Health - How exactly do benzodiazepine withdrawals differ from opiate withdrawals?

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Swim has always wondered this how exactly are they different?What makes the two feel different from one another?Are there symptoms a benzodiazepine addict feels that an opiate addict wouldn't?Swim knows benzodiazepine withdrawals are much more dangerous but he wants to know what exactly makes the two differ so much?Is there perhaps someone here that has experienced both and can compare and contrast?

[Lehendakari]

It is more difficult to withdraw people from benzodiazepines than it is from heroin. It just seems that the dependency is so ingrained and the withdrawal symptoms you get are so intolerable that people have a great deal of problem coming off. The other aspect is that with heroin, usually the withdrawal is over within a week or so. With benzodiazepines, a proportion of patients go on to long term withdrawal and they have very unpleasant symptoms for month after month, and I get letters from people saying you can go on for two years or more. Some of the tranquilliser groups can document people who still have symptoms ten years after stopping." -

Professor M H Lader, Royal Maudesley Hospital, BBC Radio 4, Face The Facts, March 16,

The quoted above is little specific as only compares benzos to heroin, and I have read methadone withdrawal is sometimes worse to that of heroin and lasting much longer. Anyway that's my 2 cents.

[Micklemouse]

Err, the above link is for a photographer's site! I think I know the site that you meant to link to - please don't, as it contains a Forum! The link in the quote should suffice for reference,

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Yes methadone withdrawal is far,far beyond heroin withdrawal but swim doesn't think anyone has died from it like benzodiazepine withdrawal.Swim is still having difficulty understanding how exactly the two types of withdrawal feel different?Swim can't imagine any symptoms being more intolerable than those of methadone or fentanyl withdrawal.What symptoms would benzodiazepine withdrawal give a person that opiate withdrawal wouldn't?Swim really feels sad for anyone going through either type of withdrawal and wants to sort of understand things from the perspective of someone addicted to benzodiazepines.

And swim probably shouldn't change topics but thought this might be the place to ask,since zolpiderm is similar to a benzodiazepine but yet is not would withdrawal from it be not as bad as benzodiazepine withdrawal or basically the same?

[Micklemouse]

Potentially yes. A similar regime to the one I posted in Nargyle's Diazepam Withdrawal thread is used for the Z drugs (Zolpidem, Zopiclone & Zaleplon) as they affect similar enough receptors. Again, The Ashton Manual (Google it! No links please!) is an excellent resource for information on benzodiazepines & Z drugs.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Ah wait aren't the z drugs different fron benzos because they work on only one benzodiazepine type receptor or is swim completely wrong and they work on a completely different GABBA receptor?Swim is probably getting this all wrong and hates to seem like an idiot.

[Laudaphun]

SWIM hasn't personally experienced any... (while don't we just sugar coat the term like the anti-depressant companies) "discontinuation syndrome" from abrupt cessation of benzodiazepines other than maybe a night or two of insomnia or a day or so of unusually high amounts of anxiety. SWIM has never taken benzos for a long period of time except at prescribed doses which were low.

But from what SWIM has heard the threat of seizure is the main complication of benzo withdrawl? For the most part people who have withdrawn from a huge dependance on benzos have reported it as the worst thing a SWIM could imagine. Anyways SWIM once heard SWIS say on another thread that it felt like he was

plugged into a wall socket for 3 weeks...

Those words will stick with SWIM forever as they paint a picture that SWIM does not like.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

The plugged into a wall socket for 3 weeks is a hard sensation to imagine and one swim would prefer to not find out about first hand.

[darawk]

Originally Posted by Laudaphun

Those words will stick with SWIM forever as they paint a picture that SWIM does not like.

That's funny that SWIY should mention that metaphor as that metaphor has stuck very strongly with SWIM as well. SWIM always uses that as an example to educate others about benzo withdrawal, whoever wrote it, kudos to you on an excellent textual rendering of a feeling.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

It's a pretty good description in swim's opinion,scares swim away from getting hooked on benzos.

[Jatelka]

I'm fairly certain the (exceedingly memorable and graphic) quote was from hh339

[allyourbase]

well for one thing, you get the shakes with opiates...with benzodiazapines its full blown seizures. you tend to get actual muscle stiffness/bruising with opiates, benzodiazapines usually give people something alike to EPS, wherin anything could conceivably hurt, but not *be* hurt. the nausea is far far worse with benzodiazapines in SWIMs opinion, and the withdrawls last twice as long as opiate withdrawls.

