Opinions - @ the psychomimetic defenders

[terrordemon]

do people not realize that taking a lot of drugs, really whatever they are, will fuck you up in some way? whenever one "inebriates" himself the mind changes away from what it "normally" is. do you think that wouldn't do _something_ to your mind? especially the more you do it?

[radiometer]

Define "a lot."

[terrordemon]

enough to the point where you mind has become accustomed to functioning in the other state that to when the person is in their normal state, they have conflicts within the mind between reality and themselves

[terrordemon]

theres a missing r in the first "you"

its supposed to be "your"

why is there no edit?

[grandbaby]

Originally Posted by terrordemon

do people not realize that taking a lot of drugs, really whatever they are, will fuck you up in some way? whenever one "inebriates" himself the mind changes away from what it "normally" is. do you think that wouldn't do _something_ to your mind? especially the more you do it?

Well,

Reading books "does _something_ to your mind." Meditation and Yoga "do _something_ to your mind." Watching movies and playing videogames "do _something_ to your mind." Going to church or war or for a walk in the park all "do _something_ to your mind." Excercising most definitely "does _something_ to your mind." What do you want the "normal" state to be? What do you mean by "drugs"? Do you exclude endogenous drugs from that category? If so, why? Explain yourself in twenty words or less. This question is worth sixty marks.

If you're trying to say that LSD is a psychomimetic and that it trains the brain to lean toward psychosis, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone these days who'll agree with you. If you're not ... well, I don't know what the bejizzle you're trying to say.

Originally Posted by terrordemon

why is there no edit?

Because you're a newbie. As soon as you get some rep points you'll be able to edit posts.

[terrordemon]

all of those things you listed does something to the mind but does not physically alter your mind by putting a foreign substance in your body

by normal state i mean no materials that are not natural to the body or the diet. you'll probably ask "WHATS NATURAL?!?!?!" but if you eat 1 thing and it goes through your body, k thats natural. if you eat another thing and it does an effect on your mind and body i.e. a twelve hour trip, increased heart rate, all seratonin released in the brain, etc, then thats unnatural. something that takes your mind from a sober state and puts it out of it

i'm not saying that lsd is a psychomimetic that leads to psychosis, i just dont understand how some people can believe that it CANNOT lead to psychosis

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by terrordemon

i'm not saying that lsd is a psychomimetic that leads to psychosis, i just dont understand how some people can believe that it CANNOT lead to psychosis

I don't think you will find anyone on these forums who will say it can't lead to psychosis or other problematic mental conditions in those individuals already predisposed to such conditions. In such cases it could act as a catalyst for the progression of symptoms being expressed.

I don't think that taking lsd will give you psychosis. It may confuse you if you have trouble handling it, and you may have some unpleasant experiences, but I don't think it will lead a person with normal mental functioning into psychosis.

Originally Posted by terrordemon

all of those things you listed does something to the mind but does not physically alter your mind by putting a foreign substance in your body

Most foods we ingest are foreign to our body, while some of the drugs we don't aren't....

[Swimster]

"Substances" are a LITTLE peice in our big-ass world, a tool if you will. A "drug" is a "drug", dont listen to the government as much as you do and try to take it easy on the movies allitle eh. There are PLENTY positive things about said- "drugs". It's like sex, do you listen to your mama when she try's and tells you about holding it in when you were young?, or your cock?? Some perople believe sex itself can be bad.

..Ok ive noticed your thread said about ALL drugs, so the above was a 5 seccond post i wrote about em'.

As for psychedelics: jerry don't believe for a second that they should be considered a "drug", and they are NOT addictive. They are not for fun aswell, like recreation substances like cocaine. Pschedelic's show people the TRUTH though, not "mess them up"!

Word of advise: read more in the forum, and come to discover the MANY non-messed up, Swim team, you will come to find-out how intelligent they are.

