Drug info - Kratom: usage, dosage, different types

[0utrider]

My monkey told me recently:

Hi!
I have made many experiences with Kratom and I got to know it pretty well. Here is a summary:

Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) is a medicinal leaf harvested from a large tree native to Southeast Asia in the Rubiaceae. It is in the same family as coffee, and the psychoactive plant Psychotria viridis (containing DMT). Other species in the Mitragyna genus are used medicinally in Africa, and also used for their wood. (the above is from wikip.)

Usage as a substitution for Opioids

Kratom was/is used as a substitute for opioid addiction. the government of thailand is thinking about approving Kratom as a treatment for amphetamine addiction, which seems to be a major problem in Thailand.

Kratom is a pretty good substitute, even though you'll not feel much of it, if you were on strong opioids before or if the metha/pola is still working in your system. still it might be effective to get rid of withdrawal symptoms. If prefer kava kava over kratom, because if you really want to get rid of opioids, kratom might just get you to switch on drug for another. it reminds (me) too much of the "real deal", so that its harder to forget it. kava is really subtile, you might not feel much of it at all, but it lifts up your moods and (if your addiction wasnt too bad) it fights some withdrawal symptoms. The effects remind me of the euphric effects of Tilidin or Tramadol.

Alkaloids in Kratom (taken from here)

Even though Kratom works like opioids and connects to the mu receptors in the brain, it has actually similarties with tryptamines.

Ajmalicine (Raubasine) Cerebrocirculant, antiaggregant, anti-adrenergic (at alpha-1), sedative, anticonvulsant, smooth muscle relaxer Corynantheidine Opioid antagonist Corynoxeine Calcium channel blocker Corynoxine A and B Dopamine mediating anti-locomotives (-)-Epicatechin Antioxidant, antiaggregant, antibacterial, antidiabetic, antihepatitic, anti-inflammatory, anti-leukemic, antimutagenic, antiperoxidant, antiviral, cancer preventative, alpha-amylase inhibitor 9-Hydroxycorynantheidine Partial opioid agonist 7-Hydroxymitragynine Analgesic, antitussive, antidiarrheal; primary psychoactive in kratom Isomitraphylline Immunostimulant, anti-leukemic Isopteropodine Immunostimulant Mitragynine Analgesic, antitussive, antidiarrheal, adrenergic, antimalarial, possible psychedelic (5-HT2A) antagonist Mitraphylline Vasodilator, antihypertensive, muscle relaxer, diuretic, anti-amnesic, possible immunostimulant Paynantheine Smooth muscle relaxer Rhynchophylline Vasodilator, antihypertensive, calcium channel blocker, antiaggregant, anti-inflammatory, antipyretic, anti-arrhythmic, antithelmintic Speciociliatine Weak opioid agonist Speciogynine Smooth muscle relaxer Speciophylline Anti-leukemic Tetrahydroalstonine Hypoglycemic, anti-adrenergic (at alpha-2)

types of Kratom

There are different types of Kratom:
Bali is widely sold and on of the cheaper types of Kratom. It is said to be not as potent as Thai Kratom, and with rather euphoric properties. Thai is said to be more potent and to have more sedative properties. There are other kinds, from other countries in Southeast Asia, like Malaysia.

There are mainly to types of Kratom, the white vein Kratom and the red vain Kratom. Most users prefer a mix of both, even though the red vain Kratom is said to be more potent. The alkaloid mixture is just different from the white vain kratom.



There different preparations of Kratom are:

• fresh leaf (the tradtitional way is to chew it or to make a tea out of it)
• dried kratom: the simple, most common kratom
• enhanced leaf: a standardized kratom leaf, with a higher alkaloid content due to careful selection and extraction
• Kratom extract
• Kratom pies

Histamin output

many people say, that they have everything is itching really bad while using kratom (similar to opioids). this is due to the output of histamin. i have never experienced that. it was rather a lil pleasureable. if you dislike it, you can fight it with dph/dhm, but the sideeffects of that stuff are bad.

sideeffects

Sideffects can be nausea and vomiting, but can be avoided by careful dosage. Some people seem to be more sensitive to Kratom than others, some are just senstivie to certain Kratom types. you should not mix Kratom with alkohol, since it might destory the effects of Kratom and the sideeffects might become worse. On the other hand i have made good experiences with 10-15grams of Kratom and just a few beers at parties, since the Kratom lifted my mood a lot and i got really talkative and outgoing. With high doses an OD is possible.

Longtime side effects can be: addiction (with withdrawal symptoms, similar to weak opioids), darkening of the face (might be a myth) and largening of the prostate, which seems not to have any major side effects itself and is reversible.

