Purity - Potency of S- Ketamine

[rxbandit]

My cat found some S- ketamine in her meandering. according to wikipedia,

" The more active enantiomer, S-Ketamine, is also available for medical use under the brand name Ketanest S.[4]"

His cat also found a trip report on erowid reporting it to be twice as potent then going on to say 75 mg's would be equal to 100 mg's of normal ketamine. For some reason swims cat thinks this doesnt not sound like a credible source at all.

So, for all you fine folks. What is the potency of S- ketamine. Also is it safer, different in effects/ any other positives?

thanks in advance.

[rxbandit]

So i found the answer to my question and thought I'd share my findings;

From the racemate to the eutomer: (S)-ketamine.
Renaissance of a substance?
by
Adams HA, Werner C.
Zentrum Anasthesiologie-Anasthesiologie I,
Medizinische Hannover.
Anaesthesist. 1997 Dec;46(12):1026-42.

ABSTRACT

The pharmacological profile of ketamine: Until recently, clinically available ketamine was a racemic mixture containing equal amounts of two enantiomers, (S)- and (R)-ketamine. The pharmacological profile of racemic ketamine is characterized by the so called dissociative anesthetic state and profound sympathomimetic properties. Among the different sites of action, N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA)-receptor antagonism is considered to be the most important neuropharmacological mechanism of ketamine. Effects on opiate receptors, monoaminergic and cholinergic transmitters, and local anesthetic effects are obvious as well. Following intravenous administration, a rapid onset of action is seen within 1 min, lasting for about 10 min. The anaesthetic state is terminated due to redistribution, followed by hepatic and renal elimination with a half-life period of 2-3 h. For alternative administration, the intramuscular and oral route is also appropriate. The most important adverse effects are hallucinations and excessive increases in blood pressure and heart rate. These reactions can be attenuated or avoided by combining of ketamine with sedative or hypnotic drugs like midazolam and/or propofol. During controlled ventilation, increases in intracranial pressure are unlikely to occur. The special pharmacological profile of (S)-ketamine: In general, the pharmacological properties of (S)-ketamine are comparable to the racemic compound. On the different sites of action, qualitatively comparable effects were found, but significant quantitative differences also became obvious. When compared with (R)-ketamine and the racmic mixture, the analgesic and anesthetic potency of (S)-ketamine is threefold or twofold higher. Thus, a 50% reduction of dosage is possible to achieve comparable clinical results. Because of the faster elimination of (S)-ketamine, better control of anesthesia will be provided. In summary, the pharmacokinetic improvements of (S)-ketamine are characterized by a reduced drug load, along with more rapid recovery. The clinical use of (S)-ketamine: The clinical use of (S)-ketamine depends on its analgesic and sympathomimetic properties, whereas the anaesthetic potency remains in the background. In clinical anesthesiology, (S)-ketamine, especially in combination with midazolam and/or propofol, can be used for short procedures with preserved spontaneous ventilation, for induction of anesthesia in patients with shock or asthmatic disorders, and for induction and maintenance of anesthesia in caesarean sections. Additional indications are repeated anesthesia, for example, in burn patients, analgesia during delivery and diagnostic procedures and intramuscular administration in uncooperative patients. The value of (S)-ketamine as an analgesic component for total intravenous anesthesia has not been defined yet. In comparison with opioides, the advantages are related to improved hemodynamic stability and reduced postoperative respiratory depression. When (S)-ketamine, especially in combination with midazolam, is used for analgosedation in intensive care medicine, a reduction of exogenous catecholamine demand can be expected. Moreover, the effects on intestinal motility are superior to opioids. In combination with midazolam and propofol, excellent control of analgosedation was found, making both combinations suitable for situations in which repeated neurological assessment of patients is necessary. In emergency and disaster medicine, (S)-ketamine is of outstanding importance because of its minimal logistic requirements, the chance for intramuscular administration and the broad range of use for analgesia, anaesthesia and analgosedation as well. Further perspectives of (S)-ketamine may be the treatment of chronic pain and the assumed neuroprotective action of the substance.

Reputation Comments on this post:

glad you found what you were looking for, thanks for sharing ;)

[enquirewithin]

Parke-Davis are now producing S (+) Ketamine as an anesthetic in Germany, and its use beyond Germany seems certain. S(+)ketamine is 2-4 times more potent in producing loss of consciousness and analgesia than the equal mixture of S(+)ketamine and R(-)ketamine sold as Ketalar and Ketaset, and the recovery time is faster at equivalent doses (Doenicke et al., 1992).

---"Ketamine - Near Death and Near Birth Experiences," Dr. Karl Jansen MB.ChB., M.Med.Sci, D. Phil (Oxon), MRCPsych, 1998.

There must be truth in this. SWIM tells me that he has had brands of ketamine which claim to be S(+) and they have appeared to be more psychedelic than others. But ketamine is drug whose effects vary hugely from one time to another anyway (strength depending upon, for example, if you have eaten that day).

[trip.more]

Hi RX

Well for swim the there is a difference, with the S(+) isomer only 80mg is needed to achieve a khole, while with racemic 130mg-140mg is needed (swim weighs in at 135lb).Comes on a bit quicker then racemic also.Besides that it's really not all that different effects wise if someone asks swim.

Reputation Comments on this post:

thankyou for your opinion.

[smersh]

Originally Posted by lancelot

In cali, it's mainly vet Ketaset brand from mexico that is used. has anyone used human grade S-isomer Aneket?

I know this is an old post, but SWIM thought it would be good information to have. Having tried quite a number of different brands of K, SWIM feels that Aneket is his favorite.

At higher doses, it is far more psychedelic than any other brand he's tried.

[Paracelsus]

Post moved to 'fresher' thread on the same topic.

