A sense of Time

[Shiacmkmleer]

Ok Swis did some basic searching but he still isn't sure.

In SwiYs opinion what drug make SwiY feel like time doesnt exist?

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Lots of drugs make a person stop paying attention to time or lose track of it or make it move slower or faster.What exactly does swiy mean?

[meep]

Most drugs do this. Only with Psychedelic's does swim look at the time and not understand what it means or how to interpret it though, essentially making time not exist. Is that an answer your looking for? Maybe be a bit more specific on what your asking.

[tayo]

I believe he means a time dilation effect (20 minutes can seem like 30 seconds and vice versa). And that would be with psychedelics.

[Shiacmkmleer]

Originally Posted by tayo

I believe he means a time dilation effect (20 minutes can seem like 30 seconds and vice versa). And that would be with psychedelics.

Sorry for not being specific. No Swis has taken a lot of drugs that change the perception of time (hours seeming like weeks) He was asking if anyone had ever taken a drug that eliminate your percetion of time compleatly.

[tayo]

Well, then I would say that anything where you can't remember something that happened, that eliminates time completely. Amnesia from benzos, alcohol, datura (dont do this by the way), and probably other barbs.

[xeysz]

this is SWIM without drugs. time makes no sense.. they say it is a unit of measurement, but SWIM will deny this. if it is a unit of measurement how come everything must revolve around it? how can SWIU be late if it is only used to measure? why is there no difference between 30 sec and 30 min late? time is used to control the majority by forming schedules, etc. time was fine as a unit to organize memory.

and while life is routine (which is true for everyone, whether SWIY will accept this is not up to SWIM, but there are some concepts such as hope, time, etc to make us believe it) then what good is time? for instance if today was the same as yesterday then tomorrow will be no different.

the philosophy was it, Blaise Pascal's Pensees has this all figured out.

Won't face this day and I won't care now,
the sunrise promises nothing new

Everyday is the same
when looking straight ahead
Caught in the safety of routine
I lose myself again
And if only for a moment do I
truly feel this way,
then suddenly it all becomes
something of worth to me

Won't face this day and I won't care now,
the sunrise promises nothing new
And here I will stay with four walls round
my heart in a room that won't betray

Now that I've gone too far,
this escape has caught up with me
Everyone's gone
They all realized that I stopped caring
so long ago that today
was only taken for granted
And tomorrow's just one more
that I believe I deserve

Won't face this day and I won't care now,
the sunrise promises nothing new
And here I will stay with four walls round
my heart in a room that won't betray

Spent too many hours in this room,
leaving the world outside my door
In failed attempts to forget about,
being frustrated to myself

Won't face this day and I won't care now,
the sunrise promises nothing new

One last time
I will watch the sun
go down from this window
And I won't wait for a better day
to walk from
all it ever was that I
had given up on this road
One last step
and I will soon be gone








don't wanna waste time
is it a matter of mind
don't wanna lose control
i've gotta say goodbye
we just couldn't get it right
it was a matter of time
all i wanted was to stay there in your arms
but when the door opened i had to say goodbye
and i knew that it was not our fate
but i waited all those years to hear you say "i always loved you, only you"
i knew that it was just too late
mine to the end no
though i still have dreams of you and i together again
i can't afford to lie
i have to say goodbye
we didn't know the future but we did what was right.

[Metomni]

Salvia does this in SWIM's experience. 5 minutes feels not just like weeks or months, but like you're still there even after you come back. Like a part of you is forever in a state of timelessness and confusion.

[xeysz]

Originally Posted by Metomni

Salvia does this in SWIM's experience. 5 minutes feels not just like weeks or months, but like you're still there even after you come back. Like a part of you is forever in a state of timelessness and confusion.

SWIM just finished watching Waking Life and The Matrix both for the first time. SWIM likes this and is interested in Salvia.

[lostmente]

dxm is very effective at dilating time. Even to the point of slowing peoples voices down...tho the time that this happened, swims trip companions voices were normal and the sober people around had slow voices

lostmente added 2 Minutes and 11 Seconds later...

swim imagines ketamine would also do this, but one can mess with perception of time based on the 'gravity' one can place on an event. swim believes this based on the give-take nature of the moment.

the more you put into something outside you, the thinner you are and so the longer it feels. The more you acquire from something, the more of you there is to impress?

