List of dissociatives?

[khrma]

What are all the dissociatives? I always knew about ketamine and pcp, then finding out about nitrous and dxm, and now tiletamine and memantine. I am curious as to if there is others, or especially if there is natural dissociatives; since these all appear to be completely synthetic. Also has memantine been made availible for prescription in US or what? (erowid was a bit undetailed to say the least.)

Reputation Comments on this post:

great topic and good information

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by khrma

What are all the dissociatives? I always knew about ketamine and pcp, then finding out about nitrous and dxm, and now tiletamine and memantine. I am curious as to if there is others, or especially if there is natural dissociatives; since these all appear to be completely synthetic.

Well SWIM thinks that those - N2O, DXM, Ketamine, PCP and Tiletamine - are the best known (/available) dissociatives, but for example Ibogaine is also NMDA receptor antagonist - just like N2O, DXM, Ketamine, PCP and Tiletamine - and it's usually attached into psychedelics.
So SWIM thinks - If SWIY has some information about this feel free to write your own opinion - that these could be the dissociatives that are found in nature;
Amanita muscaria (Muscimol)
Ibogaine (12-Methoxyibogamine)
Salvia divinorum (Salvinorin-A)

And of course there are; - which are similiar to PCP, PCPy is slightly less weaker and PCE and TCP slightly more potent.
Eticyclidine (PCE)
Rolicyclidine (PCPy)
Tenocyclidine (TCP)
But SWIM guess that it is almost impossible to get these except if SWIY makes them by SWIYself.

Originally Posted by khrma

Also has memantine been made availible for prescription in US or what? (erowid was a bit undetailed to say the least.)

SWIM has read that Memantine is available by prescription in the U.S. - for the treatment of Alzheimer's disease.

[gallop7080]

Originally Posted by Ackman

Salvia divinorum (Salvinorin-A)

i thought salvia was a hallucinogen.

embarrass myself?

i try.

[thedeadlywar]

Originally Posted by gallop7080

i thought salvia was a hallucinogen.

embarrass myself?

i try.

Hallucinogen means 3 different types of classes, the psychedelic class, the dissociative class, and the deliriant class, Salvia is enlisted as a dissociative because it works with the NMDA receptor.

[icecreamdude321]

Originally Posted by ungelesene_bettlekture

no, it's a kappa opioid agonist.

That's true, but couldn't it have some indirect effect on the NMDA receptors? I don't know, but Salvia is a very atypical drug.

[salviablue]

CO2 apparantly has effects similar to N2O.
SWIM doesn't know how Butane works pharmacokinetically, but found the effects to be quite similar to Entonox (N2O/air mixture).
Apparantly the inert gases have dissociative effect also.

[geezaman]

@ Salviablue SWIM suggests SWIY should do a little more reading into disassociation versus asphyxiation.
As SWIM understands it If SWIY inhales Co2 they are simply depriving the brain of oxygen, this would result possibly in an odd heady feeling and eventually blacking out, potentially also causing brain damage, Butane would work similarly although have slightly different effects.

Nitrous oxide is a true dissociative also having anesthetic and analgesic effects, used correctly nitrous oxide is also safe. SWIM would strongly suggest leaving butane and carbon dioxide well alone and just using nitrous oxide.

Peace
Geezaman

Reputation Comments on this post:

excellent information!

[salviablue]

Without wishing to seem rude, swim does think s/he has a fair understanding of dissociatives and that one thinks CO2 could certainly be considered a dissociative (anaesthetic too,).
Swim couldn't find the original article s/he wished to draw attention to (its on my laptop HD - and that crashed a few days ago, possibly lost along w/a shit load of other uber important stuff!) But did find this one.
My assumptions are based on articles like this:

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/carb...article1.shtml

Maybe what should have been said was carbogen instead of CO2.

Butane(/propane(mix)) effects, swim reported, are very remeniscent(?) Of entonox. Not knowing the pharmacokinetic action in the brain/body swim couldn't comment above conjecture that butane and or propane are dissociatives.

[geezaman]

SWIgeezaman is here to learn too, sorry if any offence was caused. SWIM might of jumped to some conclusions. Inhaling a mix of 30% CO2 and 70% O2 as the article suggests certainly seems alot healthier than just 100% CO2.
SWIM is always wary or posts that might be held high by those wanting a cheap easily accessible high, SWIM knows he himself spent many many hours when he first discovered drugs scouring threads on other forums titled "how to get high from household products" and alike. A post that could be read as "butane, propane and co2 are just as good as nitrous" seemed from SWIMs understanding to be both wrong and potentially harmful.
Thankyou for SWIYs second post clearing this up.

To add another one to the list - Ethyl Chloride (used In tattooing as an anesthetic cooling spray)
Peace
Geezaman

[salviablue]

None taken.

