were to know that they would get in trouble for breaking the law, then they wouldnt break the law.

I'm not saying I support China and all.

[Police Officer]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

Interesting way to look at it. Now what happens if you are not guilty as charged? Is it still "rolling the dice" to take the case to a jury? Would pleading a nolo before a judge under those circumstances not be tantamount to commiting perjury? I would say that it is.

You know how many people in prison are guilty? None. Ask 'em, they'll tell ya.

If I am guilty of a heinous crime and obvisouly guilty beyond reasonable doubt by a preponderance of the evidence and I roll the dice by taking it to a jury, well I would expect to do time (maybe). If you want to talk about any specific mandatory sentencing guidelines I would be more than happy to. California has the three strikes law, that might be a place to begin. But make sure that you check out the website that I linked in an above post.

Violent and serious felonies according to California statutes:

Violent felonies

• Murder or manslaughter.
• Mayhem.
• Rape by force, violence, duress, menace or fear of immediate bodily injury on the victim or another person.
• Oral copulation by force, violence, duress, menace or fear of immediate bodily injury on the victim or another person.
• Lewd act on a child.
• Any felony punishable by death or life sentence.
• Any felony resulting in great bodily injury or in which a firearm was used.
• Robbery of an inhabited dwelling, vessel or trailer coach in which a deadly or dangerous weapon was used.
• Arson that causes great bodily injury.
• Penetration by a foreign object.
• Attempted murder.
• Explosion with intent to commit murder.
• Out-of-state kidnapping transported to California.
• Continuous sexual abuse of a child.

Serious felonies

• Murder or involuntary manslaughter.
• Mayhem.
• Sodomy by force, violence, duress, menace or fear of immediate bodily injury on the victim or another person.
• Oral copulation by force, violence, duress, menace or fear of immediate bodily injury on the victim or another person.
• Lewd or lascivious act on a child under the age of 14 years.
• Any felony pubishable by death or imprisonment for life.
• Any other felony in which the defendant personally inflicts great bodily injury on any person or personally uses a firearm.
• Attempted murder.
• Assault with intent to commit rape or robbery.
• Assault with a deadly weapon or instrument on a peace officer.
• Assault by a life prisoner on a non-inmate.
• Assault with a deadly weapon by an inmate.
• Arson.
• Exploding a destructive device or any explosive with intent to injure.
• Exploding a destructive device or any explosive causing great bodily injury or mayhem.
• Exploding a destructive device or any explosive with intent to murder.
• Burglary of an inhabited dwelling, house or trailer coach as defined by the Vehicle Code or inhabited portion of any other building.
• Robbery or bank robbery.
• Kidnapping.
• Holding of a hostage by a person confined in a state prison.
• Attempt to commit a felony punishable by death or life imprisonment.
• Any felony in which the defendant personally used a dangerous or deadly weapon selling, furnishing, administering, giving or offering to sell, furnish administer or give to a minor, heroin, cocaine, phencyclidine (PCP), a methamphetamine-related drug, or a presursor of mehtamphetamine.
• Any violation of subdivision (a) of Section 289 where the act is accomplished against the victim's will by force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury on the victim or another person.
• Grand theft involving a firearm.
• Any attempt to commit a crime listed in this subdivision other than an assault.
• Continuous sexual abuse of a child.

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by Police Officer

Well, I dont necessarily try to be vague or matter of fact if thats what you're saying. Point taken, and I'll try to elaborate more often.

If you have ever been involved in the criminal justice system then you know a couple things. Things like: If you're on probation and you get arrested (which is a violation of your probation), then odds are that you'll just get more probation. Make sense? Sure it dosent. You really have to do some bad shit to get anything more than probation and a small fine. Maybe if the local Law Enforcement and Prosecutor are both sick of a persons shit then they will make it a point to do something. But thats kinda rare.

Now, take China for example. China has a reputation for treating criminals like criminals. When you get arrested in China you know that you are going to pay the piper. Maybe if a person were to know that they would get in trouble for breaking the law, then they wouldnt break the law.

I'm not saying I support China and all.

Well I've already commented on china's statistics and why those are the case - and I've given my own personal experience as a person that has spent some time in China, that has learned some of the language and become acquainted with the way they work things. What I would love is if you, say, got some friends on this forum, start telling us why, precisely, we are talking crap. Reign us in on our anti-police, anti-government views. Be the voice of the 'silent majority'. Let's get to grips with why we are a minority view, how we can get our message across, why we haven't been successful so far, get into some serious debate. We've dealt with China, let's talk about why I'm wrong in my assessment of it, why it isn't just corruption and swift execution, why drugs are still freely available in China, why they are producing some of the purest Methamphetamine in the world for sale in the US. Get stuck in. I want prohibitionists on every forum. Let's force a serious debate, rather than just agonising over which legalisation programme we should choose. China has the harshest laws and still some of the most serious problems with drugs - why? Give us the PO angle, tell us why, and lets start to get stuck into the problems of legalisation, why it isn't better than the misguided and ineffectual system we are facing at the moment - I admit I haven't been here for a long time, but this is the impression I'm getting, warranted or not, than that police just dodge behind superficial arguments and don't get to the heart of the issue.