[jux]

Originally Posted by terrordemon

by normal state i mean no materials that are not natural to the body or the diet. you'll probably ask "WHATS NATURAL?!?!?!" but if you eat 1 thing and it goes through your body, k thats natural. if you eat another thing and it does an effect on your mind and body i.e. a twelve hour trip, increased heart rate, all seratonin released in the brain, etc, then thats unnatural. something that takes your mind from a sober state and puts it out of it

i'm not saying that lsd is a psychomimetic that leads to psychosis, i just dont understand how some people can believe that it CANNOT lead to psychosis

anything you eat has an effect on the body. there are plenty of foods that are natural maoi's which affects your serotonin levels. caffeine (found naturally in certain foods) increases your heart rate and can impact your mood (just look at a coffee drinker that misses his morning cup)...so im missing your point about natural vs. unnatural.

the reason that people believe (know) lsd cannot lead to psychosis in people without previous mental illness is the research that shows it can't.

[Swimster]

then thats unnatural.

Not really. Don't forget that It's all natural, for example serotonin, Dopamine, norepinephrine, addrenalin, etc. None of which are usually created by, nor is, the drug itself, but rather created naturally by the brain.

[Jatelka]

A study done by Cohen in the sixties (Here...http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...=1088&catid=32), found that psychotic symptoms are no more common in people who had taken LSD than people who hadn't.

"Doing something to your mind" is definately NOT recommended for those with a previous or family history of psychiatric or psychological problems, but for the vast majority of people LSD is a remarkably non-toxic drug, which can lead to profound and important changes in attitudes and world view.

And as for natural/normal, with all the pesticides, poisons and hormones floating around in the food chain, even eating cannot be regarded as "safe".

There is a huge body of research evidence on LSD, which is more that can be said about (for example) some of the most common food additives.

Reputation Comments on this post:

well stated as usual, citing credible source, always good

[jux]

Originally Posted by Jatelka

And as for natural/normal, with all the pesticides, poisons and hormones floating around in the food chain, even eating cannot be regarded as "safe".

not to mention all the genetically altered foods (thanks monsanto!) that could be affecting our bodies in yet unseen ways (the technology is still to new to know the long term consequences) yummy, "round-up ready" corn and soybean....im sure that's just wonderful for us.....

(for more info about monosanto and genetically altered food, check out the "future of food" videos on youtube http://youtube.com/watch?v=YvLBMXC_D...related&search= there are 7 parts...)

[Lehendakari]

I used to think like you do like 10 years ago when I was a kid. I used to look at people who did XTC and think: "they are now a bit retarded cause they got brain damage."

Thanks lord illumination came on soon after. I think you have a lot of stuff to read and research cause you've been told a lot of bullshit and the worst thing: you believed it without questioning.

[terrordemon]

@ lehendakari - why do you say that ive believed everything and that you, after reading and researching so much, HAVENT believed everything youve read? it seems like the more stuff you read the more you believe. just because its in a book doesnt mean its right

no, i havent believed everything ive heard. these are opinions that ive come to based on my own experiences, but thanks for trying


and i do believe food is a drug, everything is, but some have more profound effects on the mind than others

and lehend, i dont look at people like that and think they got a bit retarted because they got brain damage, i think that their basic mind functionality has changed because theyve done enough things to change their most normal, "at home" state

[Lehendakari]

these are opinions that ive come to based on my own experiences, but thanks for trying

Would you mind telling you lab rat's experience with psychomimetics?

It would be a better argument to start a discussion than this:

do people not realize that taking a lot of drugs, really whatever they are, will fuck you up in some way? whenever one "inebriates" himself the mind changes away from what it "normally" is. do you think that wouldn't do _something_ to your mind? especially the more you do it?

and lehend, i dont look at people like that and think they got a bit retarted because they got brain damage, i think that their basic mind functionality has changed because theyve done enough things to change their most normal, "at home" state

It doesn't matter if you say it politically correct you think that "their basic mind functionality is changed" but, of course, you mean it's changed in a bad way so either you think they're less functional or they are less sane.

[terrordemon]

lehend, thanks for telling me what i mean by what i say. when did i say that "changed" was negative? there was no positive or negative connotation attached, except maybe in your mind.

my lab rat's experience were noticing parts within myself come out that could be seen as psychosis

[jux]

how do you know that this isn't from a latent mental illness you had before you use of drugs? just b/c you've never been diagnosed with mental illness prior to your drug use doesnt mean it didnt exist.

there is plenty of evidence that lsd doesn't cause psychosis in those who aren't already mentally ill (did you even bother to read the link jatelka provided?)....where is your evidence that it is? the best i can tell you are going on pure conjecture than any real solid evidence.

i would suggest that you research the topic at hand before jumping to baseless conclusions.