[sylenth]

heavy doses of lsd helps to throw your sense of time out. time feels longer but the key is not to pay attention to time & try guessing it & getting surprised by the time when it gets dark etc... smurf does'nt wear a watch or watch the time & life's fun that way. paying attention to where the sun & moon is in the sky is fun when you get to know the position it is from where you are, you do'nt need a watch then. lol.

[Nature Boy]

LSD, DOB, psilocybin, ketamine.

[Stationary Traveller]

Even the good old cannabis does this to swim, because swim is notoriously lightweight when it comes to pot. Most of my high I am astounded by how long time seems to take to pass. Yesterday swim and friend were doing low-shutter-speed photo shots around the campus and the 25-second timer would just take for ever to click. Swim is used to the sensation now, but that doesn't mean it went away, I'm just used to having longer seconds than the average folk

On another note, swim is afraid that these elongated seconds will be compensated for with a terminal illness further down the road, and hopes that it never happens.

[Felix Guattari]

Back when SWiM first started smoking cannabis he remembers experiencing some of the most fascinating changes in his perception of time. Moments would freeze, expand, contract and seem to 'shatter' into discrete-but-eternal 'pieces'... thems were the days..

Cannabinoids seem to do that, particularly CB1 ligands, it would seem to stand to reason. The more potent the ligand the better; every report I've read on cp-55,940 seems to mention severe time dilation. Cannabinoid-mediated chronomodulation (I know this word isn't usually used to refer to subjective effects, but I was searching for something more broad than the usual 'time dilation') seems pretty distinct from the feelings of atemporality brought on by drugs like DMT, DPT or salvia though. I suspect though that such feelings are indissociable from the powerful feelings of ego-dissolution that such substances are wont to produce. Dissasociatives tend to do the same thing for what I suspect are similar reasons.

I think xeyzs hit the metaphorical nail on the equally metaphorical head in suggesting a link between time and human activity/routine; psychedelics disrupt so intensely our conception of time because they disrupt so intensely our unconscious processes of expectation, identification and routine, all of which are products of our concern for our world. If you really, truly don't care, then what is time?

Sorry to go all philosophical mumbo-jumbo there.

Here's a cool video on subjective time distortion effects though. If this is the one I'm thinking of its got some neat stuff on the effect of drugs on the perception of time in rodents.

[nikky36]

LSD makes one feel like time has stopped,one trip can last what feels like a lifetime..................

[xeysz]

The thing about time is that so many parts of the brain revolve around it and we seem to depend on it. So time is involved in many philosophies & theories, and it's only obvious that many drugs would affect SWIY's perception of time. Someone could take anything and pull a really nice reference to time out of it.

We all could go on for a long time about this.

It's cool when I think about something and then end up reading the exact ideas in some praised theory on Wikipedia. It happens somewhat often too. Haven't read that time article yet, looks pretty interesting. I'll watch the video too. I guess that even apathy could affect how we see time.

It'll be interesting to read what SWIM has typed on here later.

[Felix Guattari]

xeyz: Check out Heidegger as well, though his wiki page ain't that amazing.

Heidegger (called an 'existentialist' by some, whatever the hell that means) does an analysis of various ways of human be-ing and suggests, in the end, that time is structured by various sorts of human care or concern ('Sorge' in German). This care is what connects us to, and thus constructs, our world. What our 'cares' (and thus activities) are is determined by our past, i.e., what I value is determined by my history, and what I value opens up a world of future possibilities to me.

One might say then, that by playing with our 'care', that is, our understanding of our need, hopes, wishes and desires, the very relations which determine our relation to our past, future and activity, psychedelics can wreak havoc in our resulting perception of time.

This involves something of an embarrassing oversimplification of Heidegger's elegant, sinewy logic, but I think I caught something like meaning there.

[Euthanatos93420]

Originally Posted by Metomni

Salvia does this in SWIM's experience. 5 minutes feels not just like weeks or months, but like you're still there even after you come back. Like a part of you is forever in a state of timelessness and confusion.

