Opinions - why are none of the lsd related substances described in TIHKAL sold on the street?

[The Wizard]

If one reads the LSD section of Shulgin's famous book on Tryptamines, TIHKAL, they will see that he describes many compounds related to LSD. I've never heard of any of these hitting the street. Why is this? It would be great if substances like ETH-LAD, PRO-LAD, AL-LAD were available.

As far as I know the only other substances which have been found on blotters beyond LSD are DOB, DOM, DOI, DOC, Bromo-Dragonfly, 5-MEO-AMT and possibly LSA (though extremely unlikely).

[nalbano34]

Maybe due to stability or complexity of production.......just a few guesses.

[stoneinfocus]

Maybe they´re considered "second class" alternatives to the chemicals mentioned in PHIKAL, as he somehow one might think this library was made, avoiding trouble with the agencies?

[Swimster]

well these other similar substances are not that widely known.
not to mention, lsd came out to the public way before those other ones.

[asplinteredfawn]

Tell your SWIM, to put his self in the mind of a "street dealer”. First he must acquire these obscure chemicals which this SWIM believes would be more difficult to do than finding the common psychedelics being sold currently. Also, ETH-LAD is more potent than LSD25 μg to μg, so the dosing of it would be a rather difficult task for the average "street dealer” or "teenage drug lord". Then he must find a way to distribute it, to a generation of youth that is mainly interested in prescription drugs and whatever you feel like putting in an ecstasy pill; and they usually don't know the difference, most probably don't care. So then he have to come up w/ a market for a combination of letters that no one except for serious Psychonaut can associate. So he calls it White Light #2 or something and goes around saying "Have you ever taken mushrooms or LSD? Yeah? Well then you'll love it". But then again most of the youth these days hasn't used LSD. SWIMS who are truly interested in psychedelics are rare these days. So why wouldn't these drug dealers just grow a flat of P. Cubensis on rye berries in their mothers basement. It comes down to that it's not economical. Unless he belongs to a circle where rare psychedelics are highly sought after and "street dealers" just usually aren't those sort of people. "street dealers" tend to fancy money. People who care about finding exotic tryptamines and phenethylamines don't generally bump into each other too often, so when someone has something it’s not spread very far and generally Psychonauts aren’t drug dealers. This SWIM really wishes more people would take the time to explore the topic of psychedelics. I'm sure your SWIM does too. Plus who knows maybe in another few years these drugs will get there 60 minutes special. Also seriously I think a lot of it comes down to dose. It’s very hard to accurately measure out correct doses of these drugs unless you’re a chemist. If you’re a chemist you’re probably not going to be distributing drugs for profit so it’s not going to get to “street dealers”. SWIM has purchased various lesser known psychedelics and whenever they did not come from a chemist or one of the old internet suppliers, the doses he was given where either very low or over the top, and most of these chemicals where in the mg dose range. So you can imagine what happens if someone gets a hold of some ETH-LAD and tries to dilute it correctly. It will most likely end up like this DOC fiasco that happened where SWIM lives. I know that most likely everyone who reads this already knows this information and aren’t idiots. I’m being condescending and parental so I can accurately make my points w/ out being vague. Thanks for listening to my view on it at least.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	good one
	good pot on eth-lad.. not everyone that can see things as you do.
	Sad but true :(

[tayo]

Yes, in short there unfortunately is a lack of quality chemists out there, and things may be passed off as LSD. it is hard to find LSD in many places now, and even then who knows if it's real unless swim makes it himself... that is swim's answer.. become a chemist and make it yourself.

[vcdman]

also pretty much all of the LSD cousins are made by first producing LSD, so why go past a tried and true product.

Also stability of some of the cousins is way more difficult to manage than LSD...

Reputation Comments on this post:

excellent points, that shows you know what you are talking about.

[asplinteredfawn]

SWIM can usually tell by the sort of OEV's and tension if it's true acid. Plus there is more of a doiley fractal shape to the patterns for swim on LSD25. Also each halluciongen has a specific variation of " mind fuck " or " lysergic clarity" if it's LSD25. Swim can usually tell the differece between most hallucinogens. Except for Phen's they all look the same to SWIM just feel different. Different body sensations and lengths.

[frankpikins]

well swim has come across several acid analogues and other tryps and has found that no one feels safe buying them and hance those of us with access dont feel like selling something that peaple are scared shikless about and wont buy

[chemlove]

Originally Posted by frankpikins

well swim has come across several acid analogues and other tryps and has found that no one feels safe buying them and hance those of us with access dont feel like selling something that peaple are scared shikless about and wont buy

Can't be said better, why make something difficult, that nobody trust taking. especially when most of the time (like stated before the compound stability is not well known, or its just not that stable).

[Felonious Skunk]

Who's to say that these analogs haven't appeared in blotters, liquid, etc? Since dosing with LSD is in almost all cases a guessing game, it wouldn't be much different with the analogs.

I'm quite sure that the kind of personality traits that lead certain individuals down the road to becoming LSD chefs also predisposes at least some of them to mischief like putting ALD-52 on their blotters, which is a drug that SWIM believes he may have tasted on one magical occasion and if so feels it was much better than regular old 'cid anyway.

