It robs you of your very soul and you don't even notice.

[psyche]

once again,addiction and silly actions are caused by people not drugs,if someones driving down the road sober doing 110mph and they crash and die its there fault not the cars.the car is only a vehical of there destruction.

If you start from the concept that brain is nothing more than a wired bunch of neurons, and meth can affect it, then it's the combination of brain and the drug molecules that make people do those things. After all there are same percentages of addicts to each drug for rats in laboratory and humans on the loose. But ultimately, if you are fully developed and have tight principles on what is ok and what is not, meth can't change the rational moral sets you have if you choose not to let them change after starting the usage.

Important note: I have never used meth, and my buddy SWIM has very limited experience on hard drugs, but he has a clue how great they can be, and friend are not necessary. I don't think this lack of experience can invalidate my point, though.

[runfrom MURDER]

Remember, meth can completely change your opinion on addictions, trust me.

After your first few sessions, your beliefs will more than likely completely twist around and be changed.

But of course, theres the [lucky] guys and gals that have incredible will power. Those might be a bit different.

[runfrom MURDER]

The problem SWIM sees with AA and NA is the beliefs they make you follow.

SWIM is a hardcore Atheist. Always has been.

SWIM has no clue what the hell he would do in those kind of meetings...

[chrisbx]

I think the fact that you feel so defensive may be a reflection on your own issues and beliefs. As I noted in my first comment swim was in a stimulating lifestyle for many years and understands the nature of addiction very well. I do not need a God to do my work.

If 12 steps works for you an others that is great but it is not a 'cure' there is no cure to be had just choices to make. You are focused on the destructive consequences of peoples action as a result of their drug use, the fact is that only a very small percentage of drug users let thier use become a problem to this extent.

[chemlove]

SWIM told me that Speed kills, literally. He said its insanity and that only the strongest of the strong survive its kick. Oh yea the comment about the junkie stealing your stuff and the tweaker taking your stuff and helping you look for it would be funny if it wasn't so damn true!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Zactly dude!

[manda]

"It takes and gives nothing back but the madness"...Cyndi, that was true, sad, and scary.

Reputation Comments on this post:

:)

[cyndi]

Originally Posted by manda

"It takes and gives nothing back but the madness"...Cyndi, that was true, sad, and scary.

It is and swim doesn't know.....she is getting a headache reading this thread. Do people here posting actually have tweaker experience? If one wants to believe the tweak is good, there is no changing their mind. MM you mean well but swiy should just drop it. Swiymm got the point across swim thinks, no use in beating a dead or tweaked out horse that is dying and doesn't know it yet.

PO swim could call herself an FBI agent on the board and noone really knows the truth right? She prefers to be real. Swiy could be a real cop, swim doesn't care. Whatever.

Is this DARE? LOL on that comment. Swim doesn't think so. Actually that was pretty funny.

[fnord]

limp letuce has ruined many a good salad,remember to keep it friendly guys,once again i suggest reading fight club, fuck the movie.the book explains things alot better

[psyche]

Another person who fails to read and heed my signature! Do you know what my stance on the legality of drugs is? I am 100% fully pro legalization. You also don't know anything about people in AA and NA or you wouldn't spout ignorant opinions like the one stated here, and you certainly don't know me so I'd appreciate you don't state my opinion for me.

I know that isn't my business, but how about responding to the arguments by pointing out what is wrong in them and representing yours and explaining it throughly. You are the one spouting ungrounded opinions. It's quite easy to say that 'you don't obviously know anything about this, because I'm right and you are of different opinion', but it isn't an argument. And how about answering to questions like the one MrG presented in the beginning of his post, instead of trying to pick something new to critisize. I think MrG knows you are pro-legalization, and I think by stating that people should be able to use any drug he is referring to a AA's attitude that any drug is evil.

You also ciritized my opinion about how technically meth doesn't make you do those things, altough it can blackmail you by making you feel like you've fallen to hell. As for the argument about me not having a lot of experience about the subject, I have to repeat myself: I don't think that makes my point less true. And as long as this sort of arguments are ok, 'you certainly don't know me so' you can't really say anything about my opinion.

[MrG]

Me no thinkee, me go fling poo at wall.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Being a smart ass will likely land you in a bad position on this forum. The admins don't like this sort of thing, trust...

[methMADMAN]

Originally Posted by MrG

Me no thinkee, me go fling poo at wall.

That was obvious to me from the very first post of yours I read

Originally Posted by hit12

The AA and 12 step programs have there place and work for some people.

Meth like all drugs illicit or leagal have dangers attached to their use, People need to be educated with facts in order that they can make informed choices of the risks they take in life.

OK, I can agree with both of the above statements.

Originally Posted by hit12

Addiction is not an illness that can not be cured. There is no evidence for this as an absolute.

