G Withdrawl

[Muzik]

Would Phenibut be good for withdrawal/Rebound from GBL ?Has anyone tried this out ?

[MrG]

Are you discussing withdrawal or rebound? They are two completely separate issues.

Rebound: The sudden alertness felt as the user wakes up from a G induced sleep.

Withdrawal: The effects of having maintained a near 24/7 dosing pattern over a sustained period of time (usually months) and suffering from complications caused by sudden cessation.

[cameryn]

Swim wouldn't advise using phenibut to cope with withdrawal. Swim was on phenibut for 8mo and the withdrawal was similar to GHB.

Good Luck....................nf

[chrisdahl]

Originally Posted by MrG

Are you discussing withdrawal or rebound? They are two completely separate issues

I would disagree,the rebound is the withsdrawal.Depends how long you been at it as to how long it lasts but both are the same

Full body ache,carpel tunell,anxiety,bad guts,cold sweats.Only diff is it can last two days or two weeks......ISWIME

[chrisdahl]

I'd reccomend staying of GBL and stick to GHB.GBL is a total bastardo even after just a few days hammering.GHB it takes some real hammering to get the w/d or rebound.Weird differences between the two

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by Muzik

Would Phenibut be good for withdrawal/Rebound from GBL ?Has anyone tried this out ?

No for two reasons:

1) Replacing one addiction for another is justified if it has distinct benefits over a current one. There isn't really any benefits for replacing with phenibut...

Cost: phenibut is more expensive than GBL (in most cases)
Half Life: Slightly longer but to no real advantage
Efficicay: Well firstly the effects are not 100% equivalent, there is no conversion factor (like methadone potency equivalence to heroin) and secondly I would imagine phenibut doses that even roughly match high doses of GBL would be insanly high and taxing to the kidneys etc. It certainly won't stop ALL withdrawal effects from GBL simply because it doesn't work 100% in the same manor.

2) Its more than likely to put extra burden on your body and complicate withdrawal psychologically - especially if your trying to manage alone. Phenibut is also, as mentioned above, addicitive in itself.
GBL withdrawal is serious and has the unfortunate disadvantage of not having a compound with a long half life that matches its effect profile. Diazepam (&other benzo's) are often used but its not like substituting methadone for heroin. Benzo's are fundamentally working in a slightly different way.

IF you've been using 24/7 for a long time SWIM hopes you get through ok. GBL withdrawal is no laughing matter and SWIM would advise don't be too scared to seek medical help if you need it.

[MrG]

Suggestion: Instead of titrating (same dosing pattern but smaller doses), SWIY might want to try extending the time between regular doses.

The problem of 24/7 dosing is that the brain is constantly being affected by the G so the user never reaches a baseline.

If the user can get to the point where they aren't using during the day, only the night then they are pretty much in the clear due to the short half-life.

Although replacing GBL with GHB would probably be a better initial step as GBL has a longer and heavier effect than GHB.

[snapper]

When the floodgates open and the cumulative rebound effect hit, extending doses only extend the pain. SWIM knows having hit the point of painful return with GBl a few times before learning SWIM'S lesson and not using to that frequency any more. SWIM thinks phenibut used judiciously along with benzos and possibly picamilon can take some of the pain away. Whereas extending doses merely shuts the floodgates for a while, phenibut in LOW doses helps to slow the dopamine release. It is not a cure, but it sure takes some of the pain away. In the end, benzos help more but carry their own addiction potential. The best is to not use 24/7. If a SWIY gets a 12 hr break / day and does not exceed 5-15 ml of daily use in the on period (yes, SWIM had a bit of a tolerance - scale accordingly - new user should not exceed 3ml in a dose, 5 ml in a day), rebound is not an issue. Falling into 24/7 use, however, causes that dopamine to build to excessive levels pretty quickly..Phenibut, picamilon. kavakava, benzos, neurontin and valerian, to name the most common, all work off of gaba and can help with withdrawals. SWIM omits 1,4 BDO because it is essentially GHB, as is GBL.

