Is MDMA considered a psychedelic?

[Dalfir]

SWIM has never used MDMA, but wonders if it's considered a psychedelic without the chance of a negative "trip" that can also be applied to the Shulgin scale of psychedelic experience.

[Swimster]

swim also wonders.

It isn't trippy or hallucigenic at all like some say, although it opens one up, and alters perception.

and has some psychedelic atrributes to it.

someone...??

has shulgin labeled it as a pschedelic?

[Nagognog2]

No. It is correctly classified as an entactogenic. Or a substance that gives rise to feelings from deep, down yonder in the soul - if you will.

Rather than a psychotic reaction, as with LSD et al, MDMA'a worst-case scenario is an anxiety-attack. Set & Setting, and proper dosage (don't take too much!) negate the likelihood of this occuring.

[radiometer]

I've seen some very heated arguments regarding this question. Although I don't agree with him, Murple has presented a pretty strong case for considering MDMA a psychedelic. I believe that to some extent, the coining of the term "entactogen" was done to distance MDMA from the illegal psychedelics, in the vain hope that it might help keep it legal.

[Zee]

SWIM doesn't consider MDMA a 'psychadelic' drug because of the time frame that it emerged on the street which was the late 70's early 80's (although the roots of MDA date back to the 1930's?). SWIM considers a psychadelic drug anything that was popular from the 60's and 70's like L.S.D., peyote, and even marijuana. They were apart of the culture and helped represent the era. The term psychadelic is apart of this mythology and legend of this now passed space of time.

SWIY could always coin a new term for the drugs that are available now and how they affect people in society. Escapoids comes to mind.

[Zee]

*added... come to think it... some of the other drugs that came to be popular in the 60's and 70's like cocaine, heroin, downers, etc.... wouldn't be considered psychadelic in SWIM's mind either. Ultimately, it matters most on personal perspective. How did you live through this time or how you've come to look back at this time. Obviously, acid was the primary drug in spawning the term, but if you used more or were interested in more than it could easily be merged with those substances as well.

[Bajeda]

The concept of a 'psychedelic' isn't really a social construction Zee. It is a scientific term to denote the class of drugs, and that is where the designation came from and how the different groups of drugs are classified. Cannabis isn't really a psychedelic in my opinion, as it has too many different characteristics, though it does produce some psychedelic effects.

MDMA was first synthesized in 1914 I believe by Merck, and was used by psychiatrists in therapy before it hit it big on the streets and clubs really.

But to reiterate, the period of time a drug came into use doesn't really make a difference as to what its classification is. Speed came out big towards the end of the 60's as well, but you wouldn't call that a psychedelic would you?

[podge]

Entactogen is the the most accurate term for MDMA , but swim would still consider it to be psychedelic, the two best ways swim has heard the word psychedelic being defined as are:

"Mind manifesting" - literal meaning

and

"Soul opening"


For swim MDMA definatly fits the bill as both of these as well as entactogen.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

No. It is correctly classified as an entactogenic. Or a substance that gives rise to feelings from deep, down yonder in the soul - if you will.

Rather than a psychotic reaction, as with LSD et al, MDMA'a worst-case scenario is an anxiety-attack. Set & Setting, and proper dosage (don't take too much!) negate the likelihood of this occuring.

Anxiety attack was very much the word for swim's last MDMA experience,started out okay but by the time swim got home it seemed as if everything in the world wanted to hurt him and that his friends,family,and even pets hated him.He couldn't sit still and he had the absolute certainty something would go wrong,horribley wrong that night.This probably isn't the most common MDMA experience and swim had the right set and setting.Maybe swim is just fucked up and any drug will manifest that?

[Lehendakari]

SWIM has only 2 experiences with XTC long ago when he was a puppy. He most definitely would consider it a psychedelic for this two reasons:

1. Visual distorsions of colours occurred and there was some kind of frame "echo" (don't know if this makes sense) The vision he was seeing would repeat as a background image when focus on something else.

2. When music was off, he could play the song he wanted in his head and it sounded better than real every single note of every instrument was heard and remembered even if the he didn't know the song very accurately.

[Nagognog2]

I find psychedelics drugs which make a thousand thoughts possible at any given moment - and not need them to be connected with the correct sences either: Seeing sounds, tasting colors, etc.