Well said and agreed. They didn't use the word Divine in the name because it tasted so good thats for sure.

[psyche]

This is very familiar feeling with most of the experimenters of psycedelics, including yours truly, SWIM. When the gates of perception are opened wide open, the time seems to stand still while everything flows and transmutates constantly. SWIM doesn't think this is illusion, but rather that time itself is more of an illusion as an absolute foundation of universe.

Here, is interesting article about the scientifical foundations of time:

Newsflash: Time May Not Exist

Not to mention the question of which way it goes...
by Tim Folger published online June 12, 2007

No one keeps track of time better than Ferenc Krausz. In his lab at the Max Planck Institute of Quantum Optics in Garching, Germany, he has clocked the shortest time intervals ever observed. Krausz uses ultraviolet laser pulses to track the absurdly brief quantum leaps of electrons within atoms. The events he probes last for about 100 attoseconds, or 100 quintillionths of a second. For a little perspective, 100 attoseconds is to one second as a second is to 300 million years.
But even Krausz works far from the frontier of time. There is a temporal realm called the Planck scale, where even attoseconds drag by like eons. It marks the edge of known physics, a region where distances and intervals are so short that the very concepts of time and space start to break down. Planck time—the smallest unit of time that has any physical meaning—is 10-43 second, less than a trillionth of a trillionth of an attosecond. Beyond that? Tempus incognito. At least for now.
Efforts to understand time below the Planck scale have led to an exceedingly strange juncture in physics. The problem, in brief, is that time may not exist at the most fundamental level of physical reality. If so, then what is time? And why is it so obviously and tyrannically omnipresent in our own experience? “The meaning of time has become terribly problematic in contemporary physics,” says Simon Saunders, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford. “The situation is so uncomfortable that by far the best thing to do is declare oneself an agnostic.”

The trouble with time started a century ago, when Einstein’s special and general theories of relativity demolished the idea of time as a universal constant. One consequence is that the past, present, and future are not absolutes. Einstein’s theories also opened a rift in physics because the rules of general relativity (which describe gravity and the large-scale structure of the cosmos) seem incompatible with those of quantum physics (which govern the realm of the tiny). Some four decades ago, the renowned physicist John Wheeler, then at Princeton, and the late Bryce DeWitt, then at the University of North Carolina, developed an extraordinary equation that provides a possible framework for unifying relativity and quantum mechanics. But the Wheeler-*DeWitt equation has always been controversial, in part because it adds yet another, even more baffling twist to our understanding of time.

“One finds that time just disappears from the Wheeler-DeWitt equation,” says Carlo Rovelli, a physicist at the University of the Mediterranean in Marseille, France. “It is an issue that many theorists have puzzled about. It may be that the best way to think about quantum reality is to give up the notion of time—that the fundamental description of the universe must be timeless.”

No one has yet succeeded in using the Wheeler-DeWitt equation to integrate quantum theory with general relativity. Nevertheless, a sizable minority of physicists, Rovelli included, believe that any successful merger of the two great masterpieces of 20th-century physics will inevitably describe a universe in which, ultimately, there is no time.

The possibility that time may not exist is known among physicists as the “problem of time.” It may be the biggest, but it is far from the only temporal conundrum. Vying for second place is this strange fact: The laws of physics don’t explain why time always points to the future. All the laws—whether Newton’s, Einstein’s, or the quirky quantum rules—would work equally well if time ran backward. As far as we can tell, though, time is a one-way process; it never reverses, even though no laws restrict it.
“It’s quite mysterious why we have such an obvious arrow of time,” says Seth Lloyd, a quantum mechanical engineer at MIT. (When I ask him what time it is, he answers, “Beats me. Are we done?”) “The usual explanation of this is that in order to specify what happens to a system, you not only have to specify the physical laws, but you have to specify some initial or final condition.”
The mother of all initial conditions, Lloyd says, was the Big Bang. Physicists believe that the universe started as a very simple, extremely compact ball of energy. Although the laws of physics themselves don’t provide for an arrow of time, the ongoing expansion of the universe does. As the universe expands, it becomes ever more complex and disorderly. The growing disorder—physicists call it an increase in entropy—is driven by the expansion of the universe, which may be the origin of what we think of as the ceaseless forward march of time.



