Ground Poppy Pod in Capsules for Eating

[jayjohnson81]

Some dudes were talking at a coffee shop and discussing why, if the tea tastes so terrible, why dont more folks just eat the stuff?

One guy went so far as to say, why not grind the pod and pack the powder into some gel caps? No nasty taste, and it would be more efficient for material use even. As in, take 1/4 of the usual dose material to test effect.

The other guy said he heard that you dont get as much of a solid onset - a more gradual coming on of the effects. Also that the effects from eating lasted much longer.

What do you all think about the differences between consuming pod tea and eating the powder? Seemed like an interesting little discussion...

Reputation Comments on this post:

great comments and ideas, certainly adds to the conference.

[Emmajs]

Dude, your supposed to arrange the dried flowers in a vase and view them.

But you and your friends are on the right track, I've heard people talk about juice and grounds, or paracuting. Try a search.

[jayjohnson81]

Of course I don't plan on doing this - just something I'm curious about. Curiousity is not illegal (yet) if I remember correctly.

Parchuting can come in handy in a pinch I suppose, but gelcaps just seem so more `classy.`

My question is in dose difference. Say if one is used to a tea prepared with cold water, lemon and lime juice, stirred occassionally and kept in the freezer steeping for about 30 minutes. They use 7 grams of ground material. If they switch to eating - would 3.5 grams material in caps be about the same?

I'm curious about hard facts on what percentage of alkaloids end up in the tea and in your system, as opposed to the percentage from eating ground material.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by jayjohnson

Of course I don't plan on doing this - just something I'm curious about. Curiousity is not illegal (yet) if I remember correctly.

Parchuting can come in handy in a pinch I suppose, but gelcaps just seem so more `classy.`

My question is in dose difference. Say if one is used to a tea prepared with cold water, lemon and lime juice, stirred occassionally and kept in the freezer steeping for about 30 minutes. They use 7 grams of ground material. If they switch to eating - would 3.5 grams material in caps be about the same?

I'm curious about hard facts on what percentage of alkaloids end up in the tea and in your system, as opposed to the percentage from eating ground material.

Since the alkaloid content even for different pods on the same plant (example: hens & chickens) can vary, there is no way to determine the alkaloid content unless you chemically test it.

Also, since the opiates are all water soluble, the tea will extract almost all of the content anyway. One does not have to drink the tea once this is obtained. One could easily make the "gel caps" you are talking about by evaporating off the water content as one has mentioned in other threads.

This seems like a more logical way in SWIM's opinion for a number of reasons.
1. the dosage is more controlled.
2. because the alkaloids are now in a pre-extracted form they are more readily ABSORBED by the stomach walls rather than DIGESTED.

here is an example, lets say that someone usually makes around 1 liter of liquid from 6 or 7 pods and shares that with a friend (roughly a large cup each with 3.5 pods) if one were to evaporate off the water content and is left with the amber/brown/black goo at the end one would STILL have the same amount of alkaloids in it. therefor one would assume that one would halve that, put it in a gel cap, and share the experience with ones friend.

If one were to strain this off through a coffee filter before evaporating off the water content, one would find that they are left with plant material and gray wax like sludge in the filters (SWIM uses around 4 filters onto of each other in case they break from moisture). This sludge is totally useless and can be discarded and the resulting water content evaporated for an even more refined and cleaner result (in theory).

with grounds, the alkaloid content of the plant material would be the same to VERY slightly more than the tea since almost all of the alkaloid content is extracted when using the right method. IF one were to find the right dosage for ones self or already know the right dosage for ones self then they would find that the equivalent dosage from dried grounds would be the same or very similar to the dosage from tea.

remember, that is an example. SWIM is in no way suggesting any dosage or suggesting to try it, this is . . . as always . . for research purposes only.

[jayjohnson81]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

This seems like a more logical way in SWIM's opinion for a number of reasons.
1. the dosage is more controlled.
2. because the alkaloids are now in a pre-extracted form they are more readily ABSORBED by the stomach walls rather than DIGESTED.

Not that it matters much, but why do you say dosage more controlled? With constant variability of materials potency, one always needs to slowly test and build up to correct dosages.