Kratom doesnt cause you to have a hangover.

Intake / dosage

The methods for takin Kratom vary from chewing (nasty!!!), making tea (wasteful), toss&wash (some people dont like it), smoking (very wasteful and not recommended) and taking it with capsules.

I prefer the capsule method: simply order 500 capsules (size 000, the largest) from ebay for a couple of bucks. as for toss & wash i recommend grinding the leafs & stems into a powder and taking out the stems that didnt grind up. The stems are said to contain alkaloids as well, especially alkaloids that prevent one from building up a tolerance. i usually take 10grams of leafs, but you might wanna start out with 5 grams. you'll need around 10 capsules for 5 grams, so its not a big deal.

kratom works on the same receptors in your brain as many opioids.

sources

kratom is legal throughout most parts of the world, i think except for australia and parts of southeast asia. The more you buy, the cheaper it'll be. I have made good experiences with talking to the vendors and asking for discounts for larger amounts of kratom.
I prefer leafs over most other preparations of kratom, because the cost/perfomance ratio seems to be the best. 10 bucks for 10 grams seem to be around the normal price, but half a kilo for a little less than 200 bucks is also not unusual. take a look at ebay.

Even though it is still legal, i think it might get banned soon, which is due to the addictive effects. It most-likely won't be used as a pharmaceutical medication, since the pharma industry would not be able to make a lot of money out of it, which is due to the good availability and the the fact, that you can't patent it.
Not abusing it and keeping it a secret might be a way to not illegalize it too soon.

extracts

How to make a Kratom Extract/Resin

dont get confused by the x-amounts that the extracts are supposed to have. 1g 15x NEVER equals 15g!! In my experiences 1 gram of 15x extract usually equals around 3-6 grams of kratom leafs. so if you usually take 10 grams of the leafs, you might wanna take 3-4 grams of the extract. however, being careful with the dosage is important.



the premium/enhanced leafs a usually a little bit better than the plain leafs, but in my opinion usually not worth the higher prices, especially since there have been reported some frauds, with vendors labeling normal leafs as enhanced or premium.

in my opinion, most extracts are not worth the money.

due to the popularity of kratom, there used to be a thing called Mellow Gold, which was sold as Kratom. It is not Kratom!

Kratom pies
Some vendors recently started selling kratom pies. they seem to be the new version of the extracts, since the didn't work out well and many customers were unsatisfied with them.
Even though they are rather expensive, i have had good experienes with the pies. Its easy to handle. The vendors sell it in pies and say that you could form small pills out of them and just swallow them. that is not true, it wont dissolve in your stomach!



you have to either boil it and make a tea out of it or put it in a glass of water in the microwave and let it dissolve. these are the best ways to get it to dissvole. i usually take about 3-5 grams of the pie, which equal about 10-15grams of good Kratom leafs. you might wanna add some sugar, since the taste isnt the best, but its bearable.

Tinctures

I have never tried the tinctures, which is due to the fact, that they are rather expensive and all i have heard about them is, that they seem to be similar to the extracts: disappointing. they are not worth the bang for the buck, and the amount of alkaloids that they said to have vary strongly from the actual amount.


potentiators

there are ways to save money and potentiate the effects of kratom. they are similar to the ways described here, most might apply to kratom as well, since it works the same way as opioids do.

The first thing is to start with an empty stomach. I have made good experiences with drinking grapefruit juice while taking kratom, maybe adding some (really, not much, as it would destroy the effetcs of the kratom) DXM.

Growing Kratom

take a look at this
If you get a plant, it won't be hard to grow it, but it might not be as potent as the commercial Kratom, depending on where you are living. In the sommer it prevers to stand shady (not too shady, but a lil bit, not full sun) and to get water ever now and then, but not too much.
in the winter the most important thing is to not let the temperature get below 5 ° celsius.


yeah, thats it, any questions? feel free to add any information

Reputation Comments on this post:

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[bob_arctor]

Many kratom extracts and pure alkaloids for sure can have an effect, but the full spectrum of alkaloids in regular leaf almost always is superior - this seems to be a concensus among many users.

Some have also discovered that extracts and alkaloids really add in a sort of synergistic way when added in small amounts to enhance leaf, and have come to prefer this method of using extracts to make regular leaf last longer and acquire a somewhat other experience than just leaf.

