Drug info - The Analgesic in Leech Oil, (the secretions of medicinal leeches)

[ironmics]

I haven't read through the entire post so sorry if this has been said. Leeches contain a pretty potent local anathestic too, I don't know if that would be safe to ingest or not. Also frogs are only toxic and create those substances if they are in the wild. The metabolize it out of something they eat. Captive bred frogs are not poisonous, I'm not sure if they create opiates though on their own. I know epibadine(sp?) is a very effective non-opiate analgesic frog secreation that can not be obtained in a lab setting.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

And swim is guessing that when you do get this done we here at DF will be first to know?Hmm does swiy need any human guinea pigs for this?Or will swiy be testing it on themselves?

[tayo]

oh SWIM has a robot guinea pig. it's all good.

d-f would be the first to know.... knowledge should be free, tayo's robot doesn't need appreciation just self-satisfaction from advances in science... assuming something from this happens. SWIMs robot wont be a scumbag and sell some strange patent to a pharmaceutical company that would make leeches extinct. *second thoughts*heh. The only fear swim has is that if robot guinea pig smokes leech slime resin or isolated compound or snorts if possible, and it doesss work... and it gets posted here, then dope fiends, then subsequently the government will make leeches scheduled/endangered/prescription only... as well as people just trying to get high overdosing, experimenting unethically toward living creatures. NPR would talk monotonously on the radio then barack obama would have a stance on it and clinton would detest the control. basically leech havock.

but when these leeches arrive, any ideas on milking their saliva, maybe letting one suckle and then drop some blood on surface that a leech couldn't attach to, so it juices saliva until it gets tired? maybe like a mirror? or maybe let one suckle and leave a trail of blood on a mirror and scrape up leech slime? soak coffee filter in blood and maybe leech saliva would gush right through? swim thinks they only produce the morphine-like stuff when salivating upon near contact with a source of food, and swim's robot would like to isolate the stuff without blood in it...

suggestions?

ahhhh... the things robots will do for science...

[Nagognog2]

Remember: In the USA, you can't pantent a naturally occuring substance. That's why the drug industry is so against cannabis.

[Orchid_Suspiria]

You can still sell a naturally occuring substance though right?St.Johns wort,valerian,gingko to name a few.

[tayo]

One could patent a process of extraction and synthesis using leech oil as a precursor though.... and

SWIM got leeches today, tayo's robot will be experimenting...

[tayo]

swim's leech is feeding and swim feels a runner's high, like an endogenous painkiller. plus whatever the leech is using. no sedation but good euphoric feeling after feeling suction, there is some pain but not more than a someone pinching skin every 15 seconds, which would create a natural pain response. also the leech is swelling big time, like 5x orginial size, supposedly it will take 10-15ml of blood, and then drop off. swim thinks its amazing. (cutters get endorphins and numbing feelings, they like the pain, its like that kind of rush)

also collected saliva from leech using droplets of blood on a mirror. and after initial feeding will collect bleeding blood for use to collect more pure saliva on mirror, to stimulate their salivation to get the morphine-like substance out.

after writing the above, swim just feels plain high and good. omg, feeling increasing feeling damn good, whatever that leech is putting in to SWIM, or causing SWIM to produce it makes swim feel greeeaaat. feeling numb.

[Micklemouse]

The self-harm comparison is interesting - there is indeed an addictive quality to it I think. Be careful not to let your robots get too atteched (if you'll pardon the pun) to the endorphins involved.

Also be careful with allowing them to feed on your robots - good wound care is a must. Remember that leech bites contain anticogulants, so no blood thinning medications or drugs should be used around letting - ibuprofen, SSRI's, alcohol for example.

I would seriously advise not practising blood-letting on one's own, or on one's robots - stick to fresh meat. From the butcher or abbatoir.

[tayo]

this is true, the wound on the robot continued to bleed, and likely will, continue to bleed out for a while. swim gave robots bandaids with gauze on top and tape, working fine. Yeah, is there an ointment that is a coagulant? just curious, you never hear about clotting medications really, because blood clots, especially in arteries are bad. but what is the disease where the blood will not clot and what is the medication they're given in the event that they need it to? anyone know?

1 liter of blood is taken out when giving blood, and one leech takes 10-15ml of blood over about 45 minutes, also anemics, beople with low blood pressure should not use leeches

[Bajeda]

Hemophilia is the hereditary disorder where you don't clot blood properly I believe. Not sure about meds for it, but I'm sure a quick search online should net some results.

[tayo]

Thanks, yeah the incision is in a y-shape and bleeds quite a bit. Robot found a spray with cellulose and calcium in it that essentially clots partially, and a product called new-skin can create a layer over that to stop bleeding. and then robot uses a band-aid/gauze, something that absorbs moisture. Applying pressure and icing the wound would also lessen bleeding.
and swim knows that leech saliva releases nitrous oxide into the blood which is a vasodilator that even bodybuilders look to increase. Also the most potent thrombin inhibitor, (hirudin), is in the saliva, so no anticoagulants should be used, especially not aspirin or alcohol or arginine(vasodilator), no nitrates for chest pain, people with high blood pressure, low blood pressure, and those using stimulants also would not be a good idea, and also reported ginseng can increase bleeding. Replace gauze when needed, sterilize wound, although there are natural antibotics and antigens within leech saliva, also leeches can contain intestinal parasites but cannot be transfered to humans unless force-removed before they're done feeding and regurgitation occurs. Overall robot has lost probably a 1/2 liter of blood over 4 hours.
donating blood =1 liter in ten minutes.

