What dose of 4-aco-DMT is best comparable to 1/8th of an ounce of good dried shrooms?

[Nacumen]

I'm referring to any of the popular kinds of shrooms. I realize that this request is vague, but I'm not famililar with the different kinds of shrooms so I'm only looking for whatever SWIY can give me on an estimate. I also realize that a 4-aco-DMT experience is not the same as a psilocin/psilocybin shroom experience, but please try to work with me here Furthermore, SWIM doesn't know what kind of shrooms are popular in his area, otherwise he would just use them for comparison.

Thanks a bunch guys, I really appreciate it.

[Beeker]

For SWIM around 30mg, but SWIM has a tolerance to trypamines

[JDreaming]

This is a very difficult question to answer because of the noted and vast differences, but I think I will try...

1/8th ounce of dried psilocybin cubensis is equal to 3.5 grams, which is considered a moderate to high dose by most people.

4-AcO-DMT has no entry on erowid (aside from experience reports) or in Tikhal, but according to a wikipedia article:

"A dose of O-acetylpsilocin is 8 mg - 30 mg. These are slightly lower than that of the free phenol, psilocin. Some report very strong effects with 15 mg. The duration of 4-acetylpsilocin is usually slightly longer than that of psilocin at about 4-7 hours."
(Reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-AcO-DMT)

If this information is accurate (and I know Wikipedia is by no means 100% accurate) a moderate to high dose of 4-AcO-DMT would probably be in the range of 15-20mg (if 8mg is starting dose and 15 is "very stong for some").

SWIM wants you to know, though, that he is no expert on this subject and has never tried pure 4-AcO-DMT himself, so he cannot guarantee that this dosage would produce the effect that SWIY may be looking for.

[eltimmy]

Most people SWIM knows got great results from 14-18 mg. 20-24 mg were reported as stronger and longer-lasting than many eighth-ounce mushroom batches experiences by these fellows.

As Beeker notes, tolerance to these drugs can vary a good deal from individual to individual.

SWIM has had a lot of productive fun working with very low, threshold doses of this chemical. New story ideas, opened empathy, pretty visuals in the mind's eye, unusually clever thought patterns ...

[grandbaby]

A report from last autumn placed a 23mg experience far above 1/8 of shrooms. A long, difficult and very heavy trip (which was nonetheless valuable) that would have been extraordinary had set and setting been better.

As with every drug - but especially little-known chemicals - best to find your own optimum level by beginning with a sub-threshold dose (first to find out if 1. you received the chem you think you did, and not something stronger, and 2. to rule out any allergies/idiosyncratic overreactions) and then increasing the dose gradually until one's optimum level is achieved. Anything else is Russian roulette ... Chechnyan roulette!

[Beeker]

SWIM has had a constant supply of Cubensis for 15 years as well. 30 grams wet cubensis has, at the very least, four 4-po, 4-ho-XXX tryptamines as well as chemicals that are not considered orally active. One cannot forget about baeocystin, which is a demethylated derivative of psilocybin.

Psilocin will never have the experience of "shrooms" ... this isn't a bad thing in SWIMsHO it's just different. 5 second logic makes the average psychonaut think 4-aco-dmt will be like powdered/pure shrooms and this is not the case.

This has been the rule of thumb for dried shrooms for a while.

• 1 gram dried cubensis = 10mg psilocybin and psilocin
• 2 grams dried cubensis - 20mg psilocybin and psilocin
• 3.5 grams = 35mg psilocybin and psilocin
• 5 grams= 50mg psilocybin and psilocin

25 to 50 milligrams of psilocybin/psilocin is considered a heavy dose in most medical journals so 30mg isn't that far off.

There is loads of misinformation out there and many people, who have never even done shrooms over 5 grams or tried a chemical will swear they know the answers for some reason. Just like LSD on blotter, two month old dried shrooms will be weak and dealers never store them correctly. An 1/8th of shrooms sold on the black market is always going to be missing 10mg from age. SWIMs never seen a dealer vacuum seal shrooms.

SWIM just wanted to throw that out there.

Reputation Comments on this post:

valuable insights

[samadhi_smiles]

Strassman said at 35mg psilocybin (which is equivalent to what around 28-30mg psilocin) produces very strong experiences where the person undergoing the experience is 'out of contact' with the observers unless roused from the state with repeated attempts of communication. Then they are usually heavily disoriented.

10mg of psilocin (4-HO-DMT) was stronger than 14mg of 4-AcO-DMT. Psilocin seems generally stronger than 4-AcO-DMT.

Just clearing up a few falsities above lest someone think 20-30mg of 4-HO-DMT is a normal dose (this level would be appropriate for very deep and personal trips in a VERY secure setting).