[0utrider]

SWIM also has made the experience that extracts produce a different feeling than just the leaf. SWIM thinks the leaf is a little more euphoric, while the extract is a little more sedative. but that might depend on the kind of leaf SWIM uses

[Stiney]

Good thread, thanks for the info. Just to ad something about the kratom pies (sold here as kratom resin or kratom cake). I have little doubt that it will dissolve in your stomach, if you cut off small pieces and suck on them they will dissolve in your mouth, causeing very noticable numbing of the tounge and throat (not unlike when cocaine is taken orally), so I would presume if saliva can dissolve it then stomach acid would make short work of it aswell.

[RxPosterChild]

SWIM has recently began using kratom regularly. As far as withdrawing goes, what's a good ball park to when physical symptoms might occur? If it's used everyday for how long? SWIM is very curious.

[Pino]

SWIM had withdrawals up to a week. SWIM used approx 30 grams of bali leaves a day. He used it for over a month or two, started with 10 grams ended with 30 grams a day. The withdrawals, where very alike a mild flu. Some kava kava before bedtime made swim sleep. SWIM found them quite mild.

Things swim tried:

Pies

Swim liked the pies the most. If swiy can miss the money, the pies are the way to go. They are rather tasty. It is a little bit like liquorice, only a more bitter variant. Some star anise and sucker will make it a quite enjoyable drink. The pies are 2/3 x the strength of the leaves. Swims maximum doses was 7 gram and his initial doses was 3 gram. The pies are made from the Bali variant of the leave. The effects are similar of that of kratom.

Leaves

Swim find the leaves the most cost effective option. The Bali variant is quite nice. With dosages ranging from 10 grams to 30 grams. He tried one Thai variant, which seemed to be more weak. However swim bought a new -for swim-Thai variant with red veined leaves. So he can change his opinion on this one. The bali variant is from one vendor, swim thinks, so the quality doesn't differ that much from batch to batch. Swim finds
most of the premium brands not really stronger.

Tinctures

Too expensive. On most tinctures the bottle reads, 20 grams of leave used. The effect is more disappointing than 20 grams of kratom.

Extracts

SWIM found most of the other extracts worthless. The 15 x extracts are more like 2 or maybe 3 times the strength of the leaves. They cost too much and some of them don't exhibit the full spectrum of effects, which kratom has to offer.

A better strategy than buying stronger products is buying more product. SWIY should buy kratom leaves in bigger quantities (more than 100 grams), so swim gets a discount, which is considerable. The price ratio of 20 grams compared to 500 grams is 5:1.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Good info
	Nice compilation of information about kratom consumption forms and their effects/cost relation.

[MzEnthusiastic]

Originally Posted by Stiney

Good thread, thanks for the info. Just to ad something about the kratom pies (sold here as kratom resin or kratom cake). I have little doubt that it will dissolve in your stomach, if you cut off small pieces and suck on them they will dissolve in your mouth, causeing very noticable numbing of the tounge and throat (not unlike when cocaine is taken orally), so I would presume if saliva can dissolve it then stomach acid would make short work of it aswell.

I have also heard that if you dissolve them in a hot beverage first, it's better. I totally agree it will not dissolve in ur stomach

[MzEnthusiastic]

Originally Posted by RxPosterChild

SWIM has recently began using kratom regularly. As far as withdrawing goes, what's a good ball park to when physical symptoms might occur? If it's used everyday for how long? SWIM is very curious.

I hate to double post but i cannot edit....

TPIK takes kratom daily following a m'done detox....and she finds wd's start at about the 12-16hr point..... At about the 10hr mark she finds she begins yawning; watery eyes; lethargic; etc... But by the 16hr point she experiences symptoms like extreme lethary; sweating; dilated pupils; the poops *lol*; etc. Within a half hr of her taking it tho - All is well

[nEone]

To date, SWIM has only dealt with finely powdered premium leaf and an extract enhanced leaf. No real difference between either product was noticed.

SWIM DID notice a difference between the Bali and the Thai - with the Bali having the telltale "waves' of euphoria and Thai being more simple and uplifting.

SWIM has found that a level tablesppon of powdered leaf is a nice subtle place to be - but also finds that the results vary wildy depending on what he's eaten prior (and SWIM has tried the grapefruit juice precursor - but isn't sure how much of a difference it made)

SWIM's source doesn't have pies - but has a kind of crystallized resin which he hopes to try out soon.

In many ways - SWIM thinks Kratom might be an altogether nicer way to start the day than a cup of coffee - if only coffee wasn't so tasty and Kratom wasn't so...not tasty.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thank you for the info in this thread

[Pino]

Red veined Thai leaves

SWIM tried the red veined Thai leaves. He compared them to Bali crushed leaves. He found them more speedy. Swim thinks it is not worth the price. The bali leaves also leaves swim more dreamy, which swim likes more.