[MrG]

No honestly mrphucker, rebound is caused by a dose above about 1.5g whereby the user wakes fully alert from heavy sedation.

Withdrawal is usually caused by the cessation of near continual small doses of less than 1.5g

[chrisdahl]

Originally Posted by MrG

No honestly mrphucker, rebound is caused by a dose above about 1.5g whereby the user wakes fully alert from heavy sedation.

Withdrawal is usually caused by the cessation of near continual small doses of less than 1.5g

Well i dunno,swim takes 3ml and go under,when swim wake up they feel shit as swim said full body aches,shakes,carpel tunnnel but can be sorted with paracetamol an a nice shower

However,After some serious abuse swim experiences the same symptons but it lasts hell of a lot longer and no getting shut of them

Google dopamine rebound and see what comes up......this is just swim ya know

[MrG]

Obviously you don't actually mean you, you mean SWIM (Somebody Who Isn't Me).

Well SWIY (Somebody Who Isn't You) should avoid repeated GBL use as the withdrawal issues are much more severe than with GHB.

As for the whole rebound/withdrawal issue a single dose of 3ml would create a rebound situation, hence the sudden waking. The whole feeling crap part is either down to the GBL dose being larger than usual (GHB being the preferred option as it has no body load where GBL gets converted to GHB inside the body) and creating a deficiency within the body post in vivo conversion or, following serious abuse (near 24/7 use) actual withdrawal problems which *do* require a proper recovery plan (e.g. titrating with GHB instead).

[chrisdahl]

I don't believe GHB or GBL is addictive

QUOTE: the user then attempts to stop GHB use this dopamine floods the brain causing numerous effects which could be catergorized as withdrawl. The most common (and the ones I myself experienced) are Insomnia, shaking (of hands or limbs), Anxiety, Rapid heart-beat, sensations of hot and cold, general sensory over stimulation, and depression.


Obviouslly if your dosing 24/7 you are gonna have one bastardo of a rebound

Reputation Comments on this post:

Interesting theory.

[MrG]

That may be worth investigating further mrp. You might have a valid point, in that GHB is not actually addictive but someone who is dosing 24/7 will fear the rebound enough that, when it starts up again they can't help but try to alleviate it with another dose.

A rebound following normal use is just a sense of alertness after sedation, but one following a period of sustained abuse would certainly cause complications.

Hmmmm.

[chrisdahl]

Originally Posted by MrG

A rebound following normal use is just a sense of alertness after sedation, but one following a period of sustained abuse would certainly cause complications.

Not so as swim is at a stage now where they hold back for a month and then havea blow out on the GBL and the rebound is evil straight away

[MrG]

Again, not you but SWIY.

Interesting, when SWIY has a blow out how many doses over what period does he do?

[chrisdahl]

Originally Posted by MrG

Again, not you but SWIY.

Interesting, when SWIY has a blow out how many doses over what period does he do?

ye,swim will have a dose,then an hour or two later start to feel the rebound,shakes first, and knows its time for swim to dose again

SWIM thought it was just the chemical horridness of GBL as swim had never experienced any kind of rebound with GHB even after prolonged abuse(although swim does now)

[snapper]

SWIM found the rebound from GHB and GBL to be the same. SWIM, however, liked the effects of GBL better and stopped making GHB after a while. SWIM also remembers the feeling of the dopamine building and that nasty rebound after too much/ long of use - usually after a binge on a weekend. SWIM agrees that physical withdrawal is all rebound. SWIM quit a daily habit after 8 years (which always consisted of a 12 hour break - SWIM used to sleep) and had NO withdrawals at all. SWIM thinks that withdrawals, which are rebound, are only an issue with nonstop use.
SWIM's reboun effects consisted of severe anxiety, high blood pressure, shakes, agitation, characteristic unpleasant body sensations, sweats, headaches and feeling like being electrocuted. SWIM felt a lot like quitting a bad valium habit, but the experience was very distinct. I could always tell the first signs of rebound coming after that and stopped immediately.