[dutch-marshal]

what SWIM heard is that you need smaller doses and it's allot more potent then the normal ketamine

[smersh]

Originally Posted by dutch-marshal

what SWIM heard is that you need smaller doses and it's allot more potent then the normal ketamine

That's been SWIM's experience. But the thing that's been most striking is the clarity of the trips. Even at higher doses, there seemed to be, for lack of a better word, STRUCTURE to visions and thoughts.

With Aneket, it was as though one has an actual glimpse of internal mechanisms.

Reputation Comments on this post:

rare information is always valuable. thanks

[rxbandit]

swim recently tried 60 mg's of S-ketamine to see the nature of this sterioisomer. Swim was fairly impressed. He took 2 bumps of 30 mg's. Swim immediately felt his body numb after only a few minutes with just 30 mg's. It was very clean and comfortable with no negative side effects. Swim will try for a K-hole on this material in a week or so and let everyone know how the dosage compares to regular ketamine.

[smersh]

SWIM found a nice supplier of Aneket after nearly a year of using lesser types. He admits that using S-Ketamine again is fantastic.

Less needed.

Clearer, more lucid AND psychedelic visuals. It truly feels like he's witnessing the inner mechanics of thought.

Faster (or, at the very least, more pleasant) recovery.

[milly-aaiightbois]

Makes sense I suppose, definetely some batches of pure K are more effective than others.

[rxbandit]

swim found last night that 165 mg's insufflated in 3 rounds of lines gave a nice vivid K-hole. The lines were spaced out over about 30 minutes each, so it can be assumed that a bit lower of a dose if taken all at once could produce a K-hole as well. Swim would guess around 140 mg's all at once could be sufficient.

The experience was clear and vivid and the comedown fairly gentle, with a bit of the hang over of pleasant K effects.

swim will outline the trip in another S-ketamine experience report thread.

[PhishinHole234]

is it at all possible to tell the difference between S and R by looking at it?
SWIM has found Ket three different times in his life and the most recent
kind of seemed stronger than the other two. Also, he experiences nose
bleeds lasting at least an hour everyday for days after an experience. Is
S more likely to cause nose bleeds? cuz he didn't get them even after two
straight days of intake of the first batch.

[Paracelsus]

is it at all possible to tell the difference between S and R by looking at it?

Not at all, unfortunately.

SWIM has found Ket three different times in his life and the most recent
kind of seemed stronger than the other two.

If it was powder purchased on the street, the previous versions could've been cut to a lower concentration. If bottles of pharmaceutical ketamine were used, the label will reveal if it is (S)-ketamine or not.

[adzket]

swim never knows which type of k they get as buy it in large rose water bottels. though more recently have noticed does not give as much psycadelic afect or disaction? which would swiy's say is more disactive? the + or - isomer? is there a way to tell the diffirence if swim does not have the origanal container any one know what is normaly avalible in uk?

[chillinwill]

I know this might not answer your question but here's some info from wikipedia

Ketamine is racemic, and its R and S stereoisomers have different binding affinities: (S)-ketamine has about four times greater affinity for the PCP site of the NMDA receptor than does (R)-ketamine (in guinea pig brain).[3] (S)-ketamine seems to induce drowsiness more strongly than the (R) enantiomer; it is probable that (R)-ketamine is the stronger sigma agonist and so this enantiomer is likely to be responsible for the lowering of the seizure threshold that can occur with ketamine.[3] Since (S)-ketamine has greater analgesic effects and less hallucinogenic side effects than (R)-ketamine, the pure (S) enantiomer is sometimes preferred to the racemic mix for use in medical procedures, especially when lower doses are used for minor surgical procedures where the patient remains conscious during the operation.

[adzket]

I know this might not answer your question but here's some info from wikipedia


Quote:
Ketamine is racemic, and its R and S stereoisomers have different binding affinities: (S)-ketamine has about four times greater affinity for the PCP site of the NMDA receptor than does (R)-ketamine (in guinea pig brain).[3] (S)-ketamine seems to induce drowsiness more strongly than the (R) enantiomer; it is probable that (R)-ketamine is the stronger sigma agonist and so this enantiomer is likely to be responsible for the lowering of the seizure threshold that can occur with ketamine.[3] Since (S)-ketamine has greater analgesic effects and less hallucinogenic side effects than (R)-ketamine, the pure (S) enantiomer is sometimes preferred to the racemic mix for use in medical procedures, especially when lower doses are used for minor surgical procedures where the patient remains conscious during the operation

cheers thats cool but swim not very good with chemistry so what would be the diffirence with s and r and + or - though sounds r- is one swim would want but swim does not have a chosie of what to get cause like said above just omes in plastic bottels after coming to uk via india knomaly as it is not avalible otc in any way in uk any more.

[enquirewithin]

Since (S)-ketamine has greater analgesic effects and less hallucinogenic side effects than (R)-ketamine....

Don't take Wikepedia too seriously-- it can be dited by anyone (the drug companies actually edit the entries). The intention of the drug manufacturers was to produce a stronger anesthetic without he hallucinogenic effects which produce unwanted 'emergence symptoms', but that's not quite how it worked out.

[Desertfox]

Originally Posted by Paracelsus

Not at all, unfortunately.

Well if the Ket was crystalized very carefully and they were large enough, SWIM could grab a magnifying glass and separate the crystals by hand according to which direction they crystallized(may be difficult to discern). To tell which one is S- or R- simply try the same dosage from each pile separately and see which one is more powerful.

This is how enantiomers were first discovered when crystals were appearing on the side of wine barrels. Some dude in the late 1800's noticed that half of the crystals were mirror images of the other crystals. so he took a magnifying glass and some tweazers... and discovered enantiomers.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good info