[Daytona71]

SWIM spent 27 days in detox from Valium use and since it has such a long half life the first week was nothing but the staff said to wait. Then it began. I paced the hall constantly and rocked back and forth whenever seated. Mild halucinations like not being able to discern distances to walls. When an unexpected noise occured like a fellow patient dropping a utensil in the cafeteria SWIM would jump from the chair and about hit the ceiling. Sleep only came with a Halcion which were dificult to have the staff alolow. 24 nof the 27 days were medicated and SWIM deceided to go to rehab instaed of heading back home as another 28 days monitored was more pleasing as difficult as listening to the dribble that some of that staff had to offer. Got to learn ceramics and put on skits for visiting relatives, yeah! SWIM has toughed out 10 days of Methadone withdrawl and even though it got worse each day it was tolerable. On a similar subject Soma withdrawl is about 72 hours of no sleep and terrible leg restlesness.

[Yukio Mishima]

It is peculiar to SWIM that he was what he considered a pretty heavy xanax user. He could use 10 mg and barely feel it. Evidently, it was building up in his body and he could not eat, so he quit cold turkey. Nothing happened. He just did not take it again. SWIM was a naive 16 year old(rough estimate) at the time and was not even aware that withdrawal could be expected and nothing in his experience alerted him to the possibility.

[tayo]

after going through 30mg of clonazepam and 20 lorazepam in about 4 days and stopping abruptly withdrawals came and passed in about 2 days... swim had trouble sleeping found himself very aggressive, easily agitated, yelling at everyone, just straight pissed off stomping around. as opposed to opiates which might make someone pissed off and not violent, but ill. swim would choose benzo withdrawals over opiate withdrawals any day, as long as the benzo withdrawals weren't going to kill him.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Odd,swim gets a little angry during wd and can be very mean verbally but not aggressive.Swim is in far too much pain to be aggressive.For the most part he is very regretful and sad.

[cyndi]

Originally Posted by Orchid_Suspiria

Ah wait aren't the z drugs different fron benzos because they work on only one benzodiazepine type receptor or is swim completely wrong and they work on a completely different GABBA receptor?Swim is probably getting this all wrong and hates to seem like an idiot.

Yes you are correct. People are under the impression the the z drugs are benzos when they are not. This is debated a lot. But swim has really looked into this and can tell swiy that the z drugs are not benzos; however, they do work on the benzo receptors as you said. Now the wds. Swim is an expert there too as swiy knows. Swim has taken valium, xanax, and klonopin. They all have different effects, the key to the intensity of the wds are how long taken and how much swim is taking. In swim's opinion it is switching one monkey to another monkey that could be worse than the detox swiy is used to. OK about wds, say ambien wd when taken nightly for 2 years, oh the worse is leg cramps and insomnia. Now same with the benzos, cold turkey, a hellish place you cannot imagine that does not go away in a couple of weeks sometimes. Swim would be bedridden sick, head spins badly, can't sleep, everything in the room is moving like a bad acid trip that won't stop. It is a nightmare. Trust swim!! She has been there. Now for therapudic benefits, one here and there for anxiety is not bad and won't cause addiction as long as it isn't taken daily. Swim will never never go there again with benzo wds.

As far as moodiness, oh yeah swim would snap and yell on benzo wds now. Probably what swiy is used to swim assumes is aggitation and a bit of lashing out but not go ballistic as with other wds. Each med is unique with that.

[tayo]

oh yes! forgot nightmares!

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Swim has some pretty horrid nightmares during opiate withdrawal,though the nightmares are even welcome after nights of no sleep.

[Henfer]

SWIH's father was heavily benzo addicted, and he told me it's like alcohole - once heavily addicted and withdrawn, you should not take it ever again.

as WIH's father was laying in a room with a heroin withdrawing guy, and told SWIH many stories about the withdrawal:

- benzo withdrawal is WAY longer than opiate withdrawal. opiate physical addiction goes away after ~two weeks, than the psychological withdrawal starts and takes some more weeks (however lots of people never really get off of the craving). benzos take month after month. in total, SWIH's father was half a year only in a special withdrawal clinic. the heroin guy was out after 6 weeks.

- opiate withdrawal is heavy, like being painfully ill, influenza for example. mass vomitting, diarrhea, pain.
- benzo withdrawal can kill you. yes, the withdrawal can KILL YOU if you do it yourself. even if you're in the ambulance and they suppose you're intoxicated with benzo's they won't give you flumazenil, because this could kill you. how, you want to know: heavy seizures, convulsions, and even grand mal epileptic seizure up to heartbeat stopping. this is if you do it cold turkey. however, if you give a H junkie naloxone, he'll feel mayorly ill, but it won't kill him.
- SWIH's father reported SWIH, that people on benzo withdrawal are more prone to suicide, as benzo withdrawal causes great anxiety, nightmares, heavy insomnia, major depression and suicidal thoughts. SWIH's father told SWIH that he felt like "there's no reason to live anymore" for him. However he got through, with the help of other people on withdrawal. they said to him one day (the doctors) "okay, from now on in ten days, you'll get your last diazepam pill". they stopped it after the 7th day (this is the strategy SWIH supposes) and SWIH's father first went berserk and then depressive.