[snapper]

SWIM thinks it takes some time of regular use to become sensitized. SWIM would always pick up on the signs of rebound after using regularly for a few years. SWIM thinks SWIM did not notice them at first until SWIM had a bad episode. Perhaps GBL sensitizes to rebound more than GHB. SWIM switched to all GBL early on so it is hard to compare.

[~lostgurl~]

SWIM used GBL every weekend (24/7 for 1-2 days per week) for about a year and never noticed the dopamine rebound during this time. Then SWIM used daily for a few months, stopping only when she slept so 16-18 hours of the day and when SWIM stopped she felt like crap for a few days but the symptoms of dopamine rebound were only felt for about a day. SWIM has only used occasionally since (5 years) and every time she uses she gets a very strong dopamine rebound after 2-3 doses of about 2.5-3mls. It is very similar to benzo withdrawal, it comes on very quickly starting about 2 hours after her last dose and only goes away after she takes a couple of Zopiclone and sleeps for a few hours. SWIM has never had to stop without zopiclone so she has no idea how long it would last if she didn't take the the Z, but thanks to Zopiclone it is very short lived.

[chrisdahl]

Thats strange,SWIM cannot sleep more than 3 hours even on a recreational dose of GBL

P.S SWIM does not suffer insominia

[~lostgurl~]

SWIM wasn't using GBL to sleep, though she would often have a small dose to relax her before going to sleep.

[MrG]

GBL certainly does appear to be a heavier dose than GHB according to SWIM and that is why he almost always converts to GHB. On occasions he hasn't gotten around to converting he might have a couple of doses of GBL but it is almost a completely different high that can seem too overpowering during and leaves him feeling kinda spaced the next day.

GHB has never caused any problem other than a mild rebound that might wake him up during the night if his dosing was a little thoughtless. He just lays there and drifts back off to sleep, certainly no actual discomfort.

SWIY might have a point there lostgurl, in that a user who is taking a dose large enough to actually sedate them is more likely to experience rebound, but the question is why are some users experiencing withdrawal related symptoms when Xyrem patients take two large doses per night with no ill effects.

Could it be that GBL *does* lead to rebound/withdrawal issues at much lower equivalent doses as snapper suggested?

mrp how much is SWIY's GBL dose usually?

[chrisdahl]

Originally Posted by MrG

mrp how much is SWIY's GBL dose usually?

Generally 3-4ml once an hour for recreation or sleep,but as said swim cannot sleep for more than 3 hoursand wakes feeling awful

swim does not experience this with powdered ghb

[~lostgurl~]

I think it may have something to do with sleep. If SWIM had been dosing all day then took a knock out dose to sleep at night, she would wake up a few hours later but the symptoms of dopamine rebound would be very mild. The longer she slept, the better she felt when she woke up. So maybe sleeping lessens the dopamine rebound, or maybe it just seemed like that because SWIM wasn't awake to feel the peak of the the rebound.

[MrG]

Interestingly enough the sleep induced by GHB has been proven to be very high quality sleep, something that Cataplexy sufferers find hard to achieve and therefore their daytime symptoms improve through the use of Xyrem when they go to bed. Their dopamine rebound (4 hours later) is unavoidable because of the large single dose taken (4.5g on average) and therefore they have to take another dose upon waking to get their full 8 hours. But this rebound awakening is not one of withdrawal and does not have the associated symptoms of withdrawal.

Withdrawal issues must be connected to the prolonged dopamine levels induced by repeated and constant dosing.

The problem is in trying to establish where the line is. When does regular recreational use reach the point of creating problems?

GHB has a very short half-life and is cleared from the body quickly whereas GBL certainly appears to show a stronger more prolonged effect, which could mean that the line is crossed a lot sooner in respect of regular recreational use.

Don't forget that there has been a whole shedload of research done in this field regarding Xyrem (GHB) but very little in comparison with GBL.

mrp your lab monkey's dosing is pretty high for recreational purposes. That much GBL hitting the system at once is going to keep on being converted by the body long after he is asleep.

That would probably explain the withdrawal problems he is experiencing.