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Beta-Ketones Mephedrone, Methylone, Butylone, Methedrone, Ethcathinone, 3-fluoroMethCathinone (3FMC), Methylenedioxypyrovalerone (MDPV)

 
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  #1  
Old 03-09-2007, 02:40
cadillac555 cadillac555 is offline
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bk-MDA (3,4-methylenedioxycathinone)

Swim would like to propose a question. Would

3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ??? )
compare with
3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-METHCATHINONE ( METHYLONE )

IN THE SAME WAY

3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-AMPHETAMINE ( MDA )
compares with
3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-METHAMPHETAMINE ( MDMA )


Maybe this could be the a way to add some serotonin function to the "methylone" type experience, and possibly add some more of the positive MDMA-like qualities to the experience;
as with amphetamines, MDA is more psychedelic than MDMA, a property that is usually the result of higher serotonin levels.

Could swim be on to something here ???

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interesting topic
Good question
  #2  
Old 03-09-2007, 02:53
enquirewithin enquirewithin is offline
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Re: 3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ?? ) instead of Methylone ( MDMC )

That would be bk-MDA. It would be interesting to give that to some lab rats. It must have been made at sometime.

There would be a correspondence-- probably less potent than MDA. Quite likely a pleasant stimulant.
  #3  
Old 03-09-2007, 04:51
cadillac555 cadillac555 is offline
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Re: 3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ?? ) instead of Methylone ( MDMC )

What would be the correct formula for it ( swim is going to ask some of his suppliers if they can get it
  #4  
Old 03-09-2007, 06:00
enquirewithin enquirewithin is offline
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Re: 3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ?? ) instead of Methylone ( MDMC )

It seems that a whole series of MDCATH or bk-MDA homologues have been synthesized, if I understand correctly. See this PDF.
  #5  
Old 03-09-2007, 11:52
Broshious Broshious is offline
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Re: 3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ?? ) instead of Methylone ( MDMC )

SWIM remembers reading that just like MDMA is partially metabolized into MDA, MDMCAT is partially metabolized into MDCAT. Let us know if you have any luck.
  #6  
Old 03-09-2007, 13:43
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Re: 3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ?? ) instead of Methylone ( MDMC )

From what swim understands it degrades rapidly so it's not suitable to distribute.MDMC is already used for 3,4-ethylenedioxy-n-methylamphetamine

Last edited by trip.more; 03-09-2007 at 14:00.
  #7  
Old 03-09-2007, 16:36
Broshious Broshious is offline
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Re: 3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ?? ) instead of Methylone ( MDMC )

Quote:
Originally Posted by trip.more View Post
From what swim understands it degrades rapidly so it's not suitable to distribute.MDMC is already used for 3,4-ethylenedioxy-n-methylamphetamine
In the paper enquirewithin posted, they mention MDCAT being a possible drug of abuse. I don't believe they mention it degrading anywhere in there.
  #8  
Old 04-09-2007, 19:29
cadillac555 cadillac555 is offline
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Re: 3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ?? ) instead of Methylone ( MDMC )

Yes Swim only remembers reading the degradation of cathinone itself, not the bk-MDA or similar analogs.
Is this on the research chem market anywhere ??? It seems SWIMS suppliers only carry Methylone
He can't wait to find some of this to try on some of his lab rats.
  #9  
Old 04-09-2007, 19:46
FrankenChrist Iridium member FrankenChrist is offline
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Re: 3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ?? ) instead of Methylone ( MDMC )

Since MDMA is a very stable substance and MDCAT supposedly isn't, what causes this difference?

Mind you I don't know too much about chemistry.
  #10  
Old 04-09-2007, 19:53
radiometer radiometer is offline
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Re: 3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ?? ) instead of Methylone ( MDMC )

There are two theories as far as I know.

One is that the beta-keto analogues of primary amines are subject to dimerization. Basically, pairs of molecules will join at the amine end to form a new, inactive, compound. The ketone group of the one molecule gets stuck to the amine of the other, and vice-versa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimer

There is also a second problem with oxidation - see attached image. This is what happens to cathinone:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MDA_and_co.jpg (29.6 KB, 218 views)

Last edited by radiometer; 04-09-2007 at 19:59.
  #11  
Old 04-09-2007, 20:44
Broshious Broshious is offline
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Re: 3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ?? ) instead of Methylone ( MDMC )

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiometer View Post
There are two theories as far as I know.

