Drug info - bk-MDA (3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE)

[cadillac555]

Swim would like to propose a question. Would

3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-CATHINONE ( MDC ??? )
compare with
3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-METHCATHINONE ( METHYLONE )

IN THE SAME WAY

3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-AMPHETAMINE ( MDA )
compares with
3,4 METHYLENE-DIOXY-METHAMPHETAMINE ( MDMA )


Maybe this could be the a way to add some serotonin function to the "methylone" type experience, and possibly add some more of the positive MDMA-like qualities to the experience;
as with amphetamines, MDA is more psychedelic than MDMA, a property that is usually the result of higher serotonin levels.

Could swim be on to something here ???

Reputation Comments on this post:

	interesting topic
	Good question

[enquirewithin]

That would be bk-MDA. It would be interesting to give that to some lab rats. It must have been made at sometime.

There would be a correspondence-- probably less potent than MDA. Quite likely a pleasant stimulant.

[cadillac555]

What would be the correct formula for it ( swim is going to ask some of his suppliers if they can get it

[enquirewithin]

It seems that a whole series of MDCATH or bk-MDA homologues have been synthesized, if I understand correctly. See this PDF.

[Broshious]

SWIM remembers reading that just like MDMA is partially metabolized into MDA, MDMCAT is partially metabolized into MDCAT. Let us know if you have any luck.

[trip.more]

From what swim understands it degrades rapidly so it's not suitable to distribute.MDMC is already used for 3,4-ethylenedioxy-n-methylamphetamine

[Broshious]

Originally Posted by trip.more

From what swim understands it degrades rapidly so it's not suitable to distribute.MDMC is already used for 3,4-ethylenedioxy-n-methylamphetamine

In the paper enquirewithin posted, they mention MDCAT being a possible drug of abuse. I don't believe they mention it degrading anywhere in there.

[cadillac555]

Yes Swim only remembers reading the degradation of cathinone itself, not the bk-MDA or similar analogs.
Is this on the research chem market anywhere ??? It seems SWIMS suppliers only carry Methylone
He can't wait to find some of this to try on some of his lab rats.

[FrankenChrist]

Since MDMA is a very stable substance and MDCAT supposedly isn't, what causes this difference?

Mind you I don't know too much about chemistry.

[radiometer]

There are two theories as far as I know.

One is that the beta-keto analogues of primary amines are subject to dimerization. Basically, pairs of molecules will join at the amine end to form a new, inactive, compound. The ketone group of the one molecule gets stuck to the amine of the other, and vice-versa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimer

There is also a second problem with oxidation - see attached image. This is what happens to cathinone:

[Broshious]

Originally Posted by radiometer

There are two theories as far as I know.

One is that the beta-keto analogues of primary amines are subject to dimerization. Basically, pairs of molecules will join at the amine end to form a new, inactive, compound. The ketone group of the one molecule gets stuck to the amine of the other, and vice-versa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimer

There is also a second problem with oxidation - see attached image. This is what happens to cathinone:

If either of those theories is true, how rapid would the degredation be? To me it seems like if degradation were a huge problem then the aforementioned research paper would have said something about it.

[Alfa]

Like bk-MDMA is methylone, bk-MDEA is Ethylone and bk-MBDB is butylone. What would be a logical name for bk-MDA?

[trptamene]

Originally Posted by Alfa

Like bk-MDMA is methylone, bk-MDEA is Ethylone and bk-MBDB is butylone. What would be a logical name for bk-MDA?

I dont get the pattern? It's beta-keto whatever right whatever right.

and aren't the -ones (methylone, ethylone, propylone, butylone) specificaclly referring to the oxidized version methylene-dioxy-alkyl-amphetamines)

(bk-MDMA=beta-keto-methylene-dioxy-methyl-amphetamine=methylone, bk-MDEA=beta-keto-methylene-dioxy-ethyl-amphetamine=ethylone, bk-MDPA=beta-keto-methylene-dioxy-propyl-amphetamine=propylone, bk-MDBA=beta-keto-methylene-dioxy-butyl-amphetamine=butylone) ?

Is this right? What is bk-MBDB?

so there for if your "alkyl" group was a proton (bk-MDA) would be protione/protiolone/protylone/protone? What if it was deuterioum deuteriolone?

Maybe instead hydrolone? (for hydrogen)

[snapper]

alone ?

Reputation Comments on this post:

good post, haha "alone" v.good

[Nagognog2]

beta-ketone-Methylenedioxyamphetamine ... which can't really exist under that name.

[snapper]

If the methyl-, ehtyl-, butyl refers to the N-substitution, the bk-MDA would mean no N-substitution, so "alone" would be most consistent with the existing RC nomenclature, the a prefix referring to no substitution on the nitrogen. Hydrolone or dihydrolone would work. However it does not sound good either.

Maybe a catchy name like "rapture", "bliss", "euphoria" or "explosion" ?

bk-MBDB is butylone. (2-methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butan-1-one)
Propylone does not exist on the RC market (dunno why) and there is no information on it that SWIM knows of.

[trptamene]

Originally Posted by snapper

Propylone does not exist on the RC market (dunno why) and there is no information on it that SWIM knows of.

Does butylone exist? I though alfa just pulled that out of somewhere...

I would expect to have trouble crossing the BBB and thus being inactive or of low-activity.

But I would've thought DET would not be that active orally either.

EDIT:

Oh, I guess so It's on erowid and they call it bk-MBDB, I don't get it?
Oh...this is actualy alpha-ethyl-beta-keto-methylene-dioxy-methamphetamine or beta-keto-2-methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butane where MBDB=2-methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butane..

My conclusion...this is a bad shorthand naming system, but I guess its just part of the history of it all.

[enquirewithin]

"Butylone" as a name for bk-MBDB has gone out of favour as the name was already in use for phenobarbitol. I believe that Shulgin has accepted the bk- prefix for beta ketones.With methylone the name has stuck, however.

[Nagognog2]

We can always draw up molecular structures of each possible relative of the series - until our eyes pop. Shall we?

[trptamene]

Here is a start:

EDIT:
here's the "reduced beta-ketones" for comparison

Reputation Comments on this post:

	thanks for posting the nice molecular structures !
	this appears perfectly accurate and is a good contribution

[radiometer]

Originally Posted by trptamene

Here is a start:

Great stuff - perhaps this might be even better split off and reposted in its own topic?

[enquirewithin]

That looks interesting!