Entactogenics are centering and quieting (for most). One flute playing clearly rather than the entire orchestra.

Interestingly, the stodgy old Merck Index, which up until recently listed LSD etc. as psychotomimetics, lists MDA and MDMA as entactogenics.

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by podge

Entactogen is the the most accurate term for MDMA , but swim would still consider it to be psychedelic, the two best ways swim has heard the word psychedelic being defined as are:

"Mind manifesting" - literal meaning

and

"Soul opening"


For swim MDMA definatly fits the bill as both of these as well as entactogen.

Psychedelic ----> Psyche = the mind .... deloun = make visible/clear .... deloun is from delos = visible/clear.

So you could read it as "to make the mind visible", though its commonly described as "mind manifesting". So a psychedelic substance would be a mind-manifesting one.



Now MDMA has been referred to as both an entactogen and an empathogen. Entactogen seems to be the preferred classification for this grouping of substances, but empathogen is another way of referring to MDMA and other substances that induce empathy, which not all entactogens do.

An empathogen can be described as something that "induces feelings of empathy", and was coined by Ralph Metzner though David Nichols disagreed with its use as the root "pathos" means suffering, a word with an undoubtedly negative conotation.

Its hard to say exactly what entactogen is derived from. I have seen decriptions that imply it has a mixture of Greek and Latin roots, and also that it only has Greek roots. I can't find any examples of the second opinion on the internet, so it may have just been erroneous.

I think your second definition of the literal meaning of the word "psychedelic" is from a description of the meaning of the word entactogen however.

One way to break the word down is: "en" (Greek - within), "tactus" (Latin - touch), "gen" (Greek - produce), which you could decipher as "to produce a touching within", or "to touch within". Basically it infers the connection with one's self that people can achieve with such substances, though I think empathogen works better on some levels as it can denote empathy towards one's self and towards others, while the term entactogen doesn't quite capture the social essence of such substances, whether those effects are solely derived from a release of internal inhibition or a connection with the social aspects of one's being or whatever. As Shulgin said about MDMA, that it is a window to the soul, you could also look at 'entactogen' in this context as meaning "to touch one's soul", though thats just a personal observation and is a completely subjective interpretation.

Likewise, "entheogen", a more novel form of reference to psychedelics of a spiritual nature, means "to produce god within" or more commonly interpreted, "to reveal the god within".

[Nagognog2]

I believe it was Dr. Andrew Weil who concocted the "windows of the soul" reference. But I think we should stick to it's being a psychedelic - or not.

[Bajeda]

I think we need proper definitions of what psychedelic and entactogen really mean, accepted by consensus of course.

After we have that we can determine which category a substance such as MDMA falls in to.

Terms such as empathogen and entheogen and the like are relevant as well.


This thread may be about whether or not MDMA is a psychedelic or not, but I think its cutting it too short to simply say 'no' without further elaboration on the matter.

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by radiometer

I've seen some very heated arguments regarding this question. Although I don't agree with him, Murple has presented a pretty strong case for considering MDMA a psychedelic. I believe that to some extent, the coining of the term "entactogen" was done to distance MDMA from the illegal psychedelics, in the vain hope that it might help keep it legal.

I've seen those too! Murple is somewhat dogmatic at times. I remain dubious. It's possible to argue that MDMA is a psychedelic or has psychedelic properties. However, it also has many of the properties of a stimulant (one being that people who are 'rolling' can tend to talk a lot!) It also seems to make many people highly egotistical whereas LSD, for example, tends to humble people. It's certainly not a psychedelic like LSD, mescaline or psylocybin.

Shulgin has said that it was more a stimulant than a psychedelic-- I can't find the quote now, unfortunately.

Perhaps drugs don't fit into neat categories, like people. You could say that there is a continuum of drug effects ranging from pure stimulation (BZP, ephedrine) to fully psychedelic (LSD, psylocybin) and that MDMA (and methylone) fit somewhere along that continuum.

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

It also seems to make many people highly egotistical whereas LSD, for example, tends to humble people.

You really think that?

From my rabbit's experience, very few people are egotistical or self-centered in any way, shape, or form while on MDMA.