I am finding it very difficult to find accurate information on the effects of butane (and or propane) or the noble gases, (In the article I had read, but cant find now, the "lecturer" was talking about inhaling N2O and how that CO2 has the same or very similar action and that it was true for some of the noble gases as well).

I found this about butane:
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims...cal/pim945.htm
Although it doesnt give much credence to my OP, and it agrees some what with geezaman said,

As SWIM understands it If SWIY inhales Co2 they are simply depriving the brain of oxygen, this would result possibly in an odd heady feeling and eventually blacking out, potentially also causing brain damage, Butane would work similarly although have slightly different effects.

SWIM has found that butane and/or propane has very similar effects to the time s/he had with N2O, but more "metallic" and there was this weird nasty repeating thing going on (you had to 'snap out of it'). N2O had that repeating thing as well, but it was 'kinder' somehow.
From what SWIM said, I thought butane and/or propane might possibly be a dissociative.
All the incidents swim has had with gases, were used in mixtures with oxygen/air, and never by discharging the gas directly into the mouth.


BE AWARE: Some noble gases are poisonous! Inhaling butane, or N2O, (or indeed anything, including air,) maybe extremely dangerous and is not recommended.

[Panthers007]

Noble Gases are: Helium, Argon, Neon, Krypton, Xenon, and Radon. With the exception of Radon - none are poisonous. They act as simple asphyxiants. These are present in the Radon is highly radioactive and causes lung-cancer.

Perhaps the definition of dissociative needs some work here...

[salviablue]

I must be going mad, I`m sure I read last night that at least one of the nobles was poisonous! Oh well.

The wiki entry on noble gases actually states xenon as a more effective anaesthetic than N20. As far as I can remember of my years at uni (if somewhat unsuccessful) the anaesthetic effects where derived through these gases` dissociative effects (- leading to at least xenon, from the nobles, as being a dissociative?).


The wiki entry for dissociatives lists these:

Psychoactive substances can often induce a state of temporary dissociation. Substances with dissociative properties include ketamine, nitrous oxide, tiletamine, DXM, cannabis, PCP, 2C-B, salvia and ibogaine. [23]

It also give a definition of dissociative and it follows fairly closely to what I remember from uni, that dissociatives tend to cause anaesthesia through the compartmentalization of the brain/mind. Simplified, that they stop the different parts of the brain from effectively communicating with each other. (I am leaving myself wide open here as I am only typing what I remember from a bad period in my life where I also dropped out from a neuroscience course half way through some 8 years ago).

I wonder whether there needs to be some definitive explanation of what exactly is considered a dissociative available to the general public domain in some kind of "laymans" terms. Text books will have answers but they tend to be generally inaccessable to the general public (in terms of understanding mainly), also they may have to be adapted by 'someone in the know' to be fully conductive to what is being discussed here.

Actually, what is the definition of a dissociative in this case, is it down to the 'tickling' of certain receptors, or down to the tickling of certain receptors that always leads to a compartmentalization effect on the brain, or just the compart. through whatever means?

Having said all this, it is even more difficult for swim to tell the difference between similar psychedelically acting gases as to which maybe anaethetising or not as swim had apparently not noticed ANY anaesthetic from N2O nor butane/propane, but has found them to be otherwise fairly similar. SWIM has done N2O (mainly as entonox) many times and in varying amounts and has done butane and/or propane a fair few and has had very heavy 'trippy' effects from them (mainly 'in the head' and aural distortions/hallucinations) with often very 'drunk body' accompaniments.

[geezaman]

Originally Posted by salviablue

All the incidents swim has had with gases, were used in mixtures with oxygen/air, and never by discharging the gas directly into the mouth.
.

SWIM is interested in SWIYs comment above, can they remember which gasses were inhaled with pure oxygen, as inhaling just or a high proportion of oxygen can (from a few experiences of SWIMs) cause a "high" of a sort.

78.084% Nitrogen

20.947% Oxygen

0.934% Argon

0.033% Carbon Dioxide

SWIM found the above composition of air from some old notes, so it may not be spot on but he thinks can be considered roughly correct

Here we see a potential great difference between inhaling air and a specified gas, and oxygen and a specified gas ( for example 21% oxygen in air and nitrous vs 50% oxygen in entonox)


SWIM wouldn't advise anyone to inhale butane or propane, but if they were to it might be somewhat less damaging/safer if administered with oxygen.... On the other hand if the effects experienced from butane or propane are through oxygen deprivation any desired(?) effects would also be diminished

SWIY said they noticed no different anesthetic effects between nitrous and butane/propane, if the nitrous was experienced via entonox there would (SWIM expects) have been no bluing of lips fingers etc, where as with propane/butane and air, SWIM expects this would have been experienced.
If SWIY compares the anesthetic gas ethyl chloride with propane/butane and air SWIM is sure they will notice great difference in the anesthetic effects.

