Opinions - Do you think LSD was a major influence in the outcome of the Vietnam war?

[Dalfir]

I imagine if so, that would be the biggest contributor to its controlled status. In previous times of war, patriotic men would blindly follow their government's orders no matter the cost of life. Then, suddenly, thousands upon thousands of young people start growing their hair long, dropping out of society and calling for an end to the war while those overseas become even less sure of their situation.

At a recent music festival I was speaking to some old men, with a very paternal but not hippie look, who said that LSD was a huge influence in the Apartheid struggle and broke a lot of borders between blacks and whites, especially when segregation was government enforced.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great thread! :)

[redpoppy]

I'm really interested in this theory. I have a friend who swears teh only reason that LSD is illegal is because peopel would stop living the system.

If LSD wasn't there I don't know what would have happened in the 60s/70s. It obviously had a huge part to play but tehre were otehr factors. The hippy movement was preceded by teh general beatmovement or things which may not have called themselves beat but had that same vibe.

I dont believe LSD was a HUGE influence in that although i'm sure it played a part. The post WW2 socio political climate probably had a lot to do with it also. BOys growing up without fathers and generally a HUGE 2war does things to people's perceptions of what is and what is not acceptable.

Its like that quote form Fear and Loathing which goes on abotu teh mid 60s in sanfran which is just amazing. I'm sure being part of it was just different. A naive or maybe not so naive belief that human nature was evolving. I'm sure that spirit although fading was what added pressure to the anti war movement. However I think LSD is different in different minds.

What do you think?

[FuBai]

I don't think it had any real influence because we had seen the advent of worldwide media coverage and were beaming the depredations of war into people's TV screens who's effect was significant. Also LSD was still only taken by a small fraction of the population. It is true, however, that all of the 77 soldiers who were given LSD quit the army on the spot.

[Nagognog2]

Suggested top of reading list about effects of LSD on society - including it's being outlawed and Vietnam:

Acid Dreams - The Complete History of LSD: The CIA, The Sixties, And Beyond

Martin A. Lee & Bruce Shlain Grove Press


(How long is your hair? LOL)

[Dalfir]

SWIM's mother is politically moderate, but during a discussion about psychedelic drugs she's of the opinion that society at the moment is so rampant and unrestrained, not directly because of such substances, but because of their influence.

If LSD (or any psychoactive for that matter) had never broken out into the public all those years ago, we'd most probably be living a Cleaver lifestyle, on a much grander scale. Everyone blindly obeying the authorities and being provided with a sheltered albeit secure standard of living. While we are definitely living in...exciting times, do you think the strict control of psychedelics forty years ago would have lead to a boring, always-nodding-never-no'ing standard of living?

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by Dalfir

SWIM's mother is politically moderate, but during a discussion about psychedelic drugs she's of the opinion that society at the moment is so rampant and unrestrained, not directly because of such substances, but because of their influence.

If LSD (or any psychoactive for that matter) had never broken out into the public all those years ago, we'd most probably be living a Cleaver lifestyle, on a much grander scale. Everyone blindly obeying the authorities and being provided with a sheltered albeit secure standard of living. While we are definitely living in...exciting times, do you think the strict control of psychedelics forty years ago would have lead to a boring, always-nodding-never-no'ing standard of living?

Those attitudes were growing as a result of the fears of faschism after the second world war. Psychedelic drugs were a symptom of rather than cause of the rebellion against authority.

[redpoppy]

I agree about drug use being a symptom howerver there is an obvious culture that comes with every drug. cannabis culture is VERy different to cocaine culture is very different to MDMA culture.

they induce things in humans.

And hence LSD also induces things in humans. Albiet things of their own making but if you have enough of a personality to rebel against authority, and then take a substance that consistently makes high proportions of thsoe who take it realise teh relativity of perception and opinions etc. then I think there is something special about the culture surrounding LSD. There are repetitive thmes such as "being one with nature" etc. which feed this culture.

There wer a LOT of things going on socio-politically in post WW2 world but i do think LSD was one of them.

HOwever the veitnam war didn't end till quite late.

[FuBai]

Originally Posted by redpoppy

I agree about drug use being a symptom howerver there is an obvious culture that comes with every drug. cannabis culture is VERy different to cocaine culture is very different to MDMA culture.

they induce things in humans.

And hence LSD also induces things in humans. Albiet things of their own making but if you have enough of a personality to rebel against authority, and then take a substance that consistently makes high proportions of thsoe who take it realise teh relativity of perception and opinions etc. then I think there is something special about the culture surrounding LSD. There are repetitive thmes such as "being one with nature" etc. which feed this culture.

There wer a LOT of things going on socio-politically in post WW2 world but i do think LSD was one of them.

HOwever the veitnam war didn't end till quite late.