Nothing is absolute, but there is a wealth of scientifically researched evidence that suggests the contrary.

[methMADMAN]

Drop it? Swim has far too much fun winning debates with actual knowlege.....[joke stolen from Henry Rollins] Kind of like punching out an 8 year old, satisfying, but nothing to make a career on.[/joke stolen from Henry rollins], but as long as people are going to spout ignorance I am going to try and bring them back to reality. Being armed an educted with the best contemporary medcal science available on the subject makes me rather a formiddable opponent, now doesn't it? Having people who know next ot nothing about addiction tell those who are addicted that they are just weak serves nobody, except the idiots that keep regurgitating their uneducated opinion. It also makes actual addicts think they can just get their control back and keeps them inside the viscous circle, and makes them feel all the more hopeless and worthless when they keep trying and keep failing. So on the one hand the uneducated feed the ignorance and on the other hand those with an actual problem get to die from it because nobody told them the truth in the first place? Nobody wins, in other words, so beyond it being fun to fight ignorance with knowlege and win arguments, I hope I might actually help someone.

You know it took me 170 posts to become a silver member, and part of it was an infraction from some bad advice, but most of it was just people either ignorant or in denial of this valuable information attacking me with bad reputation. Sad commentary on this board, as I was never anti drug, though just about anything perceived as anti drug can hurt you here. But knowing the truth about the bad side of drugs and telling it is not going to ever win me a popularity contest, and that's not what I am here for anyway. I am here to share what I know and learn from others. I have been doing both and enjoying this forum immensely.

[psyche]

Being armed an educted with the best contemporary medcal science available on the subject makes me rather a formiddable opponent, now doesn't it? Having people who know next ot nothing about addiction tell those who are addicted that they are just weak serves nobody, except the idiots that keep regurgitating their uneducated opinion.

Now, now. If you are a formiddable opponent, you propably don't need to advertise it, but people can conclude it from your posts and arguments. I haven't ever said that I don't consider addiction a disease. What I was saying that as long as you can control your body, meth has no way to force you to take more, it can only torture you, which in most cases results in taking more. People can experience incredible levels of pain with these things. That was my original point. Btw sentences like the latter of the quote are what make MrG draw his conclusions about you and your motives.

just about anything perceived as anti drug can hurt you here.

Disagree. As long as you have some reasonable arguments to back up your stance, no problem there.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Excellent post and something that MM seemed to have missed. We take exception to his arrogance not his argument. He repe...

[methMADMAN]

OK psyche, I probably misunderstood you, easy to do on a public opinion forum. I do appologize in any case.

But about the resonable arguments, well I've given them all along and I get back baseless, ignorant, and uneducated opinions repeated in different words over and over shoved back at me and told that their opinion is as good as mine, because they said so, so I am not buying that opinion.

Don't believe me, check this out "So if pot is so harmless.....?" I got repeatedly bitchslapped for daring to expess an alternate view.

Oh and if you are in the cannabis using forum and offer any opinion based on any study, make sure it was conducted by someone who studies have been done on proving they have no government influence at all, because those people take denial to new heights....Or perhaps it's paranoia, I am really not sure, perhaps it's both.

[psyche]

No need to apologize, all is cool. Can't say much about the reasonable arguments when I don't know the case exactly, but my experience has been that this is propably the best forum in regards to neutrality and accurate information, and it's main goal is harm reduction, so anti-drug stance shouldn't be too alien to this forum.

To be honest, I haven't yet encountered a study, that hadn't had clear methodological errors, but that I had to discard because it doesn't fit with my knowledge and other research. I'm not saying that there might not be such case, but there is plenty of independent research so there is no need to 'take chances'. Also many times the study has been done again and again reputing the original study showing radically different results. That's the point of peer-review-system in scientific literature. Yesterday I was reading a book Psychopharmacology of plants and herbs, which was up until then very accurate and well backed up. But then they were talking about hippocampal neuronal loss, actual neurotoxicity, which is so extreme that I had to check the study. Very fast I saw it was done in Washington and was funded by NIDA and such. The big downside was that it was done in vitro, not in living animal. Furthermore they applied ethanol to one brain and thc in ethanol to another; they might have different effects when combined. Then I read that in New Zealand they have done proper study to refute the aforementioned, finding no trace in damage in living animals. Ofcourse it is consistent with a really big body of scientific studies that fail to find neurotoxicity, so it really is quite clear case even if 1 study out of 50 found some damage.

What comes to the pot thread, they are making a good argument about alcohol in the very beginning. Alcohol has a lot more detrimental effect on brain and functioning, if someone should be able to punish his body with abusing alcohol, pot isn't anything comparable. I would see no problem in their usage.