One is that the beta-keto analogues of primary amines are subject to dimerization. Basically, pairs of molecules will join at the amine end to form a new, inactive, compound. The ketone group of the one molecule gets stuck to the amine of the other, and vice-versa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimer

There is also a second problem with oxidation - see attached image. This is what happens to cathinone:
If either of those theories is true, how rapid would the degredation be? To me it seems like if degradation were a huge problem then the aforementioned research paper would have said something about it.
  #12  
Old 11-10-2007, 00:48
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

Like bk-MDMA is methylone, bk-MDEA is Ethylone and bk-MBDB is butylone. What would be a logical name for bk-MDA?
  #13  
Old 11-10-2007, 01:18
snapper Gold member snapper is offline
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

alone ?

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good post, haha "alone" v.good
  #14  
Old 11-10-2007, 01:19
Nagognog2 Nagognog2 is offline
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

beta-ketone-Methylenedioxyamphetamine ... which can't really exist under that name.
  #15  
Old 11-10-2007, 01:20
trptamene trptamene is offline
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa View Post
Like bk-MDMA is methylone, bk-MDEA is Ethylone and bk-MBDB is butylone. What would be a logical name for bk-MDA?

I dont get the pattern? It's beta-keto whatever right whatever right.

and aren't the -ones (methylone, ethylone, propylone, butylone) specificaclly referring to the oxidized version methylene-dioxy-alkyl-amphetamines)

(bk-MDMA=beta-keto-methylene-dioxy-methyl-amphetamine=methylone, bk-MDEA=beta-keto-methylene-dioxy-ethyl-amphetamine=ethylone, bk-MDPA=beta-keto-methylene-dioxy-propyl-amphetamine=propylone, bk-MDBA=beta-keto-methylene-dioxy-butyl-amphetamine=butylone) ?

Is this right? What is bk-MBDB?

so there for if your "alkyl" group was a proton (bk-MDA) would be protione/protiolone/protylone/protone? What if it was deuterioum deuteriolone?

Maybe instead hydrolone? (for hydrogen)

Last edited by trptamene; 11-10-2007 at 17:03.
  #16  
Old 11-10-2007, 02:19
snapper Gold member snapper is offline
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

If the methyl-, ehtyl-, butyl refers to the N-substitution, the bk-MDA would mean no N-substitution, so "alone" would be most consistent with the existing RC nomenclature, the a prefix referring to no substitution on the nitrogen. Hydrolone or dihydrolone would work. However it does not sound good either.

Maybe a catchy name like "rapture", "bliss", "euphoria" or "explosion" ?

bk-MBDB is butylone. (2-methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butan-1-one)
Propylone does not exist on the RC market (dunno why) and there is no information on it that SWIM knows of.
  #17  
Old 11-10-2007, 02:26
trptamene trptamene is offline
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapper View Post
Propylone does not exist on the RC market (dunno why) and there is no information on it that SWIM knows of.
Does butylone exist? I though alfa just pulled that out of somewhere...

I would expect to have trouble crossing the BBB and thus being inactive or of low-activity.

But I would've thought DET would not be that active orally either.

EDIT:

Oh, I guess so It's on erowid and they call it bk-MBDB, I don't get it?
Oh...this is actualy alpha-ethyl-beta-keto-methylene-dioxy-methamphetamine or beta-keto-2-methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butane where MBDB=2-methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butane..

My conclusion...this is a bad shorthand naming system, but I guess its just part of the history of it all.

Last edited by trptamene; 11-10-2007 at 03:38.
  #18  
Old 11-10-2007, 03:57
enquirewithin enquirewithin is offline
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

"Butylone" as a name for bk-MBDB has gone out of favour as the name was already in use for phenobarbitol. I believe that Shulgin has accepted the bk- prefix for beta ketones.With methylone the name has stuck, however.
  #19  
Old 11-10-2007, 07:04
Nagognog2 Nagognog2 is offline
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

We can always draw up molecular structures of each possible relative of the series - until our eyes pop. Shall we?
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Old 11-10-2007, 18:42
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

Here is a start. Here's the beta-ketones (left) and their "reduced" equivalents (right) for comparison



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thanks for posting the nice molecular structures !
this appears perfectly accurate and is a good contribution
Attached Images
File Type: jpg betaketones-2.jpg (38.7 KB, 134 views)
File Type: jpg reducedbetaketones-2.jpg (31.9 KB, 137 views)

Last edited by Phenoxide; 09-05-2011 at 01:28. Reason: hotlinked images uploaded
  #21  
Old 12-10-2007, 00:24
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

That looks interesting!
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Old 12-10-2007, 09:01
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Re: bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

Quote:
Originally Posted by trptamene View Post
Here is a start:
Great stuff - perhaps this might be even better split off and reposted in its own topic?

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