2nd point - I LIKE! This could make for some potent little life-enablers for people with chronic pain. Definately the route to go if pills are preferred. Although - time might be an issue. (Hard to beat the grind pod and fill capsule route for brevity!) In my current mental state I can't image how to speed up the evaporating part without possibly destroying the whole point in the first place (from heat.) Small batches or large surface areas to evaporate I suppose. (Recalling scenes from Blow right now...)

Here's a question - how do we find out the minimum amount of water needed to extract from 1 unit(gram, pound,etc) its sought after components?
As always it would depend on variable potency of source material. But how does one check available solubility in solution?

Someone that is me would never consider attempting such experiments in anything but theory and discussion. I love hypothesizing because I'm just fascinated by such a potent natural pain reliever. Respect and love for the Earff.

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by jayjohnson

Here's a question - how do we find out the minimum amount of water needed to extract from 1 unit(gram, pound,etc) its sought after components?
As always it would depend on variable potency of source material. But how does one check available solubility in solution?

Sorry I missed SWIM's question in ones previous post. Here is the information SWIM has on this subject. In SWIM's 20 odd years of traveling, especially the S.E.Asian regions he has found that most peoples whom produce opium tend to use 10 times the weight/volume in water Vs the material started with.

For example again: If one were to have 1 gram of gum one would use 10 times the weight / volume in water to dissolve it in. 1 gram in W/V is the equivalent of 10ml W/V of water. Therefor one would dissolve a gram of opium (preferably cooked) into 100ml of water. If one here to have 10 grams of opium gum they would use 1 liter. So on and so forth. This has been found to have a somewhat unreliable potency level of around 500mg of active alkaloids in every gram on average. But of course then there is the paradox of the variable potency. Taking this into account, if one were to start with a bit that weighs around 0.1 of a gram (match head size) then by deduction one comes to the conclusion that it will contain no more than 50mg of active alkaloids on average. Taking into account the more potent alkaloids in the opiate family, morphine being the most desirable, the average morphine content is around 10 to 15 percent. Therefor AGAIN one would come to the deduction that in the 50mg of active alkaloids one would have in theory around 5mg of morphine, a very safe and standard level which is used commonly by hospitals around the world. Next time you are in a hospital take note of the dosage of painkillers one receives. It is usually a 5mg morphine sulphate injection at hourly intervals for fairly heavy pain relief. Morphine sulphate is quite easy to make also SWIM tells me, it is a very simple process in which sulphuric acid and lime calcite are used.

Again One hopes this has been of some help for Ones research into this matter.

[jayjohnson81]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

For example again: If one were to have 1 gram of gum one would use 10 times the weight / volume in water to dissolve it in. 1 gram in W/V is the equivalent of 10ml W/V of water. Therefor one would dissolve a gram of opium (preferably cooked) into 100ml of water.

Same if we are talking about 1 g of pod thats been ground/powdered? 100ml per 1 g?

I just read of a guy who typically made a (double) cup of tea with 8g pod and only about 500ml - would you say from your observations that this guys probably saturated his solution and would most likely not be getting the most possible from the extraction? Wasting in fact?

Like I said - this is fascinating stuff to think about. Thanks for discussing this stuff and sharing your knowledge with me!

[samuraigecko]

The reason that smoking is more controlled is because of the immediate high.
Here is an example: SWIM takes a bit of refined and cooked opium about the size of a match head and smokes it. this may produce the desired effect for him and is definitely not enough to overdose someone in SWIMs experience. However, if that was not enough one could keep using half match head sizes until they find the right size for them. Remember that once a tea or pill is taken, it cannot be "un-taken" or "un-drank" unless you try to throw up, but by then most of the alkaloids will be absorbed by Ones stomach as it is HIGHLY absorbable by the stomach walls. This should conclude that smoking is the safer way, however some people prefer to eat or drink it and it ends up being totally a preference thing. One is NOT advising you to do either, just merely presenting the facts so that if one WERE to do it they will go into it with more knowledge.

hope this has helped.

[jayjohnson81]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

The reason that smoking is more controlled is because of the immediate high.

But we're talking about the product being capsules.