Edit: Oh I completely forgot that the pot thread is where I recently took a look at the NIDA's info site. Must be all that second hand smoke, since this SWIM guy smokes weed. The info on the NIDA's site turned out to be if not 100% bullshit, very misinterpreted. Here's a link to the post: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...663#post300663

Reputation Comments on this post:

At least you can reason, not just stand your ground even when standing on quicksand.

[cyndi]

No don't take what swim said as disrespect mm, she agrees about everything you said. It just seemed some swiy was going back and forth with some that didn't seem to get it. It seems whomever got your point, took swim to shake it up, but you guys got there, cool. Yes definitely state your opinion as swim will hers. Meth is a destructive horrible drug and it does take and take and what does it give back? Maybe that is a question some should ponder.

Gotta admit the dare comment is funny still.

Reputation Comments on this post:

You rock lady!

[methMADMAN]

Originally Posted by cyndi

Gotta admit the dare comment is funny still.

No I never did take any offense, it's so easy to misunderstand each other when these discussions get heated and passionate and all you have is a keyboard and a screen for communication. But then if this was face to face I fear it would often get violent, with some of the people I see on here.

[cyndi]

LOL the violent comment. Yeah it may get ugly with a bunch of tweaks who think everything is ok till they run out. Well then you ain't seen ugly like a tweak with no tweak. Ugly and violent indeed.

Thinking more about the negative comment on this post, first swim has lots of experience in this area unfortunately and is not being arrogant or talking down to anyone. If one wants to live the insanity that is their choice. If one thinks tweak makes their life so damn wonderful, great. It is all about choices. However, telling people to give this drug a go is not wise in swim's opinion again. Swim knows too many people who this drug has destroyed. Swim battles addiction everyday and definitely is no saint and never said she was.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Or it could be little Johnny who's never touched tweak but takes offense at the arrogance of those who spout on about be...

[Fuzz]

Freaking awsome. ITs alll a gamble.That response is true.
As always the "NOW" knocks at your door.
Forget the slips
Let get me get glance of those lips.



a game a cards
playin poker at the round table.
all down like its a fable
what did you learn
where is your drive
social maniac
the next best thing
We chance the race

[apsychedelica]

dis·ease [di-zeez]noun, verb, -eased, -eas·ing. –noun 1.a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment. 2.any abnormal condition in a plant that interferes with its vital physiological processes, caused by pathogenic microorganisms, parasites, unfavorable environmental, genetic, or nutritional factors, etc. 3.any harmful, depraved, or morbid condition, as of the mind or society: His fascination with executions is a disease. 4.decomposition of a material under special circumstances: tin disease. –verb (used with object) 5.to affect with disease; make ill.
[Origin: 1300–50; ME disese < AF dese


-Dictionary.com

[Jiggles]

1.a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.

By this definition, alcoholism would be caused from an incorrectly functioning organ requiring them to be addicted to alcohol, a genetic disorder requiring them to be addicted to alcohol, or an unfavorable environmental factor requiring them to drink alcohol. Sure, putting the booze down may be hard, but if alcoholism truly were a disease, it seems scary to think that a disease can take full control of someone's body and force them to drink something.

And to methmadman- you make a lot of claims about how your arguments are supported by facts, medical entities, etc., but not ONCE have I seen you post anything worthwhile to back up your claims. It's always just a link to an about.com article or something similar. Me and SWIM are both genuinely curious as to if these claims can be backed up by a more reliable source. If you can post something proving your many points, please do and me and SWIM will shut up

[Codehead]

Yeah, sure meth or alcohol can make you violent and on addiction you might steal or so. But if some methhead kills (intentionally) somebody, then he really is a bad person, he was before meth and will be always. None drug will low your morals that much that you are able to kill someone.

[cyndi]

Originally Posted by Codehead

Yeah, sure meth or alcohol can make you violent and on addiction you might steal or so. But if some methhead kills (intentionally) somebody, then he really is a bad person, he was before meth and will be always. None drug will low your morals that much that you are able to kill someone.

Swim respectfully disagrees with you and she has lots of experience with it and fellow meth swimmers. She has a brother that has a life sentence in prison due to being on a meth binge for days and went on a shooting spree. That is all the detail she cares to share about that. She is usually very easy going but a real whacko after binging which is very unlike her. She doesn't know about disease vs. dependence. She does fiend more than with any other chem. and it is a bitch this she does know. Other users she knows has gotten extremely violent after a long binge. She doesn't know of a lot of casual users so couldn't say about that.

[Sky Walker]

Drugs can cause chemical imbalances in the brain, sometimes resulting in psychotic reactions, simple but amazingly complex.

[Alfa]

I'd steal it back and return it to the restaurant. I'd claim that I had just found it on the toilet. If I was not able to lie like that then I'd return it to the toilet and make sure no one would see me returning the jacket. Then I'd help your niece look for it. Karma bonus points!