Spiritual - Transcendental Meditation vs LSD

[Niteflights]

I just finished reading David Lynch's book 'Catching the big Fish, meditation consciousness and creativity'. In it Lynch somewhat convincingly argues that transcendental meditation is categorically superior to drugs as a conduit towards expanding consciousness.

This reminds me of Grof's Holotropics breath-work which is a non chemical means towards reaching the same states. Although I have attended breathwork workshops and performed some limited breathwork, I never felt that the technique opened the doors that the psychoactives did for me. Although Grof is rather vague on the subject, he seems to suggest during question and answer sessions that LSD is still preferable to Holotropics, when and if available.

I suppose a major difference is Grof has staked his career on LSD while Lynch is an artist (filmmaker at that, can't go around like loaded Mick Jaeger).

I once heard David Bowie say "once a coke-head, always a coke-head". It is known that John Lennon stayed close to drugs throughout his artistically creative life.

What I wonder is if anyone has (or knows of someone who has) switched entirely off of psychoactive chemicals onto more holistic methods such as transcendental meditation, and retrieves the same or better mind expanding capacities without the "side effects of drugs", as Lynch would say.

looking for insights,
Niteflights

[eltimmy]

What are the "side effects" of LSD that bother Lynch?

I have read some of his comments. He seems to generalize all drug use as leading one down a negative path of addiction and mental destruction. In a word, nonsense.

Good movies though!

In any case: Meditation produces effects drugs will not usually produce. Drugs usually produces effects meditation will not produce.

[eltimmy]

>
I once heard David Bowie say "once a coke-head, always a coke-head". It is known that John Lennon stayed close to drugs throughout his artistically creative life.

Alan Moore (IMO, a true creative visionary) is known to take psilocybin mushrooms occasionally, and alludes to heavy LSD use in his youth. He speaks of the creative work, and magickal ritual performed with the aid of psilocybin ... but it also seems most of his work is done in sobriety.

Your examples are only that, examples. These drugs are tools -- it is up to SWIY to define your own modality of use -- especially in the absence of qualities of dependence.

Cocaine and psychedelics are not even comparable.

[mr. strawberry]

i personally dont buy it. I see it as the same thing. the top of the mountian is the top of the mountian and drugs (such as lsd) are just transportation to get there. there are other means to reach that peak, such as meditation but In my opinion the end result is the same. See "Island" by huxley

[Heretic.Ape.]

A few things that may be interesting to look at:
"Drugs & Mysticism: An Analysis of the Relationship between Psychedelic Drugs and Mystical Consciousness" By Walter M Pahkne, Harvard University, 1963
Discusses similarity between states obtained via drugs vs classic "mystical" experiences. If I remember correctly the team of analysts couldn't discern between reports from the two.

The serotonergic system and mysticism: Could LSD and the non drug-induced mystical experience share common neural mechanisms
Examines the issue from a neurological perspective.

[eltimmy]

>In my opinion the end result is the same

Except, SWIM largely doesn't take LSD and mushrooms for "religious" purposes. Many do not. There are other uses -- therapeutic, problem-solving, brainwashing, creative ...

Your simplified idea of the human mind is silly. Psychedelics have been used for as many purposes as the human mind can naturally direct itself ...

Does meditation give intensified associational response to the physical objects SWIM perceives around him, without having to direct concentration elsewhere? No.

They are different.

>the top of the mountain is the top of the mountain

Claptrap.

There are always things to learn. There are always subjectivities. There are always differing opinions -- the beauty of human consciousness.

[mr. strawberry]

You forgot to copy the most important part. it goes "in my opinion..."
can LSD be used for brainwashing purposes? you bet your ass it can. Fortunatly, I don't see it used for that purpose except maybe in some cults.

As for intensified associational responces to physical objects around him (or her) yeah theres no denying that LSD has an affect, but can you argue that meditation does not? That's one of the reasons people use that form of meditation, to be at one with everything.

Ok, so while meditationg, the walls are not breathing and the celing is not dripping and I know lots of people who take LSD to get those affects and they do other things (like drink) to blur the line so they don't have to have to deal with those intense thoughts LSD is famous for forcing upon its users. But someone who starts a thread about similarities and differences between meditation and LSD is likely to be someone who seeks an inner journey and is thoughtful enough to want to approach the subject carefully and maturely.
LSD as a means for therapy: How is this different then meditation? IN MY OPINION, that is the reason one meditates, to understand himself or herself better, and ultimatly the world and universe. They are the same thing, simpily different roads. Yes, there is always more to learn about oneself and ones world, but its the same mountian being explored.

I think George Harrison is a good example of someone who saw the similarities and used them both to his advantage to be at one for himself. His lyrics in songs like "within you without you" practically scream it in their mellow way.

Again, this is my opinion from everything i have ever read about a chemical I have never used, so take my thoughts to heart or laugh at them, i don't care.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good post

[Niteflights]

I can think of a few basic qualities which make TM and meditation a more practical long term solution than psychedelics for reaching mystical states:

1. No perceptual distortions that make functioning in corporeal reality more difficult. It would be difficult to show up for work every day with the walls dripping and the elves singing, especially if your work is a complex creative task such as directing a crew or working with other musicians.