Of course, once you've gone to the work of evap, you *have* smokeable product, right? BUT - one of the biggest benefits of ingesting is it is the least harmful to the body. Too many opportunities for smoking throughout our lives and lungs are not cheap to replace (or fix, especially if with chemotherapy!)

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by jayjohnson

But we're talking about the product being capsules.

Of course, once you've gone to the work of evap, you *have* smokeable product, right? BUT - one of the biggest benefits of ingesting is it is the least harmful to the body. Too many opportunities for smoking throughout our lives and lungs are not cheap to replace (or fix, especially if with chemotherapy!)

again, even though one mentioned the smokable form it was relative for dosage. Since it is a safer short-term way one could determine their minimum dosage and work up from there. Once they had found that dosage they could then begin to ingest with less risk.

[jayjohnson81]

Ah, much respect sir. From this post and searching, I've learned alot from you today! Thank you. What was with the travel? None of my business anyways...

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

again, even though one mentioned the smokable form it was relative for dosage. Since it is a safer short-term way one could determine their minimum dosage and work up from there. Once they had found that dosage they could then begin to ingest with less risk.

Wait, are you saying that the patient could smoke the product first to determine dose for their capsules? Am I understanding that correctly?

Thanks for the convo - it's been very entertaining.

[samuraigecko]

yes, or one could use the mentioned approximates to determine dosage and roll the dice to find out. lol

[keats]

The problem with the poppy pod capsule idea is the same problem as the (mescaline) cactus capsule idea I've heard tossed around: there's too much material. Is it possible? Yes. Is it worth it? Probably not. Even ground into fine powder (which is a bitch with poppy pods) the amount of plant material you need to eat/drink/consume orally in any way to get high is large enough that putting it all into capsules and then eating it would probably be more trouble than it's worth. But to answer your original question: yeah it's possible, but I wouldn't try it, just suck it up and drink it.

[Nacumen]

SWIM couldn't imagine that eating so much material would sit well with him. If he had to choose based on no previous knowledge of which would feel better, he'd go with the tea, just because he'd assume his digestive system would have to deal with far less than if he had consumed the whole mass of the pods themselves.

[jayjohnson81]

Well, it kinda depends on the size on ones habit guys.

SWIM says it take 3 caps to get 1g of material. I would assume (uh-oh!) that ingesting all the material will get you more of the medicine than the same amount used to make tea. Could be wrong...

And SWIM said for consistancy of material and absorption in tea, she always fully grinds pods. From there filling caps is a simple enough task for a child. If ones chronic pain condition is in the fingers, there is also a $10 piece of plastic that holds about 50 caps at a time to make filling easy enough for a helper monkey.

With 6 caps, one can re-dose easily at 2 grams material. In fact - how hard then is 4grams at 12 caps? Am I just overly eager to swallow things? (It was wide open, I had to take it. Even at my own expense...)

Hey - maybe the extraction of the natural fiber is whats causing the constipation from natures gift?

I hate to even discuss the point as a better idea was already presented by samuraiGecko

[jaffacake]

The other problem with eating the dried poppy is you have no idea where the poppies have been. They could have been laid on a turkish farmers floor next to where the goat shits for 3 months.

[jayjohnson81]

Ok - but I don't think the low temperture (to avoid destroying the goods) would sterilize tea (if heat is even used to make the tea!) So , part of poppies is the natural goodness of goat poo! Mmmmm!

[jaffacake]

You can boil poppies without destroying the goodies tho and even go a lot higher than boiling point otherwise espresso machines wouldn't work so well. It wouldn't take much of a boil to get rid of the microbes spread to the poppies from the bottom of the goatherders sandals.

Reputation Comments on this post:

incorrect and misleading information

[keats]

That's false, jaffa cake. Opiate alkaloids begin to be destroyed at temperatures significantly below the boiling point. Read the flake opium guide, for example, where samuraigecko recommends never letting the water so much as simmer, much less boil. That's a recommendation you'll hear (to varying degrees, some would say some simmering is ok) from anyone who's knowledgable about making tea/opium, or anyone who's read a bit into the chemistry for that matter. Boiling the water while making tea is also unnecesary, the poppies don't need to be sterilized.