This thread/wiki seems to explain Disassociatives well.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31587

Peace
Geezaman

[salviablue]

Adequate butane (from here on in butane, propane or any mix there of will be referred to as butane - the common source is camping gas which can vary between both butane and propane or be a mix of the two.)
was discharged into a scrumpled cloth. The cloth was then placed over the mouth and breathed through until the gas had evaporated (usually about 4-6 breathes),inhaling through the mouth and exhaling through the nose. Thus I think it would be fair to say swim was inhaling a butane/air mixture, what the percentage of the mix would be I cant really guess at.


Where the nitrous is concerned, some experiences were with entonox (50/50 N2O/O2) and the rest with food grade cannisters, discharged into thick balloons or a mini drinks carbonator, and inhaled from there. The gas was not recycled (as in breathed in and out into the balloon), a big lungful of air was taken after every couple of nitrous inhalations. The shallow breathing technique was also usually used (take the gas into the lungs and force deep 'to the bottom of the lungs', then proceed to breath but only from the 'top of the lungs' so as to keep the nitrous in the lungs - the part with the densest no of aureoles - but still be able to take in oxygen. Learnt from/for salvia divinorum.) which kept swim from too much oxygen deprivation.

It would interest swim greatly, in light of geezaman`s thoughts, to see if a pure oxygen/butane mix would decrease/eliminate the effects at all.

SWIM has also experienced oxygen deprivation in both intentionally and unintentionally, and to swims mind it does in no way compare to the effects from butane/air mix.

I wonder if anyone has experienced similar (that is willing to discuss it, what with butane being a bit of a hot potato!)?

[timleary263]

Co2 is a dissociative wich iv had few experiences with but wre all weird and interesting

[salviablue]

I have been pointed to this page from another thread
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_narcosis
Which seems to support the theory that certain noble gases can be classed as and indeed are dissociatives, as their mode of action are dissociative anaesthetic in nature.
If N2O is regarded as a dissociative, then so should be Xe, as its dissociative anaesthetic action is extremely effective (I seem to remember reading somewhere it being more effective than N2O).
I think Xenon at least should be added to the dissociative list.

[Stephenwolf]

Noscapine appears to be a potential dissociative drug, its natural from poppy, Sigma Receptor Agonist, Wikipedia says that its intoxication is similar to DXM and Alcohol, but i've never seen anyone who claims to have actually tried it.

[samsa]

I am just finishing a bit of research I did on dissociatives. Here is a list of noncompetitive and uncompetitive NMDA receptor antagonists:

Amantadine- used for treating Parkinson's, influenza, and Alzhiemer's.
Aptiganel (Cerestat, CNS-1102)- binds the Mg binding site within the channel of the NMDA receptor.
Dextromethorphan (DXM)- an antitissueive found in cough medicine.
Dextrorphan (DXO)- active metabolite of dextromethorphan with more selective receptors.
Dizocilpine (MK-801): an experimental drug that mimics schitzophrenia in animals, potential to treat stroke, traumatic brain injury, and neurodegenerative diseases such as Huntington's, Alzheimer's, and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis.
HU-211- an enantiomer of the potent cannabinoid HU-210 which lacks cannabinoid effects and instead acts as a potent non-competitive NMDA antagonist.
Ibogaine- a Scheduel I controlled substance in the United States. Found in Dogbane family of plants and used to treat addiction.
Ketamine- an animal and human anesthetic and recreational drug.
Memantine- moderate affinity, voltage-dependent uncompetitive antagonist. Approved in the U.S. by the FDA for the treatment of Alzheimer's disease.
Nitrous Oxide (NO2)- used for anesthesia, particularly in dentistry.
Phencyclidine (PCP)- a Scheduel II controlled substance in the United States.
Remacimide- principle metabolite is an uncompetitive antagonist with a low affinity for the binding site.
Riluzole- used to treat amyotrophic lateral sclerosis.
Tiletamine- an animal anesthetic.
Also, most noble gasses, as impracticle as they may be.


Please be aware that use of dissociatives may lead to Onley's Lesions and brain damage.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice job compiling the list (although Olney's Lesions have not yet been proven or disproven to manifest in humans)

[salviablue]

I have just found this about xenons possible actions as an anaesthetic

Conclusions: In the current study, xenon considerably depressed NMDA and AMPA receptor-mediated synaptic transmission in the basolateral amygdala without affecting inhibitory synaptic transmission. The results provide evidence that the effects of xenon on NMDA- and AMPA-EPSCs are primarily mediated via postsynaptic mechanisms.

from http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiolo...te_and.13.aspx