[Beeker]

Originally Posted by samadhi_smiles

Strassman said at 35mg psilocybin (which is equivalent to what around 28-30mg psilocin) produces very strong experiences where the person undergoing the experience is 'out of contact' with the observers unless roused from the state with repeated attempts of communication. Then they are usually heavily disoriented.

10mg of psilocin (4-HO-DMT) was stronger than 14mg of 4-AcO-DMT. Psilocin seems generally stronger than 4-AcO-DMT.

Just clearing up a few falsities above lest someone think 20-30mg of 4-HO-DMT is a normal dose (this level would be appropriate for very deep and personal trips in a VERY secure setting).

remember to add in the weight of a fumurate salt over hcl as well.

SWIM is also only on a source of 4-aco-dmt that is SWIMS 'first' so there that is. SWIM might have been sent something old.

SWIM loves fresh shrooms blended in OJ ... but that's just SWIM.

[mictihtoya]

Beeker, what samadhi said directly contradicted what you were saying about the psilocybin/psilocin levels in dried mushrooms. Thirty five milligrams is a high dose of psilocybin, and if its effects are like Strassman described then you'd be lucky to find 35mg in 3.5 grams of dried Psilocybe azurescens/cyanescens. P. cubensis would be lucky to contain 35mg in 10 grams dry. D.M. Turner estimates dried P. cubensis contains around 3mg psilocybin/psilocin per gram.

[chimera]

SWIM just tried 4-aco-dmt for the first time, trying to get that 1/8 of shrooms effect. He tried out 20mg and discovered that it might be closer to a shroom trip of 2.5-3g in intensity. He will be trying 15mg and 25mg in the future as further exploration.

[Beeker]

Originally Posted by mictihtoya

Beeker, what samadhi said directly contradicted what you were saying about the psilocybin/psilocin levels in dried mushrooms. Thirty five milligrams is a high dose of psilocybin, and if its effects are like Strassman described then you'd be lucky to find 35mg in 3.5 grams of dried Psilocybe azurescens/cyanescens. P. cubensis would be lucky to contain 35mg in 10 grams dry. D.M. Turner estimates dried P. cubensis contains around 3mg psilocybin/psilocin per gram.

That's fine. The information SWIM has is from a web site of just mushroom enthusiasts. SWIM has never done a study on his own so what I posted was out of an old content calculator based on a 1980's Journal.


5.6 milligrams of psilocybin per gram of dried Psilocybe cubensis mushrooms
0.5 milligrams of psilocin per gram of dried Psilocybe cubensis mushrooms

This does not take into account that you might get some added spice:

• Baeocystin (4-Phosphoryloxy-N-methyltryptamine)
• Norbaeocystin (4-Phosphoryloxytryptamine)

so 3.5 grams is 20 mg 4-po-dmt (rounded) and 2mg (rounded) 4-ho-dmt. 22mg 4-aco-dmt might be equal to an 1/8th of dried Cubensis but SWIM has never had pure 4-po-dmt or 4-ho-dmt for obvious reasons so SWIM can't really compare.

1/8th of SWIMs freshest Cubensis has more mental and visual weight then 40mg 4-aco-dmt. SWIM gets a great body high and exquisite visuals but nothing like a good shroom trip and certainly nothing close to 50 wet grams of Cubensis blended in OJ.

SWIM isn't really looking for recreational usage of 4-aco-dmt right now. SWIM will say 20mg of 4-aco-dmt and 5mg 5-meo-mipt will put most on thier ass but SWIM is more about the bizarre landscape one finds after exploring such things for decades.

SWIM isn't you so proceed with caution.

SWIM hasn't found any real body load from 4-aco-dmt at 35mg-44mg. It always leaves SWIM like 4-ho-mipt 40mg-60mg without any real negatives (which is another favorite).

SWIM get nausea on 5+ grams of shrooms as well as headaches and 5-meo-mipt over 5mg can cause all sorts of GI tract issues (gas and diarrhea).


SWIM has been working with 20mg-24mg 4-aco-dmt taken with 3 grams of Cubensis with great results. SWIM finds it a better combo then Harmaline/Harmine MAOI and shrooms.

[Beeker]

SPECIES % PSILOCYBIN % PSILOCIN % BAEOCYSTIN REFERENCE
P. azurenscens 1.78 .38 .35 Stamets and Gartz 1995
P. bohemica 1.34 .11 .02 Gartz and Muller 1989; Gartz (1994)
P. semilanceata .98 .02 .36 Gartz 1994
P. baeocystis .85 .59 .10 Repke et al. 1977; Beug and Bigwood 1982(b)
P. cyanescens .85 .36 .03 Stijve and Kuyper 1985; Repke et al. 1977
P. tampanensis .68 .32 n/a Gartz 1994
P. cubensis .63 .60 .025 Gartz 1994; Stijve and de Meijer 1993
P. weilii .61 .27 .05
P. hoogshagenii .60 .10 n/a Heim and Hofmann 1958
P. stuntzii .36 .12 .02 Beug and Bigwood 1982(b); Repke et al. 1977
P. cyanofibrillosa .21 .04 n/a Stamets et al. 1980
P. liniformans .16 n/d .005 Stijve and Kuyper



Amount of indole alkaloids in fruiting bodies of different species by using pure methanol as solvent (%, dry weight).

