Side effects - HPPD (flashbacks) from cannabis?

[Pitnicker]

I just thought I'd let you all know that I developed HPPD from smoking weed. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a catch-all medical term for having semi-permanent or permanenteffects from a drug (like those who have trails after taking acid or experience flashbacks of bad trips). I developed a field of colored static that overlays everything I see after my first month smoking weed regularly (almost three years ago). It's hard to describe, but when it's light out, I see a semi-transparent colored static over everything, sort of like the snow on television sets, only it is neon and multi-colored. It seems to follow the shapes of objects, taking on vertical or horizontal patterns. After I continued smoking regularly it grew stronger, and now that I smoke very irregularly it has not grown discernably weaker. When it's night out it seriously impairs my night vision (which used to be better than 20/20). I know it's weed that gave me the HPPD because it was the only drug I did at the time, and, interestingly, I have no lasting effects from other hallucinogens (like mushrooms, acid, or salvia). It doesn't bother me anymore except when I pay attention to it, and since I've had it for nearly three years now I can pretty much ignore it.


I haven't done much research but haven't really heard of anyone developing HPPD exclusively from weed. Does anyone else have lasting visual or auditory effects they can clearly attribute to weed? One can't really prove causation if they were taking copious amounts of acid at the same time as smoking. I guess it's not really surprising seeing as weed's classified as a hallucinogen, I was merely curious if anyone else had lasting visual effects from regular use of this drug.

[regicide]

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"I just thought I'd let you all know that I developed HPPD from smoking weed." scared the shit out of me at first considering i have no idea what HPPD is, and you didn't really explain that well except that you've done a drug and it weakens your vision.. of course it does, being used to a stone will obviously affect how your eyes interpuret reality. i don't have half the vision i used to.. ( i have a hard time seeing the crystal on buds when scopin =p) but yea other than, recently i've noticed my minds gotten a lot clearer (i still boag everyday, couple times a day)... i've just gotten over the "purple haze" my sober life has been... it's probably because of my tolerence, i dont get as high anymore, and not smoking weed just doesn't seem like a big deal. i guess you either have to smoke a lot of weed or none at all... GO BIG OR GO HOME</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[The_Great_Sage]

thats quite weird that i ran accross this thread because i recently started a thread to help find out what my friend was experiancing and it sounds remarkable similar to this so pitnicker if you would read the thread i started called "trippin?" and letme know or let everyone know if thats what it was

[Stingray_313]

Oh my god i might have that too. I had it temporarily a few nights ago
and was unable to read ANYTHING. It left about an hour after it started
so thats good. Are there any temporary forms of this? Im quite
concerned and would like to know.

[fiftyseven]

Perhaps a doctor might be able to help you out with that one. i bet it will go away if you stop taking drugs for about a year, if you smoke lots of pot, it can take quite a while for the metabolites to get out of your system. i seriously doubt that its HPPD, i think you are parinoid, and if you are really worried go to a doctor. maby your vision is just going to shit because you are getting older.

[bcStoner420]

Yes i find it highly unlikely anyone could develope HPPD from marijuana. There perhaps is a similar condition you can get from chronic marijuana use, but i doubt its actually HPPD. From what i thought this was confined to use of mainly hallucinogens.

[Nature Boy]

Originally Posted by Pitnicker

I just thought I'd let you all know that I developed HPPD from smoking weed. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a catch-all medical term for having semi-permanent or permanenteffects from a drug (like those who have trails after taking acid or experience flashbacks of bad trips). I developed a field of colored static that overlays everything I see after my first month smoking weed regularly (almost three years ago). It's hard to describe, but when it's light out, I see a semi-transparent colored static over everything, sort of like the snow on television sets, only it is neon and multi-colored. It seems to follow the shapes of objects, taking on vertical or horizontal patterns. After I continued smoking regularly it grew stronger, and now that I smoke very irregularly it has not grown discernably weaker. When it's night out it seriously impairs my night vision (which used to be better than 20/20). I know it's weed that gave me the HPPD because it was the only drug I did at the time, and, interestingly, I have no lasting effects from other hallucinogens (like mushrooms, acid, or salvia). It doesn't bother me anymore except when I pay attention to it, and since I've had it for nearly three years now I can pretty much ignore it.


I haven't done much research but haven't really heard of anyone developing HPPD exclusively from weed. Does anyone else have lasting visual or auditory effects they can clearly attribute to weed? One can't really prove causation if they were taking copious amounts of acid at the same time as smoking. I guess it's not really surprising seeing as weed's classified as a hallucinogen, I was merely curious if anyone else had lasting visual effects from regular use of this drug.

