Purity - How effective is a test kit (e.g. Marquis etc. reagents)?

[Ashwinder]

Hey there all, SWIM has a question about (as you may have gathered from the title) ecstasy testing kits. Now, SWIM has only seen kits which test for the presence of one thing over another; Marquis for example goes one colour for MDMA, another for amphetamines etc.

What she wants to know is what if there are 2 (or more) substances present? Will it go the colour of the most dominant substance, or a mixture of the two? I.e.; if there is MDMA (causes purple colour) and speed (causes brown colour) in the pill, will it go purple, brown, or purpley-brown?

Another way to look at is; is it like the mixing of genes in a zygote (most dominant wins) or mixing of paint (sludgy colour obtained)?*

*Please disregard this sentence if it makes no sense - SWIM's not even sure whether it does...

SWIM has searched about a bit and can't seem to find a solution, any help welcome!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good question!

[Davidbell]

Very good question. SWIM is also waiting for someone to tell truth on that

[radiometer]

If an MDMA reaction occurs with Marquis or Mecke reagent, it will obliterate any other reactions. If several reactions take place, it may be possible to see that something is "wrong" with the reaction, but one cannot determine what are the "unexpected" ingredients. Testing reagents are not useful for determining mixtures in pills, only more sophisticated tests such as chromatography can do that. The reagents are for determining whether a pill is "fake" or not. Hope this helps.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good advice

[Broshious]

SWIM posted a study done on test kits awhile back and people came and quickly defended them, but he still isn't sure that test kits are very useful for people who've never used before.

[Ashwinder]

Originally Posted by radiometer

If an MDMA reaction occurs with Marquis or Mecke reagent, it will obliterate any other reactions. If several reactions take place, it may be possible to see that something is "wrong" with the reaction, but one cannot determine what are the "unexpected" ingredients. Testing reagents are not useful for determining mixtures in pills, only more sophisticated tests such as chromatography can do that. The reagents are for determining whether a pill is "fake" or not. Hope this helps.

Thanks dude - just the kind of thing SWIM was looking for. The lab rats have suspected that the kits are not all that reliable if there are several compounds present, but they tell me that pills which have been shown to contain MDxx with a reagent prove to be the best 'in the field' so to speak.
As there is little chance of SWIM obtaining pure MDMA however, they seem to be the best choice available; at least better than not testing at all. SWIM wishes she had access to facilities that could carry out more sophisticated tests...also a couple of grad students

Originally Posted by Broshious

SWIM posted a study done on test kits awhile back and people came and quickly defended them, but he still isn't sure that test kits are very useful for people who've never used before.

Yes, I remember seeing something like that, don't know if it was the study you posted or a similar one (actually can't even be sure if it was on this forum...). From what I remember, the main problem in the one I read was false positives and negatives, possibly from innaccurate use of the reagents. SWIM is reasonably sure she used the kits correctly (um...drip and watch??) so this probably wasn't a problem...thanks for your help guys!

EDIT - Damn you're too fast with the posting Davidbell! I agree that the kits do answer the question 'is substance XXXX in this pill?'

[Broshious]

If it is as simple as drip and watch how could the people in the study possibly have screwed it up? From what SWIM read the testers were provided with samples that were made up entirely of one drug 2 of which were MDMA and the rest were other drugs. There were numerous false positives as well as testers not identifying the MDMA correctly. Now SWIM doesn't know if the testers were given bad instructions on the color changes or what not, but the data makes SWIM question how effective the test kits really are.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good info

[Ashwinder]

Originally Posted by Broshious

If it is as simple as drip and watch how could the people in the study possibly have screwed it up? From what SWIM read the testers were provided with samples that were made up entirely of one drug 2 of which were MDMA and the rest were other drugs. There were numerous false positives as well as testers not identifying the MDMA correctly. Now SWIM doesn't know if the testers were given bad instructions on the color changes or what not, but the data makes SWIM question how effective the test kits really are.

Hmm good point... perhaps it was a case of not being able to tell which of the chart colours the result was most similar to - SWIM was using Marquis and the colours seemed pretty distinctive; there was not really any doubt that it was purple.
SWIM does not really have enough experience with the kits to be able to say with any certainty, but she definately thinks that the positives she recieved were accurate based on her experiences. There does though appear to be a fair amount of doubt about the accuracy/repeatability of the results, as shown by the study you point to...the issue is foggy at best...

[Davidbell]

Well, Swim Find it could be very helpful when one buy high amount of Speed and test a pill before transaction using a Marquis reagant making sure it turn as organge as possible

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good point

[radiometer]

I've been involved for many years with DanceSafe, a harm-reduction group which which used to do quite a bit of on-site pill testing at raves and clubs, although I've never participated in this myself. A few years ago, it was noticed that, under the sub-optimal environment of raves (poor lights, noise and distraction) it was somewhat easy to mistake the Marquis reaction from DXM for that for MDMA, and it was out of concern for this that DS introduced the Mecke reagent as their primary test.