[Beta]

Swim is thinking about buying a bottle of good lsd in amsterdam and then ask to a chemist to make some ald-52 from it.

[enquirewithin]

ALD-52 ans LSD-25 may well have the same effects. "If ALD-52 hydrolyses so easily to LSD, and the body is indeed a hydrolytic instrument, then these two drugs should be absolutely equivalent in every particular..." Shulgin

[Beta]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

ALD-52 ans LSD-25 may well have the same effects. "If ALD-52 hydrolyses so easily to LSD, and the body is indeed a hydrolytic instrument, then these two drugs should be absolutely equivalent in every particular..." Shulgin

Maybe but there is several testimony (including Hoffman experience) saying the opposite.
It might be the time to know!

[enquirewithin]

It's hard to confirm one way or the other. This quote, from The Brotherhood of Eternal Love by Stewart Tendler & David May (1984) comes up often

Measurements of brain waves while people were taking the two drugs showed that while LSD produced brain waves associated with intense concentration and anxiety, ALD produced brain waves showing a more relaxed mental state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALD-52

And this from Peter Stafford's Psychedelics Encyclopedia (1992 edition):

ALD-52 is the LSD analogue which is most often represented as acid... is transformed into acid upon contact with water. The resulting trip is generally said to be smoother than acid.

He also says that Hoffman says it was 'quite unstable' and needed to be kept cold (he seems to contradict himself!)

It has the same characteristics as LSD, but supposedly "without the anxiety, tenseness, and other problems inherent to it" The Hallucinogens by Hoffer and Osmond (1967)

http://www.experiencefestival.com/ald-52

About "Orange Sunshine" which was claimed to be ALD-52:

Millions of "Orange Sunshine" hits later, at their 1974 trial in San Francisco, initially incredulous government chemists quickly recovered from their shock at the duo's inventiveness, by countering that even
if they hadn't:

1) made LSD, or
2) made LSD at some stage in the reaction,

since ALD-52 was extremely unstable to moisture, and would decompose to LSD soon after tableting (and, of course, on intake), they were still criminally liable.

(Though this might seem to be paradoxical to the 90% potency claim, it isn't if you consider that the Molecular Weight of LSD tartrate
divided by the M.W. of ALD-52 tartrate is about 90%.)

(See Burton Hersh, "The Mellon Family". N.Y.: William Morrow (1978),

http://beyond-the-illusion.com/files...tine-Chemistry

Jonathan Ott says in Pharmacotheon (1996) says that its effects are 'identical' because it hydrologizes into LSD...

Anyone got any further information?

[Felonious Skunk]

Whatever it was, it was quite unlike any LSD SWIM or his companions had ever taken before or since, and all were quite experienced.

One would also consider set/setting, but with this stuff it was almost as if set/setting would be irrelevant. Clear, lucid, and visuals of an extraordinary nature. And this was in an era when research chemical meant the latest pesticide to come out of Dow.

SWIM has a good TR laying around somewhere.

[Nagognog2]

SWIM should be prepared to pay through the nose to convert LSD-25 into ALD-52. It requires rather expensive equiptment and chemicals. The chemist best be top notch as well - who can see the bonds shifting in his sleep.

[Swimster]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

SWIM should be prepared to pay through the nose to convert LSD-25 into ALD-52. It requires rather expensive equiptment and chemicals. The chemist best be top notch as well - who can see the bonds shifting in his sleep.

...not to mention swim has heard that it is common for ALD-52 prepared for sales to degrade back into LSD-25, in which may not be a desired product to sale. in less of coarse it is used for immediate personal use after production.

As to comparison between the two:
for the ALD-52 experience, swim has heard of it to be distinguishable from LSD-25, in that there is a noticeable ansence in anxiety usually created by LSD.

Also,
In The Hallucinogens by Hoffer and Osmond (1967), ALD-52 (D,L-Acetyllysergic acid diethylamide) is listed as having a lower (approximately 1/5) intravenous toxicity (in rabbits), a lower (approximately 1/8) pyretogenic effect, an equal psychological effect in man, and double the antiserotonin effect as compared with LSD.

[Beta]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

SWIM should be prepared to pay through the nose to convert LSD-25 into ALD-52. It requires rather expensive equiptment and chemicals. The chemist best be top notch as well - who can see the bonds shifting in his sleep.

Do u see an easier way to get it? It's probaly easier than get it from scratch.

[enquirewithin]

^If indeed it actually is any different, is stable and son. Also, LSD-25 itself is always different every time you take it...

[Beta]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

^If indeed it actually is any different, is stable and son. Also, LSD-25 itself is always different every time you take it...

For the sake of the science, swim is ready to sacrifice himself in large scale tests...
He just needs a bottle of lsd-25 and a good chemist.

[Felonious Skunk]

Originally Posted by marcan

...He just needs a bottle of lsd-25 and a good chemist.

Well those two things shouldn't be too hard to find...

[Beta]

Originally Posted by Felonious Skunk

Well those two things shouldn't be too hard to find...

...swim doesn't know how to start...