[Lehendakari]

^^ So, do you think there is a chance that people can actually have their basic mind functionality changed after psycomimetic use, in such a good way that they can see this psychomimetic use as a door towards new learning and enjoyment and perhaps as a way to actually function like they think they should do "normally"?

If you do, you can understand why psychomimetics defenders exist.

[terrordemon]

yes i can, and i feel that in myself. but that said i dont see it as 100% harmless

which it seems as some defenders do

[Lehendakari]

^^ No one around here does, there is lots of information about harm reduction, addiction and others.

[Skeetastic]

Syd Barret. Nuf said.

[jux]

While there has been some confusion in the public's mind about the mental illness Syd Barret suffered from, most of his band members and close associates have identified his mental illness as schizophrenia, and the mental health professionals that we've talked to also believe that he suffered from schizophrenia.
He seems to have had the genetic predisposition to schizophrenia, and and also experienced some of the noted environmental factors that have been linked in research to increased risk of developing schizophrenia.

stolen from: http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/...es/003640.html


he was genetically predisposed....it wasn't the acid.

[Jatelka]

Originally Posted by terrordemon

yes i can, and i feel that in myself. but that said i dont see it as 100% harmless

which it seems as some defenders do

terrordemon: Read through these posts (and the many other threads here).

These "defenders" are continually reiterating that LSD is NOT 100% harmless.

However sacremongering doesn't help: It generates fear, and fearful people perpetuate myths and ignorance, which makes drug-use less safe for others.

Fearful people are less open to education, and more prone to harm as a result.

[Micklemouse]

Seen by whom? The term psychotomimetic (the mimicking of psychosis) fell from use many years ago, being replaced as far back as 1957 by psychedelic - from the Greek psyche =mind & delos=clear (Humphrey Osmond). A psychiatrist or a psychiatric nurse with any degree of experence & knowledge should be able to tell the difference between someone experiencing a psychotic episode & someone who is tripping.

One may feel that the experiences one is having whilst on, or in the days after, a drug such as LSD or psilocybin may be akin to a psychosis, & for some unlucky individuals the one does indeed lead to the other, but the fact remains that they are 2 very different states of being, as anyone who has experienced both will tell you (I'm assuming that your marmoset has never experienced true psychosis - apologies if I assume wrongly). A bad trip can sometimes be seen as close to a psychotic state, in that it is very hard to convince the individual that it will end, or even remind them that it is a result of taking a drug, but again, a bad trip is often more like a prolonged anxiety attack than a psychotic break - that said, bad trips have led to psychotic breaks, but then so have prolonged periods of anxiety & stress.

Combine a psychedelic & an anxious, stressed person with unresolved issues in an unsupportive environment, & yes, that person may well end up broken, at least temporarily. They may not however. Combine the above factors in a supportive environment & the chances of the experience being usefull are much improved.

There is much to be learnt from the use of consciousness altering compounds, & there is also much fun to be had along the way, as with any other aspect of life. Of course one's "mind-functionality is going to change along the way", but then one's mind-functionality changes continuously anyway. Psychedelics, taken with awareness have the power to change it drastically, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. The same could be said for going to school, going to see a film, even crossing the road (I have known people who have had life changing experiences, for good & bad from all those examples!). As Ivor Cutler wrote, "This is called being alive, & can be terrific fun".

With psychedelics, awareness is the key - listening to what these great teachers are telling us. When that awareness is lost or not present is when the chances of negative experiences is heightened.

Reputation Comments on this post:

best post in this thread so far, by a mile

[Skeetastic]

Originally Posted by jux

While there has been some confusion in the public's mind about the mental illness Syd Barret suffered from, most of his band members and close associates have identified his mental illness as schizophrenia, and the mental health professionals that we've talked to also believe that he suffered from schizophrenia.
He seems to have had the genetic predisposition to schizophrenia, and and also experienced some of the noted environmental factors that have been linked in research to increased risk of developing schizophrenia.

stolen from: http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/...es/003640.html


he was genetically predisposed....it wasn't the acid.

Well SWIM had always been led to believe that prolonged LSD use by Syd resulted in mental problems which led to him being removed from Pink Floyd. Maybe SWIM was wrong.