2. LSD can only be used only on an infrequent basis to achieve mystical states because of tolerance. Also once your are tripping you are committed for 8 hours or so. If you do it later in the evening you will sacrifice normal sleep. Achieving a mystical state through meditation is completely controlled by the meditator. It can be done as frequently and as long or short as one likes. Lynch discusses using it twice daily for 20 minutes for the past 30 years. It does not interfere with day to day activities but rather enhances them.

3. Meditation does not trigger psychosis or delusional states in some users, at least not nearly to the degree that LSD or psychedelics can. This can be testified to by the successful practice of TM by thousands of school children in the David Lynch foundations TM programs.

4. TM can be used by small children as well as adults. LSD is somewhat dangerous with small children.

5. Meditation is free and you can never run out of sources or get into legal trouble.

All in all it seems to me that the evidence points to meditation to be a more sound practice for lifelong enhancement of consciousness and creativity. I love LSD also.

cheers,
Niteflights

[rcparker]

Originally Posted by Niteflights

I can think of a few basic qualities which make TM and meditation a more practical long term solution than psychedelics for reaching mystical states:>

These are a series of stawman arguments which all appear to be based on the false premise that it is an either/or choice between meditation and psychedelics. Clearly this is nonsense as a huge number of people engage in both.

1. (…) It would be difficult to show up for work every day with the walls dripping and the elves singing,

It is equally difficult to spend one's workday with one's eyes closed while allowing a mantra to repeat itself. Nobody is suggesting that one should spend one's workday while tripping and the suggestion is equally ludicrous as spending one's work life constantly engaging in TM. Just as you shouldn’t spend your workday with your eyes closed meditating, you shouldn’t spend it tripping either.

2. LSD can only be used only on an infrequent basis to achieve mystical states because of tolerance. Also once your are tripping you are committed for 8 hours or so. If you do it later in the evening you will sacrifice normal sleep.

While this may be true of LSD, it is not true of all psychedelics.

Achieving a mystical state through meditation is completely controlled by the meditator.

Not even *vaguely* true. “Mystical states” are a semi-rare byproduct of meditation and tend to only happen after years of practice. Certainly they are not under the “complete control” of any but highly advanced meditators.

Lynch discusses using it twice daily for 20 minutes for the past 30 years. It does not interfere with day to day activities but rather enhances them.

If one chose to do so, one could immerse one’s self in “mystical states” for 20 minutes twice daily for 30 years using psychedelics like 5-MeO-DMT.

3. Meditation does not trigger psychosis or delusional states in some users, at least not nearly to the degree that LSD or psychedelics can.

Again this appears to be a false argument. The government's own study of the relationship between LSD and psychosis found no identifiable link between psychosis (or similar long lasting mental disorder) and LSD use in people who didn’t have pre-existing psychological disorders or a strong predisposition to psychosis. I don’t have the details handy but can find them if it is important to anyone.

It is also important to realize that the “TM movement” tried to ignore and/or under-report “adverse psychological reactions” in their early research. I don’t know if this trend has continued. In any event, some people do develop problems from meditation, although I doubt that full-blown psychosis develops in a significant number of them. Again, I can dig up the details if it is important to anyone.

The idea that psychedelics are more likely to make you “crazy” appears to be wholly without scientific evidence or substantiation.

4. TM can be used by small children as well as adults. LSD is somewhat dangerous with small children.

I grant you this one without any argument. I believe that children shouldn’t be exposed to psychedelics but have personally taught many children to meditate.

5. Meditation is free and you can never run out of sources or get into legal trouble.

TM charges substantial fees to learn their meditation method. As do many other groups. There are currently a number of non-scheduled plants and substances that can be employed and growing such plants is a relative inexpensive endeavor. There *are* countries in which you can get into legal trouble for meditating. Seems like there are always people telling other folks what they are allowed to do with their minds.

Warm Regards,
Ryan

[sunyata]

One big difference between TM and LSD is that people who meditate are usually commited to what they are doing, it takes some discipline to sit still for even 20min every day for years to achieve the desired effect. Anyone can eat a piece of paper.

From what I understand it takes a long time before you start to experience effects comparable to psychedelics, and usually there is a teacher/guru guiding them through this. That means they are more prepared and have gradually built up to that level, unlike someone who just suddenly finds himself "there".

And although I think one can reach some of the same intellectual, emotional and spiritual insights from both I think it's foolish to compare them like that.
Sure, for a less enlightened individual who would just take a couple of hits because he's heard it makes him see crazy things, it might be better to go the TM route. But for someone who knows what he's doing LSD might offer other things.
One of them is that it is an ordeal. If you take a full strong dose of the classical psychedelics and come through it alright or better, you know you have done something special, perhaps not uncommon, but special nonetheless. It is a serious test of your integrity.
Transcendental meditation has more to do with endurance and is an entirely different discipline from psychedelic shamanism/mysticism/hedonism/etc.