so in general, benzo's are more addictive than opiates in a special way, heavier to get off, and after only several months, you'll be completely immune against the anxyolytic effects, and only weeks it takes to lose the sedating effect.

if you need more information and want to talk about it seriously, write SWIH a PM. SWIH will write you out some diary things his father wrote during withdrawal.

and, just to tell you: one of the comrades of his father, who was on benzos for more than 20 years (and ate diazepam like candy) went to withdrawal because he lost his wife (and his children with her) due to his diazepam-centered life, total lost of libido and interest in life. he wanted to get his life clean. he killed himself after 4 months of withdrawal with a combo of morphine, whiskey, xanax and ativan. it was not an accident, he wrote a suicide note.

in short: opiates kill you easier, but benzo withdrawal can kill you.

Reputation Comments on this post:

nice post

[tayo]

well the intensity and length of time until withdrawals cease also depends on the dosage, frequency of use, and half-life whether short (like lorazepam & xanax) or long (like diazepam & clonazepam).
in the case above it was diazepam, a very nice post man btw.

[wearestardust]

Tayo is quite right. The MAJOR difference between benzo and opiate WD is that opiate WD is not life-threatening, whereas benzo WD most certainly IS. Tayo is also very lucky that SWIT's WD lasted so short and wasn't too bad. SWIM was in rehab last year for methadone, heroin and poly-benzo/barb dependence. The opiate WD was extremely unpleasant but they took 28 days to taper him from the benzos; he did not sleep a wink for 21 days whilst the taper was being effected. Even two months later, he was still having terrible trouble with sleep. In the end, he had to go to his doctor and get scripted for benzos because the panic attacks were so bad in intensity and in frequency; but this time, no ABuse. Sticking religiously to the prescribed dosage, which in former times would have been like peanuts to an elephant. Can even get away with taking 0,5mg or 1mg LESS than daily prescription occasionally. He has no wish to ever experience the hell that is benzo WD ever again. Also, the WD depends a lot on which particular benzo we're talking. Lorazepam produces by far the worst, followed by alprazolam. The longer half-life benzos seem easier to come off. Ashton suggests always to end up substituting the patient's benzo of choice with diazepam, whose WD is easier to control; also it has the longest half-life of any of them - the active metabolite, Nordazepam, has a half-life of around 200 hours, compared with the 8 hours or so of alprazolam and the slightly shorter one of lorazepam, which, incidentally, was almost removed from the market 20-odd years ago because of the WD situation. Wyeth were sued and everything.
So Tayo is quite right in the post immediately above this one regarding substance, dosage and frequency of use.
WAStardust

[Henfer]

thank you, tayo. in the case of SWIH's father, it was Diazepam and Tavor (Lorazepam).

also, long before they began telling him that he wont get anymore, his pills were placebos anyways. you can see it this way:

"Ok patient, from this day on in 20 days, you'll get your last pill"
...
5 days later they replace the original benzo with a placebo same looking, even same taste etc. they have special ones for this, and do it 75% original benzo, then 25% placebo, and change this ratio to some day 100% placebo and 0% original until the physical withdrawal is done.

then the psychical withdrawal starts, and instead on day 20, they tell you on day 15 to come later, they have to order some. you come later, they tell you the same. finally, hours after your normal dosage, you get your "placebo". that time gap between asking and getting widens and widens. then, several days before you should get the last pill, they tell you you won't get any more.

this of course was not over 20 days, it was a MONTH-YEAR procedure, but that's the way it works with benzo withdrawal, majority of people never heard of this, and opiate withdrawal has very similar bases, but it goes other ways and there's also the 24-hour-coma-naltrextrone-way.

[wearestardust]

I should have mentioned that, physically speaking, opiate WD is a piece of cake compared with benzos. One can cope with 8-10 days of the usual cramps and sweats, bed-breakdancing, etc associated with opiate WD, but with the others it is far more of an ordeal. SWIM was seeing cartoons in his head, getting the most awful rebound panics, sweating and shaking, flashing lights, unreality, morbid thoughts and more. Never would SWIM want to ever have to endure such hell again. And the WD doesn't go away really for onths and months. I said I didn't sleep for 21 days solid; my insomnia has been a problem since then (this was last October/November) and I have flashbacks of the crazy visuals and totally unreal thoughts. To this day. For God's sake folks, watch your benzo intake. It can be the most horrible thing in the world to have to go through what SWIM went through.
Stardust *

[Henfer]

and by the way, SWIH does not know if this is true, but at least the doctors of the withdrawal clinic said: with benzo addiction, it's just like with alcohol. once withdrawn, you have to stay away from them the whole life, as even a 2mg valium can get you again to the cravings etc.