Once you add amphetamines or meth or something to the picture things can change of course, as with any other adulterants that could be added to ecstasy, but with pure MDMA it doesn't seem likely for people to be egotistical at all.

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by Bajeda

You really think that?

From my rabbit's experience, very few people are egotistical or self-centered in any way, shape, or form while on MDMA.

Once you add amphetamines or meth or something to the picture things can change of course, as with any other adulterants that could be added to ecstasy, but with pure MDMA it doesn't seem likely for people to be egotistical at all.

It's not pushy like speed, but my cat says thinks that MDMA has many amphetamine-like qualities (especially in larger doses), which is why it's so useful in therapy.

[Bajeda]

About the narcissism though. I find that MDMA makes people extremely humble, due to the intense empathy they feel towards all other people.

Maybe you just meant to say something other than egotistical? I'm just wondering how you came to make that observation in your earlier post.

[vantranist]

SWIM gets more empathy from Meth than MDMA... It may be becuase Empathy and pleasure go hand in hand (for swim)... From SWIMS expreince most people enjoy MDMA over Meth, however for SWIM MDMA is a Great drug to have a nice time on at a party... but Meth and Coke are the only drugs that give the "larger than life" feeling that i am sure you people get from MDMA.

Perhaps if one enjoys LSD more than MDMA they will get more empathy.

[Bajeda]

I don't think pleasure and empathy go hand in hand generally, though I guess it could be different for a few people.

I certainly know that cocaine, while making people more sociable, doesn't invoke more empathy in anyone swim knows. And swim has never encountered another substance that comes anywhere even close to MDMA in how much empathy and love for others it induces, even the related substance MDA.

Are we using the same definition of empathy here? Meh, doesn't matter. This discussion is off-topic by this point anyways so no point continuing it in this thread.

[Psych0naut]

SWIM has a light to medium case of HPPD(halucinogen persisting perception disorder), and when he does MDMA, it brings out his HPPD to the point SWIM sees the exact same visuals like when he is on a serotonergic psychedelic, like with mushrooms.
He sees the ceiling wave, and all kinds of intricate coloured flowers on the floor. Really weird, but it's a positive for SWIM.

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by Bajeda

About the narcissism though. I find that MDMA makes people extremely humble, due to the intense empathy they feel towards all other people.

Maybe you just meant to say something other than egotistical? I'm just wondering how you came to make that observation in your earlier post.

Maybe 'egotistical' is not the right word. It makes some people humble. My cat has has very empathic experiences with some other animals, like thinking the same thoughts at the same time and apparently understanding their feelings. But some animals get very self-obsessed and a bit obnoxious. My cat says that he thinks the feelings induced by MDMA are somewhat forced and artificial, especially after repeated use (abuse?)

Possibly factors like adulterants do play a part. It's very hard to know.

[podge]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

Maybe 'egotistical' is not the right word.

I think swim understand what swiy means. Obviously the feeling of empathy allows people to connect to others, it also allows them to be very humble as Bajeda said, swim has realised flaws of his while on MDMA and has learned from them.

But swim also finds that MDMA can be effective against being "too" modest. As swim has also been able to focus on aspects of swims persona which he is happy with while on MDMA (and swim has seen this happen in his friends also) and in some sense's overcome being "too" modest and being able to accept good things said or praise which swim would generally ignore or not truelly take on board.

Since realising/accepting certain things about himself swim is now generally happy most of the time, life's too short to let himself get upset all the time. He feel's he has a new general day to day confidence which has improved his life dramatically. Although MDMA is not the only drug to play a part in this.

There is a fine line between "cockyness" and "confidence" but there is definate a line there. And being overly modest can be a bad thing if people never accept their strenghts.....but be careful.....not enough modesty can lead to being cocky/egotistical ( enter Cocaine. lol ).

[Jatelka]

Theres an interesting study in the archive here...

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...=1467&catid=69

on the differential actions of an "entactogen" (MDE) a "stimulant" (methamphetamine) and a "psychedelic" (psilocybin). The results are fascinating

[Nagognog2]

See what 40 years of the aftermath of Tim Leary has done? We can't even agree on the meaning of the words. We got a lot of work to do ahead of us, kids. Muthafucka!

I think I'll start by re-titling the book 'Millbrook' - "Oops!"