What you are describing is not HPPD. I have a smart buddy who explained to me that those little tin-foil sparkling dots that you sometimes see on a bright day are a result of how the blood cells in your eye lids are reflected by the light of the sun. This can even happen during the night, especially if you've just looked at a bright light. It's perfectly normal, just the eyes adjusting themselves. Most people can see this if they watch out for it, it's just that most people don't. I guess people who do drugs that are constantly looking out for psychedelic patterns and hallucination notice these little details more clearly. Proper HPPD comes only as a result of doing strong psychedelic drugs, mainly LSD. I've never really experienced proper HPPD with any other drug.

[doppey]

^^^ Thanks Bro. Myself and many others in my peer group have actually been wondering about this for a good many years. It perfectly normal and i haven't discussed it with anybody who hasn'y seen it. Except of course for a couple who didn't really notice it will i told them. They were pretty freaked out.
Peace

[GardenGrove]

i see that same thing, Pitnicker. but i never thought it was an effect from marijuana. at least i now know i'm not the only one who sees this! haha p

[daisyrocket]

SWIM got that same shit the first time he ever smoked. He blacked out for about a minute and when he came back too he was high and there were huge green and purple neon designs everywhere. By the time he came down he didn't notice them anymore. After this he decided to smoke every day and a couple months later it was there all the time. Not huge designs though, just the tv like neon colored static all over his visual field.

SWIM thought he was seeing the fabric of air or some bullshit like that.

Later when SWIM started playing with cid and shrooms he noticed alot of other things along with the static. About a year and a half later he was reading online and accidently ran in to an article on hppd. He nearly shit himself. It was spot on.

However, SWIM never really minded the visual impairment. He always thought it made his high more psychedelic and what not. Call him crazy, but to this day he still doesn't mind it.

Bottom line is SWIM would say that there is such a thing as a persisting perception disorder that could be attributed to pot. Maybe he's wrong.

[robo scat]

I see mild visual distortion every day. But I have a strong feeling thats its from past experiences with LSD and mushrooms. Things not directly in my line of vision appear to warp out of shape until I turn to look at them. I've gotten used to it, although sometimes it really catches me off guard.

[cosmicruler]

Originally Posted by Stingray_313

Oh my god i might have that too. I had it temporarily a few nights ago
and was unable to read ANYTHING. It left about an hour after it started
so thats good. Are there any temporary forms of this? Im quite
concerned and would like to know.

swim thinks its called 'being stoned'

[fiveleggedrat]

Swim1 and Swim2 both agree marijuana tinged visuals can persist after pot effects have long faded, tending to leave completely within a few days.

Swims call it "pot vision".

[Herbal Healer 019]

SWIM has the same effect on his vision ever since SWIM had used cannabis daily 4 close 2 a year exept with SWIM the residual effect has not faded even when abstaining from cannabis for close to a month and seems to get stronger the day after using cannabis while sober

[Jacco]

Originally Posted by bcStoner420

Yes i find it highly unlikely anyone could develope HPPD from marijuana. There perhaps is a similar condition you can get from chronic marijuana use, but i doubt its actually HPPD. From what i thought this was confined to use of mainly hallucinogens.

'scuse me, but you're wrong on too many levels for me to ignore.

1) Cannabis *is* a psychedelic drug.. closed-eye visuals are commonly reported from it, and it actually shares a mechanism of action with serotonergic psychedelics like LSD through CB1 activation (more on this later.)

2) There are a few case studies published (easy enough to search for and find at any university) that suggest that HPPD mainly occurs from cannabis in conjunction with a serotonergic agent.. for me weed became "trippy" when I got on the SSRI fluoxetine (prozac), leading to HPPD.. in another case study, a combination of shrooms and weed led to HPPD with DP (depersonalization) effects.

3) The paper in which Nichols described TCB-2 referenced a few useful articles saying that psychedelics like LSD work by activating 5-HT2A receptors coupled to an enzyme that cuts phospholipids into 2-AG (an endocannabinoid) and IP3 (a sugar used to measure LSD activity).. the fact that TCB-2 is not psychedelic at the doses predicted (see bluelight), and does NOT release 2-AG at those doses, points to cannabis being right in the middle of LSD's mind game.

Thank y'all for the read.

Treatment: I recommend clonazepam (under the discretion of a psychiatrist of course ) at 1mg on a 3-month course.. AVOID ANTIPSYCHOTICS, notably haloperidol or risperidone.