Species Psilocybin Psilocin Baeocystin
P. semilanceata 0.98 - 0.34
P. bohemica 0.85 0.02 0.04
P. bohemica (cultivated) 0.93 0.04 0.02
P. cubensis 0.63 0.11 0.02
G. purpuratus 0.34 0.29 0.05
I. aeruginacens 0.40 - 0.21
P. cyanescens 0.32 0.51 0.02


References #
# Beug MW, Bigwood J. 1982. Psilocybin and psilocin levels in twenty species from several genera of wild mushrooms in the Pacific Northwest, U.S.A. J. Ethnopharm, 5, 271-289.
# Bocks SM. 1968. The metabolism and psilocin and psilocybin by fungal enzymes. Biochem. J., 106, 12-13.
# Casale JF. 1985. An aqueous-organic extraction method for the isolation and identification of psilocin from hallucinogenic mushrooms. J. Forensic Sci., 30, 247-250.
# Gartz J. 1985. Zur Isolierung des Baeocystins aus den Fruchtkoerpern einer Psilocybe-Art. Pharmazie, 40, 274.
# Gartz J. 1987. Variation deer Indolalkaloide von Psilocybe cubensis durch unterschiedliche Kultivierungsbedingungen. Beitraege z. Kenntnis d. Pilze Mitteleuropas, 3, 275-281.
# Gartz J. 1989a. Biotransformation of tryptamine derivatives in mycelial cultures of Psilocybe. J. Basic Microbiol., 29, 347-352.
# Gartz J. 1989b. Biotransformation of tryptamine in fruiting mycelia of psilocybe cubensis. Planta Med., 55, 249-250.
# Gartz J. 1989c. Occurence of psilocybin, psilocin and baeocystin in Gymnopilus purpuratus. Persoonia, 14, 19-22.
# Gartz J, Mueller GK. 1990. Analysis and cultivation of fruit bodies and mycelia of Psilocybe bohemica. Biochem. Physiol. Pflanzen, 184, 337-341.
# Gartz J, Mueller GK. 1990. Versuche zur Kultur von Gymnopilus purpuratus, Purpurflaemmling. Myk. Mitt. blatt (Halle), 33, 29-30.
# Gartz J. 1991. Further investigations on psychoactive mushrooms of the genera Psilocybe, Gymnopilus and Conocybe. Ann. Mus. civ. Rovereto (Italy), Sez. sc. nat.,7, 265-274.
# Gartz J. 1992. New aspects of the occurance chemistry and cultivaion of European hallucinogenic mushrroms. Ann. Mus. civ. Rovereto (Italy), Sez. sc. nat., 8, 107-124.
# Gartz J. 1993. Narrenschwaemme. Psychotrope Pilze in Europa in Europa. Herausforderung an Forschung und Wertsystem. Editions Heuwinkel. Genf/Neuallschwill.
# Kysilka R, Wurst M. 1990. A novel extraction procedure for psilocybin and psilocin determination in mushroom samples. Planta Med., 56, 327-328.
# Semerdzieva M, Wurst M, Koza T, Gartz J. 1986. Psilocybin in Fruchtkoerpern von Inocybe aeruginascens. Planta Med., 47, 83-85.
# Sottolano SM, Lurie IS. 1983. The quantitation of psilocybin in hallucinogenic mushrooms using high performance liquid chromatography. J. Forensic Sci., 28, 931-935.
# Thomson BM. 1980. Analysis of psilocybin and psilocin in mushroom extracts by reversed-phase high performance liquid chromatography. J. Forensic Sci., 25, 779-785.
# Weber LJ, Horita A. 1963. Oxydation of 4 and 5-hydroxy-indole derivatives by mammalian cytochrome oxydase. Life Sciences 1, 44-49.
# Wurst M, Kysilka R, Koza T. 1992. Analysis and islolation of indole alkaloids of fungi by high-performance liquid chromatography. J. Chromatogr., 593, 201-208.

Reputation Comments on this post:

copy n paste but it took you some effort ill bet and is useful!

[eltimmy]

Just a note: psilacetin might very well produce more effect at lower dosages compared to higher dosages of psilocin, despite psilacetin possibly changing to psilocin. Bioavailability, absorption from stomach, etc.

There is also the issue of degraded material, etc.