Time, in this view, is not something that exists apart from the universe. There is no clock ticking outside the cosmos. Most of us tend to think of time the way Newton did: “Absolute, true and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably, without regard to anything external.” But as Einstein proved, time is part of the fabric of the universe. Contrary to what Newton believed, our ordinary clocks don’t measure something that’s independent of the universe. In fact, says Lloyd, clocks don’t really measure time at all.
“I recently went to the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Boulder,” says Lloyd. (NIST is the government lab that houses the atomic clock that standardizes time for the nation.) “I said something like, ‘Your clocks measure time very accurately.’ They told me, ‘Our clocks do not measure time.’ I thought, Wow, that’s very humble of these guys. But they said, ‘No, time is defined to be what our clocks measure.’ Which is true. They define the time standards for the globe: Time is defined by the number of clicks of their clocks.”
Rovelli, the advocate of a timeless universe, says the NIST timekeepers have it right. Moreover, their point of view is consistent with the Wheeler-DeWitt equation. “We never really see time,” he says. “We see only clocks. If you say this object moves, what you really mean is that this object is here when the hand of your clock is here, and so on. We say we measure time with clocks, but we see only the hands of the clocks, not time itself. And the hands of a clock are a physical variable like any other. So in a sense we cheat because what we really observe are physical variables as a function of other physical variables, but we represent that as if everything is evolving in time.


“What happens with the Wheeler-DeWitt equation is that we have to stop playing this game. Instead of introducing this fictitious variable—time, which itself is not observable—we should just describe how the variables are related to one another. The question is, Is time a fundamental property of reality or just the macroscopic appearance of things? I would say it’s only a macroscopic effect. It’s something that emerges only for big things.”By “big things,” Rovelli means anything that exists much above the mysterious Planck scale. As of now there is no physical theory that completely describes what the universe is like below the Planck scale. One possibility is that if physicists ever manage to unify quantum theory and general relativity, space and time will be described by some modified version of quantum mechanics. In such a theory, space and time would no longer be smooth and continuous. Rather, they would consist of discrete fragments—quanta, in the argot of physics—just as light is composed of individual bundles of energy called photons. These would be the building blocks of space and time. It’s not easy to imagine space and time being made of something else. Where would the components of space and time exist, if not in space and time?
As Rovelli explains it, in quantum mechanics all particles of matter and energy can also be described as waves. And waves have an unusual property: An infinite number of them can exist in the same location. If time and space are one day shown to consist of quanta, the quanta could all exist piled together in a single dimensionless point. “Space and time in some sense melt in this picture,” says Rovelli. “There is no space anymore. There are just quanta kind of living on top of one another without being immersed in a space.”
Rovelli has been working with one of the world’s leading mathematicians, Alain Connes of the College of France in Paris, on this notion. Together they have developed a framework to show how the thing we experience as time might emerge from a more fundamental, timeless reality. As Rovelli describes it, “Time may be an approximate concept that emerges at large scales—a bit like the concept of ‘surface of the water,’ which makes sense macroscopically but which loses a precise sense at the level of the atoms.”
Realizing that his explanation may only be deepening the mystery of time, Rovelli says that much of the knowledge that we now take for granted was once considered equally perplexing. “I realize that the picture is not intuitive. But this is what fundamental physics is about: finding new ways of thinking about the world and proposing them and seeing if they work. I think that when Galileo said that the Earth was spinning crazily around, it was utterly incomprehensible in the same manner. Space for Copernicus was not the same as space for Newton, and space for Newton was not the same as space for Einstein. We always learn a little bit more.”
Einstein, for one, found solace in his revolutionary sense of time. In March 1955, when his lifelong friend Michele Besso died, he wrote a letter consoling Besso’s family: “Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”
Rovelli senses another temporal breakthrough just around the corner. “Einstein’s 1905 paper came out and suddenly changed people’s thinking about space-time. We’re again in the middle of something like that,” he says. When the dust settles, time—whatever it may be—could turn out to be even stranger and more illusory than even Einstein could imagine.



This was posted on the forum somewhere, but can't find it. It is published at least in Discover -magazine, but not sure if it would be commercial source, so no link for this one.