[Shampoo]

Very interesting and informative post, though I do believe you are mistaken here:

Originally Posted by Jacco

The paper in which Nichols described TCB-2 referenced a few useful articles saying that psychedelics like LSD work by activating 5-HT2A receptors coupled to an enzyme that cuts phospholipids into 2-AG (an endocannabinoid) and IP3 (a sugar used to measure LSD activity).. the fact that TCB-2 is not psychedelic at the doses predicted (see bluelight), and does NOT release 2-AG at those doses, points to cannabis being right in the middle of LSD's mind game.

G-Protein coupled receptors work through a myriad of various mechanisms, one of which is the PIP2 (Phosphatidylinositol 4,5-bisphosphate) pathway. Upon activation of a metabotropic receptor, PIP2 (the phospholipid you refer to) is enzymatically degraded to become IP3 (inositol triphosphate) and DAG (diacylglycerol), not 2-AG (2-AG is an endocannabinoid synthesized from fatty acids- a neurotransmitter, not a second messenger).

DAG activates PKC (protein kinase C) which begins the signal cascade, phosphorylating proteins and altering their activity- even opening and closing ion channels. IP3 moves to the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) where it induces the release of intracellular calcium stores- which may also act to alter ion channel activity and amplify the signal cascade.

While you are correct in saying that LSD acts as an agonist at 5-HT-2A receptors, which in turn activates the PIP2 second-messenger pathway, you are incorrect in stating that one of the direct products of this pathway is an endocannabinoid (eCB).

2-AG may be released as a result of increased PKC activity, which explains why AA and 2-AG are measures of 5-HT-2A/C activity in some respects, but this is a twice-removed measure of activity. I believe it would be farfetched to say that all psychedelic 5-HT-2A agonists result in 2-AG release.

Depolarization of the postsynaptic membrane by 5-HT-2A/C receptors has been shown to increase production and retrograde release of eCBs, however- including AD and 2-AG (see Connelly & Baggott, 2008. Also See DSI: Depolarization Induced Suppression of Inhibition- a mechanism by which depolarization of the postsynaptic cell induces suppression of presynaptically released GABA).

While there are some shared mechanisms between LSD and exogenous CB agonists (including ∆-9-THC), a 2-AG second-messenger pathway is not one of them. I'm not on my home computer right now, so dont have references for all the above immediately available- please do not hesitate to PM me if you would like further clarification or references.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nicely put, right on the money! Bird-fro-woman would be proud, haha

[Jacco]

Thanks for the clarification -- it's been a while since I looked at the article, so I wasn't sure.

As to 2-AG being responsible for the primary effects of serotonergic psychedelics, I agree it's a little farfetched. Essentially, I was basing my claim on a bluelight post from a relatively reputable member who found a threshold of psychedelic action for TCB-2 at 1.5mg -- far above what the Ki values Nichols reported would suggest an active dosage be. Then again, Ki isn't everything, as I often forget!

Endocannabinoids serve as "modulators" of activity in the brain, leading to their trademark paradoxical effects, right? So would CB1 release activate 5-HT2A? This seems unlikely, so how would 5-HT2A effect neurons with cannabinoid inputs? (Presumably making them hypersensitive, causing HPPD)..

I'll have to take a look at the Connelly and Baggott article you mentioned and try to form a new theory. All I really know for certain after all is that each time I smoke the visuals are far above baseline. I'm glad to meet another member interested in pharmacology!

[coelho]

This effect is called "Visual Snow"... this is what Wikipedia says about this:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Visual snow is a transitory or persisting visual symptom where people see snow or television-like static in parts or the whole of their visual fields, especially against dark backgrounds.
The severity or density of the "snow" differs from one person to the next; in some circumstances, it can inhibit a person's daily life, making it difficult to read, see in detail and focus correctly.
There are different causes for visual snow, i.e. visual snow is non-specific.

(...)

Another possible cause of visual snow is hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD) following use of LSD, MDMA, psilocybin or other hallucinogenic psychedelic drugs. In HPPD, the symptom of visual snow has been described as aeropsia (literally "seeing the air"). HPPD can occur after a single dose of a psychedelic drug and with a considerable latency between last drug intake and onset of persistent perception disorder, so taking a thorough life-time drug history is mandatory in the diagnostic work-up of visual snow. In many cases, the neurological action for HPPD is not known, and the majority of evidence surrounding it is anecdotal and difficult to isolate.