Summary of experiences

Swim had 28 grams of the Thai leaves. They were dried, not destemmed and not powdered.

Swim first tried 3 grams of Thai leave, which gave him a small lift in his mood. He had to run too the bus station, which was really fun to do.

Swim then tried 10 grams of the Thai leave, which made him do some serious cleaning in his house. They didn't seem to have the euphoric properties of the bali leaves.

After this one, swim tried 15 grams mixed with 10 grams of Bali. This was a really strange experience. Swim was in a dreamy state, like normal, but couldn't sleep well. Just kept waking up. Until 6 o' clock were swim woke up and had to get out of bed, because he had quite a hangover. He felt tense, had a terrible headache, and his hands were shaky. Swim thinks he overdosed the stuff a little bit.

Effects

Positive

• Mood lift in small dosages.
• Gives more energy in small dosages.
• Works motivational in small dosages.
• The taste.

Negative

• Seems to lack the euphoria.
• The price

Effects of overdose (general for kratom):

• Nausea, vomiting.
• Shakiness, unsteady on feet.
• Dysphoria, anxiousness.
• Difficulties urinating.
• Sleeplessness.
• Respiratory Depression.
• Hangover (a nasty headache and some lethargy, probably due the sleeplessness.)

For some unknown reason to swim, the red veined Thai leaves swim tried were quite different in respect to the Bali leaves. It also tasted better than the Bali powder less bitter. The effect was more energizing were the Bali leaves are more sedating. SWIM doesn't have much tolerance to kratom at the moment, however somewhat more than the drug naive user. SWIM needs about 15-20 grams for nodding off on kratom, were 20+ makes him fall asleep.

Conclusion

Swim likes the Bali leaves more than the Thai leaves in higher dosages. In small dosages it is the other way around. The Thai leaves have more effect in that region.

Of course this isn't representative for all sources of Thai leaves. SWIM only had a small batch of 28 grams of the stuff. The strength of kratom can vary wildly from batch to batch even from the same supplier.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	well formulated and informative
	well described experience
	Great info here.

[0utrider]

the problem that you can't sleep is also known to users of opioids and usually occurs if you have a little more than usual, if you dose higher

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good observation, it is not a problem solely to Thai kratom.

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by outriderx

Intake / dosage
....taking it with capsules.
I prefer the capsule method: simply order 500 capsules (size 000, the largest) from ebay for a couple of bucks.....

Good, informative, post.

I agree with you about the intake methods entirely. Gel caps are the best way to go! But how do you the the powder into 000 caps?

[Pino]

Originally Posted by outriderx

the problem that you can't sleep is also known to users of opioids and usually occurs if you have a little more than usual, if you dose higher

Yes, you are right. It occurred mainly at the overdose event (with 15 grams Thai and 10 grams Bali). He will get it of the list. Swim was a little bit cranky about it The same is true for the hangover; it is only present, when the dose is too high.

[Pino]

Has some swiy fed his labanimal some Maeng da Kratom lately? Swim has heard many stories, but many of these stories seemed to have the word ' phenomenal' in it. So swim would like to hear some other opinions.

The most 'reliable' first hand information swim could find was:

Maeng Da's subjective effects seem to vary quite widely between individuals. Most agree that it is energising and very fast-acting, and of short duration. It is very potent at first but seems to quickly build tolerance. There is some question as to the consistency of its quality, especially given current concerns as to the present quality of other types of kratom from its source.

I have sampled it personally and found it to be noticeably active at around 2 grams, with 3 grams being a nice energising level. It is certainly the strongest leaf that I have tried, but not twice as strong as others, maybe 1.5 times as strong as normal high-grade Thai. I doubt very much that it could be ten times stronger than ANY kratom. The strength is debatable however, as the effects are spread over a shorter period than most other kratoms, so it affects you faster and harder but wears off a lot quicker - it's like a "fast release" kratom that gives up its alkaloids more easily than others.

The Maeng Da source claims psychoactivity from 1g, but I doubt that this is true, though I haven't tried it. 2g was certainly quite mild, and that was the first time that I sampled it, so I wouldn't have developed any tolerance to that strain. My normal kratom dosages are low, maybe 4g or so for high-grade leaf, and I prefer the more stimulating types, so Maeng Da would naturally appeal to me.

This post makes swim wonder, whether this is kratom at all. Has anyone some more information about this?