[jaffacake]

Originally Posted by keats

That's false, jaffa cake. Opiate alkaloids begin to be destroyed at temperatures significantly below the boiling point. Read the flake opium guide, for example, where samuraigecko recommends never letting the water so much as simmer, much less boil. That's a recommendation you'll hear (to varying degrees, some would say some simmering is ok) from anyone who's knowledgable about making tea/opium, or anyone who's read a bit into the chemistry for that matter. Boiling the water while making tea is also unnecesary, the poppies don't need to be sterilized.

So why does espresso work so well? Surely that uses heat in excess of boiling point?

[jaffacake]

And why doesn't the dried poppy need to be sterilised?

[jayjohnson81]

Yup - don't boil or you'll ruin the meds.

[paranoid_android]

Considering that an empty stomach is better for absorption than taking with/after food, it would stand to reason that the negligible loss of alkaloids in making a tea is more than made up for by not having as much solid material getting in the way.

Playing devil's advocate, I would then bring up the fact that there is volumetrically more water in a tea than powder in the gelcap method. The counter argument for this is that the water allows the alkaloids to access more surface area in the stomach, rather than taking up surface area like the powder. At this point it's not even a matter of powder gelcaps being more inconvenient than tea (aside from taste*). Powder's only true advantage is that it might last longer, which is only a result of its relatively poor absorption.

In summation, I would wager tea is better than powder in all ways except taste and duration of action.


*SwiPA once consumed over 35 large gelcaps of kratom to avoid the taste. It turns out there's quite a distinct taste on the back of the tongue when downing a few dozen of them.

[paranoid_android]

Jaffacake I try to restrain myself in these situations but you clearly don't understand the topic. So let's list a few facts here.

"Boiling" is the term used when a liquid gets hot enough to turn into a gas.
Espresso uses steam, and steam is water in gas form - boiled water.
Water boils at 100 degrees Celsius.
Therefore steam is at least 100 degrees Celsius.
Caffeine doesn't break down at 100 degrees Celsius.
Opiates break down at 80 degrees Celsius.
Simmering water, even if it's not boiling, can get past 80 degrees Celsius.
Any germs gathered on a poppy will be on the outside surface.
The opiates are inside the actual poppy material, not on the surface.
Wiping with alcohol or washing the outside of a poppy will destroy germs but leave the opiates alone.
When you grind/crush the poppy and then boil it, it exposes the opiates to temperatures that will destroy them.
The opiate chemicals are too small to see with the naked eye, so you don't notice they are destroyed.
Very quick exposure won't be long enough to destroy the opiates unless the temperature is enormous. We're talking a couple seconds at most. This is only because the whole amount of poppy material doesn't have time to get that hot.
Caffeine is not an opiate. Opiates are not caffeine. Poppies are not coffee beans.

Now if you're trying to tell us that you put crushed poppies in your espresso machine, there are two possible reasons SWIY might feel something. The first is that the very brief contact with steam doesn't break down the opiates significantly. I doubt that's the case. Much more likely is that SWI-you're getting a very small amount of opiates that didn't get broken down, and the rest is the placebo effect.

And don't say the placebo effect couldn't make you feel high, because it can. The placebo effect is often misunderstood: most people believe it means that you just think you're high. That's not true. The placebo effect is actually a true chemical reaction that makes you high because your brain thinks it's getting the chemicals.

I'd also like to add that the digestive system has powerful acids that break down most bacteria instantly. The few things you can get sick from eating, like E. Coli and whatnot, are the exception, not the rule.

Jaffacake, if you post back saying the same stuff, it either means you didn't read my post or you have a very tenuous grasp on the English language.

As always... I don't mean to sound condescending or rude, but I am, so that's how it comes out.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good response to a complete moron who doesn't know when to stfu. Also cool that swim knew that the placebo is a real re...

[jaffacake]

I like your style Mr Android!

But you do know it's not just me who has used espresso? If you read the poppies org site you'll find 10-15 pages long threads where everyone says how espresso - yep using temperatures way over 80C - produces by far the most powerful brews people have ever experienced.