I would agree with you that there are different drug cultures and that LSD culture is one of the more attractive ones, but I would remind you that the drug user cultures are self-selecting. People who like LSD tend to have simmilar characteristcs because the group self-selects not because the LSD causes the difference. People who are atrracted to LSD have certain characteristics (by large), and that is different from people who may be attracted to cocaine.

[Dalfir]

SWIM has come into contact with local LSD families/cults and he can tell you that it's not nearly as glamourous or Disney as you might think. In fact, it's downright creepy. I was having a conversation with a friend, and we both feel that it's quite evident that drugs influence the power-figures of the world and it seems that most of their decisions are influenced by cocaine and other ego-inflating drugs which leads to machoism and unnecassary displays of power. What would the world be like if presidents were using LSD instead of coke? (Of course, this was pure backseat philosophy and I'm probably wrong in the assumption)

[chemlove]

I think its safe to say that lsd probably didn't stop the war, but what i think it did was open the eyes of the youngsters who were needed in the war. I think people quickly soured on the war (well at least at that point in the sixties) people were noticing that this war was dragging on and that people were dying without a true cause. I think that people when woken up realize that many of these multi national wars and problems and economic wars are a waste of our citizens time and only really help the people at the top of the chain. people over the years have gotten sick of all of this and thats why i believe we have such a large multi million dollar campaign to promote backwards views in places like mass media and ultra-conservative media.

[redpoppy]

Originally Posted by FuBai

I would agree with you that there are different drug cultures and that LSD culture is one of the more attractive ones, but I would remind you that the drug user cultures are self-selecting. People who like LSD tend to have simmilar characteristcs because the group self-selects not because the LSD causes the difference. People who are atrracted to LSD have certain characteristics (by large), and that is different from people who may be attracted to cocaine.

I agree but that in itself is what I was getting at. as in "if you're of a rebelious nature" etc.

However I've met too many angry testosteroned teenage guys who if had dabbled greatly in Cocaine instead of Acid would have turned out very differently.

Admittedly they all went on to do cocaine but not in that great a quantity.

One guys just such a complete hippy its hard to believe he was anythign but.

[jux]

its always been my opinion that the use of LSD was a result of them being open minded, not the cause. today there are alot of people using various psychadelics (including lsd), but you dont see the same level of political activism as there was during veitnam.

[eltimmy]

>SWIM has come into contact with local LSD families/cults and he can tell you that it's not nearly as glamourous or Disney as you might think. In fact, it's downright creepy

Let's not forget the use of psilocybin mushrooms in ritual sacrifice. The drugs can be used to as many ends as the human mind itself -- we speak, after all, of the stuff of consciousness.

>it seems that most of their decisions are influenced by cocaine and other ego-inflating drugs which leads to machoism and unnecassary displays of power

LOL, you may have something there but rulers have been macho, power-hungry, and egotistical since the dawn of human history and before. Alexander? Napoleon? Or, (to oversimplify) drugs by the nature of their chemical action tend to encourage certain mental states -- and plenty of people are already close to or entirely ensconced in said mental states.

[chemlove]

Originally Posted by eltimmy

>SWIM has come into contact with local LSD families/cults and he can tell you that it's not nearly as glamourous or Disney as you might think. In fact, it's downright creepy

Let's not forget the use of psilocybin mushrooms in ritual sacrifice. The drugs can be used to as many ends as the human mind itself -- we speak, after all, of the stuff of consciousness.

>it seems that most of their decisions are influenced by cocaine and other ego-inflating drugs which leads to machoism and unnecassary displays of power

LOL, you may have something there but rulers have been macho, power-hungry, and egotistical since the dawn of human history and before. Alexander? Napoleon? Or, (to oversimplify) drugs by the nature of their chemical action tend to encourage certain mental states -- and plenty of people are already close to or entirely ensconced in said mental states.

I have heard that LSD cults, and other cults that take psycho active chemicals aren't so much weird as they are just way different then "normal" drug users. A friend once told me that he had read stories of not human sacrifice, but animal sacrifice. This totally grossed me out. Why you would want to take something so beautiful (a unique experience with a colorful compound), and do something so disgusting is way beyond me!

[chemlove]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

Suggested top of reading list about effects of LSD on society - including it's being outlawed and Vietnam:

Acid Dreams - The Complete History of LSD: The CIA, The Sixties, And Beyond

Martin A. Lee & Bruce Shlain Grove Press


(How long is your hair? LOL)

I stumbled onto this book at least twice at borders, thanks for the advice next time i go it's going on my must buy list

[Jatelka]

Originally Posted by chemlove

I stumbled onto this book at least twice at borders, thanks for the advice next time i go it's going on my must buy list

It's in the archive here...

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...2902&catid=117

I'd still buy it though (only from my local, independant book shop rather than a huge chain!)

[redpoppy]

Originally Posted by Jatelka

I'd still buy it though (only from my local, independant book shop rather than a huge chain!)

Right on sister.