[AceOvArts]

Thanks for that info, very useful

[samm2]

Originally Posted by Pino

Has some swiy fed his labanimal some Maeng da Kratom lately? Swim has heard many stories, but many of these stories seemed to have the word ' phenomenal' in it. So swim would like to hear some other opinions.


The most 'reliable' first hand information swim could find was:

Maeng Da's subjective effects seem to vary quite widely between individuals. Most agree that it is energising and very fast-acting, and of short duration. It is very potent at first but seems to quickly build tolerance. There is some question as to the consistency of its quality, especially given current concerns as to the present quality of other types of kratom from its source.

I have sampled it personally and found it to be noticeably active at around 2 grams, with 3 grams being a nice energising level. It is certainly the strongest leaf that I have tried, but not twice as strong as others, maybe 1.5 times as strong as normal high-grade Thai. I doubt very much that it could be ten times stronger than ANY kratom. The strength is debatable however, as the effects are spread over a shorter period than most other kratoms, so it affects you faster and harder but wears off a lot quicker - it's like a "fast release" kratom that gives up its alkaloids more easily than others.

The Maeng Da source claims psychoactivity from 1g, but I doubt that this is true, though I haven't tried it. 2g was certainly quite mild, and that was the first time that I sampled it, so I wouldn't have developed any tolerance to that strain. My normal kratom dosages are low, maybe 4g or so for high-grade leaf, and I prefer the more stimulating types, so Maeng Da would naturally appeal to me.

This post makes swim wonder, whether this is kratom at all. Has anyone some more information about this?

SWIM is not happy with Maeng Da he has, doesn't seem better than plain Bali.maybe swim got bad batch or something, but definitly not PHENOMENAL for swim.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Haha, swim already thought so, tnx!

[AceOvArts]

SWIM regularly uses 1.8g of Ultra Enhanced Indo for a very smooth ride. SWIM usually just weighs out the powder, pours it into his mouth then takes a large glug of any liquid to help it slide down. However, last night SWIM found this method a little more difficult than usual so tonight he may mix up the powder in a smoothie.

[Calaquendi]

~I love this place!
SWIM has tried a few diff't 'types' and vendors and only recently gotten like, anything halfway substantial from kratom. this is likely due to the fakt SWIM was on methadone for many years and is only now able to pursue other agents that 'bind' to opiate receptors. the ole "toss and wash" seems to be an appropriate/effektive measure but its kinda like eating wet shit rolled in sand. SWIM is a hard head and like, needs.. usually more than others to get similar fx. does ne one have experience with a strain known as "korth"? SWIMs read good things about this supposedly coveted strain but there are many turds out there lacking scruples in the guise of vendors, so needs must like, sift thru these forums for reliable (and believable) data. thanx for the thread and hope ive done this by the rules, as im still like, new. dooby-doob

[AceOvArts]

SWIM is currently enjoying a few different versions of Kratom.
Ultra Enhanced Indo @ 1.5g - 2g per dose
Enhanced Bali @ 4g - 6g per dose
Red Vein Thai @ 4g - 6g per dose
SWIM measures these amounts out in "00" gelcaps (at around 0.5g per gelcap)
and swallows them.
This seems to do the trick for SWIM

Reputation Comments on this post:

usable dosage observation

[0utrider]

maybe we can add some information in order to make it a sticky? like dependence & W/D symptoms

[psyche]

SWIM has had variable experience with extracts, and they don't seem to always give bang for the buck. Especially the ones he ordered from a shop where they didn't even tell how strong the extract was. They only had dosage recommendations. Now that's low. He has had his best experiences with leaf boiled into tea. SWIM thinks kratom doesn't taste so bad, it's almost enjoyable. About 20grams of leaf and stem powder put swim into a very nice dreamlike state, though he had to puke before that, but it wasn't bad at all.

By the way, anyone had experience with full spectrum alkaloidal extract, that claims 89% alcaloid content?

[0utrider]

maybe some more of this could be used for the wiki, if one has time to do that

[AceOvArts]

Something that SWIM uses if nausea is startting to rear its ugly head is GINGER, SWIM suggets 1-1.5g of ground ginger, it work to stop nausea every time for SWIM

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for that post, helped swim

[0utrider]

ground = dry-powdered ginger, like SWIm could obtain in supermarkets?

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by outriderx

ground = dry-powdered ginger, like SWIm could obtain in supermarkets?

That ginger loses a little potency but not much imo. You could always buy a piece of ginger root and grate or grind it yourself or even slice it thinly. You can find cheap really fresh Ginger root in a asian market if you have one close by, if not most if not all Supermarkets carry ginger root check the ethnic aisle.