There may be many combination "ecstasy" pills out there, but as a general rule, the common adulterants which actually pose a real health risk, such as DXM (dangerous taken with MDMA) and PMA (dangerous on its own) are very seldom found in combination with MDMA, they are generally the only active ingredient in the pill. Speed is often found with MDMA, and although it can make for an unpleasant night, neither it nor most of the other common adulterants found with MDMA (i.e. ketamine, ephedrine, caffeine) pose a serious health risk for the average user. My assessment of this comes from the data available at www.ecstasydata.org. So, the use of test kits is still highly recommended. One should be aware of their limitations, but one should not be put off by them.

[Broshious]

They had two novice testers (obviously would be nice if they had a larger sample) using Marquis, Mandelin, AND Mecke to test substances. From the study:

Novice A and Novice B, who were professionals in pharmacology and toxicology but were inexperienced with the practical use of these test kits. The testers were given the test kit along with eight blinded samples that had been prepared as described in part I. They were given time to read the accompanying test kit labeling and were instructed only on how to record their findings. No other verbal or written instructions were provided.

One found a sample of DXM negative for MDMA and the other found it positive. Unfortunately they were not given a sample of PMA.

[Davidbell]

Originally Posted by radiometer

I've been involved for many years with DanceSafe, a harm-reduction group which which used to do quite a bit of on-site pill testing at raves and clubs, although I've never participated in this myself. A few years ago, it was noticed that, under the sub-optimal environment of raves (poor lights, noise and distraction) it was somewhat easy to mistake the Marquis reaction from DXM for that for MDMA, and it was out of concern for this that DS introduced the Mecke reagent as their primary test.

DanceSafe chose Mecke’s reagent for what reason ?
SWIM know of the Marquis-Simon-Mayer's and Mecke's Reagen but after a few search, he see that there are many other (see below). What is best Reagen to detect presence of amphetamine-methamphetamine-mdma and other ?

Mayer's Reagent, Mayer's Reagent
Marquis Reagent
Nitric Acid
Cocaine Test Co-Thiocyanate
Dille-Koppanyi Reagent
Mandelin Reagent
Ehrlich's Modified Reagent
Duquenois-Levine Reagent
KN Reagent (Fast Blue B Salts)
Cocaine Salts & Base Reagent
PCP/Methaqualone Reagent
Opiates Reagent
Sodium Nitroprusside Reagent
Mecke’s Modified Reagent
Valium/Diazepam Reagent
Talwin/Pentazocine Reagent

Anyway Take a look at this one. SWIM will maybe order that one soon.

[Broshious]

Hey I agree with you that some of the results in the study seem hinky, but as I cannot find another study that measures the effectiveness of the test kits it's the best I've got to go on. I'm certainly not saying test kits are worthless just that blind faith in them may be misplaced.

[Ashwinder]

When SWIM carried out the test it was at home under good lighting conditions and not in a club, and she has to admit they *seemed* pretty foolproof. It's a bit worrying that the testers were pharmacology and toxicology professionals, as SWIM would have thought they would be able to use the kits effectively...

When using Marquis, the similar colours for MDxx and DXM weren't a problem (SWIM thinks), as the only positives were for MDMA in one and amphetamines in the other. It is reasurring that DXM/PMA are likely to be the only effective ingredients if present, and SWIM remembers reading this elsewhere also.

The effectiveness of testing is something SWIM has wondered about for a while, and the issue was kind of raised again when she read a post on another forum from a guy whose wife had just been admitted to hospital. Luckily she is fine now, but according to the husband she displayed symptoms of extreme body temperature and her throat closing up to the point where she had trouble breathing. The doctors said the pills (sharks in UK by the way) were 'definatly ecstacy laced with something very nasty' - that is a direct quote. He has not (yet) elaborated on the 'nasty', but it does suggest that there could have been PMA or something as well as MDMA, unless she had an allergic reaction (if such a thing is possible). She had 3 pills, which in SWIM's opinion is a moderately large but not extreme amount if they are real MDMA; not so if PMA.

I agree that the kits are not worthless, but they are not infallible either, and taking ecstasy pills will always pose a risk - SWIM has decided she is willing to take that risk and understands that.

SWIM would like to find the scum sucking murdering lowlifes that manufacture 'fake' ecstasy, round them up and make them fight in a week-long battle royale...to the death obviously. In a serendipidous twist, the proceeds from the (televised) match would be used to set up SWIM's own private lab... funny how these things turn out

[jux]

Originally Posted by Ashwinder

. The doctors said the pills (sharks in UK by the way) were 'definatly ecstacy laced with something very nasty' - that is a direct quote. He has not (yet) elaborated on the 'nasty', but it does suggest that there could have been PMA or something as well as MDMA, unless she had an allergic reaction (if such a thing is possible). She had 3 pills, which in SWIM's opinion is a moderately large but not extreme amount if they are real MDMA; not so if PMA.

sharks are McPP (a piperazine)

[radiometer]

I have read the study (this has made the rounds every so often since it was first published) and I can only conclude, from my own experience and that of countless others, that the subjects were either 1) idiots and/or color blind, 2) the tests were designed to mislead the subjects, or 3) both. And two testers?!?!?! That is ridiculous. One wonders how many subjects they rejected before finding this miraculous pair who cannot make simple color distictions. The difference between a Mecke reaction for DXM versus MDMA is unmistakable. If these reagents are so undependable, then why are they used every day by law enforcement officers on the street? This study was done in order to make a bad name for the use of testing kits for MDMA, in my opinion.

Can an absolute beginner test a DXM pill with Marquis reagent and mistake it for MDMA? Absolutely. But someone with good instructions, who is paying careful attention, should be able to tell the difference. Also, I think if one is concerned about getting DXM pills, they should use Mecke reagent. Whenever SWIM might use some "ecstasy" pills, which is very rare these days, he uses three reagent tests,Marquis, Mecke, and Simons, on the material in question.

[Abrad]

The initial batch of pills with the "shark" logo which surfaced about a year ago were fairly decent pills containing MDMA. This batch was closely followed by the now infamous McPP sharks.

This serves to illustrate the reason why pill IDs are not allowed here as well as the need to use a testing kit.

[Eurorider1]

I have a test kit and with my test kit if it has an mdma content in it.. the color will turn brown to blackish and if it has a speedy to it ive noticed it will have some redish streaks in it as well.. i dunno how much that helps ya but just a lil 411 from a person who chem test every bean he gets.

[Davidbell]

What kit you use ?

[iceman2]

SWIM had a Marquis Reagent test kit at some point.

SWIM apparenty tried the following with the following results:

Ibizan Orange Hearts - purple colour
Motorola - deep black (immediately)
Rockets - a very pale yellow, almost transparent colour

SWIM advised that the colour from the final test was not even on the chart.

Its alleged on a pill testing forum that these "rocket" e's are the fake ones that are going around at the moment, and some have suggested they are piperazine based.

Indeed, SWIM had 4 over the course of a night, and early in the morning had bright red feet, arms and face and SWIM advised SWIM they felt "temporarily insane, trippy but not very nice at all".

[radiometer]

Maquis reagent is typically sold to simply determine whether or not there is MDMA present in a tablet. It was chosen for this use because it gives a very clear reaction with MDMA. It cannot be used to positively identify everything which might be sold in place of MDMA, though some common drugs are also clearly identifiable with Marquis.

What possessed SWIY to take four pills of a mystery drug? Obviously from the test results it was not the MDMA it was falsely purported to be, and not identifiable from a color chart, and should thus have been tossed in the toilet, but if one couldn't help themselves and simply HAD to take those pills, then at the very least perhaps they might have been a bit more cautious regarding the amount? SWIY might easily have been writing his trip report from the emergency room for all he knew.

Just some food for thought.

[iceman2]

Hi Radiometer

You're absolsutely right of course... SWIM was a bit retarded to do that, though I believe SWIM was advised initially that these particular pills were "just like old times" circa 1996-99, from a usually reliable acquitance.

After 1 the night before the ordeal SWIM experienced a slight buzz, after 1, then 2 the next night - nothing... So assuming they werent what they were cracked up to be, but still with the acquintances words in his head, SWIM assumed that there was just very little actual active MDMA product inside them, hence increasing dosage would therotically increase the amount. Stupid....

Only afterward did SWIM purchase the testing kit.... and read xxxxxxxxxxx of these "rockets"..!

SWIM had also just lost both parents withtin a few months of each other and wasnt really thinking straight AT ALL, and to be frank didnt care at that point what happened anyway - hence taking them in the firstplace to "escape" so to speak. The ironic thing was that no effects were seen at all until SWIM had a few goes of a joint, then "bang" - the whole world collapsed!

SWIM cares now anyway and does not want bright red feet again

[rocksmokinmachine]

The only thing about marquis reagent is that it cannot differentiate between different "MDxx" like substances, i.e. MDMA, MDA, MDEA etc.

[altnipper]

swim did the test on molly just to check it went purple as expected quite quickly but there was around one edge a green streak, does this mean 2C-B, DOB, or DOI is mixed in??? is this bad? swim doesn't know much about these and mixing them with e. ta

[freshacejay]

SWIM Just ordered EZ Test Extreme.
You cant find out everything, but there are three stages which help you find whats in it. First goes the test for MDMA or similar substances, but as stated before you have no clue what else is in it. So then you do 2 other tests and it gives you an idea. E.g. it also contains amphetamines or ketamine or DXM or so.
SWIM would like to know from ppl that use it how efective/usefull this is.
Thanks