[tayo]

swit took some of the robot's blood loss, put it on a mirror, it clotted, let 2nd hungry leech loose on mirror, and it went after the clots, saliva on the clots made the blood lighter and remain unclumped interestingly, for good, after most of clotting had been turned back to unclumped blood, the last dime sized clot... the leech pushed away and separated from the other unclotted blood, segregating the clotted and unclotted blood, which was interesting. anyway, unclotted blood mixed with leech saliva was dried afterswit got tired of waiting for leech to finish so it was dropped back in container.

now... unclotted blood was dried, scraped together with razor blade, and was dry and crystal-like enough to be snorted. the consistency would have made a perfect snort, although tayo's robot wouldn't snort dried blood because well, too strange maybe? How does swit remove the blood first (at least the color)... from the rest of the saliva and most importantly, the morphine-like compound? (assume it's morphine) would the redness and the human components of blood be destroyed by 95% ethanol?... yet possibly leave this morphine-like compound? tayo's robot doesn't like the taste or smell of blood or the color... but if a morphine-like compound were vaporized or smoked, and tayo's robot felt high, would this conclude that SWIUS can get high on leech saliva, or could it be something in human blood. tayo's robot will not smoke/snort anything with blood in it. but is merely theorizing

sorry if these posts are disturbing for hemophobics, but science can be that way.

according to this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticoagulants, anticoagulants are mixed in with IV bags for blood transfusion to keep it from clotting, as well as used in test tubes to keep it from clotting. so that's what this leech slime is doing?.. when it dries, is it the plasma leaving the blood?

[Bio-Cellular Enigma]

SWIM thought it worth noting that people need blood donations more than leeches do. A public service message - SWIM now returns you to your friendly neighborhood drugs-forum .

P.S. interesting (even fascinating), but - snorting blood? That is a new one to SWIM. He hopes cocaine users don't get any strange ideas while urinating .

[tayo]

good announcement..

but many out there may also be withdrawing heroin addicts need leeches to induce endogenous morphine rushes as well as recieve the morphine-like substance that is put into the host by the leech. (still investigating research). it's the leech's way of symbiosis in the event it could help an opiate addict through withdrawls.
tayo's robot says that whatever the leech is injecting into robot is just as good as other opiates, maybe better, and healthier (at least in compensation for instance in withdrawals). depending on dose withdrawing from, maybe it would take several leeches to achieve the same amount of painkillers.

maybe some day leeches can be used for pain management.

after bite bleeding is the only neiussance, really.

[Micklemouse]

Tayo, before proceeding further with these experiments you need to do some serious research into the safety aspects of what you are doing to your robots - you need to look at wound care, the properties of leech saliva & the nature of their feeding habits, possibility of infection, that sort of thing.

This is a forum geared towards harm reduction, & this is veering away from that. You do not seem to have thought this though fully at all. When you have this information, pm me with it, including links & sources for information.

Edit - thread reopened for the time being at least for editing purposes. Please keep any new information research & safety based, referencing all material. Theory is fine, conjecture is not - back up theories with information & other's ideas. Outside of a clinical environment there is no place for guesswork or random experimentation.

Reputation Comments on this post:

thank you

[tayo]

Just a note, the leech that drew blood from a knee area of robot that had some swelling from use on an 18 month old surgery relieved pain, tayo's robot usually wakes up with pain/aches in that knee and didn't this morning, also had a better quality of sleep, probably due to the lack of aches in the knee at night.

a good link to basic leech info

http://www.amonline.net.au/factsheets/leeches.htm

[Micklemouse]

From the above link -

Gut bacteria can cause wound infection. In the post-operative use of leeches this is closely monitored and dealt with by use of the appropriate antibiotic.

What precautions were taken to prevent infection on the first place? It is factors such as this that need to be taken into account here, & which should be highlighted when talking about this subject - not doing so gives the impression that this is a safe practice, when it is potentially very much not!

Re: the knee issue - was this a temporary relief, or did the removal of blood from the affected area give any lasting benefit?

[tayo]

YES SWIY DONT TRY THIS AT HOME ...haha

Knee ache gone for a few days... also, the gut bacteria (according to wikipedia's source) are usually only regurgitated when the leech is stripped off and some is regurgitated, but if it falls off because it has had its fill then it is not an issue. but obviously infection from other things, such as scratching the wound can cause problems. but anyway a whole lot of alcohol rubbing before and after. and antibiotic ointments after, several applications, one every time gauze needed replacement. and swim's leeches were farm bred, not caught, which at least lessens likeliness of gut bacteria. Also, the link swim posted might be referring to another type of leech, there is an amazonian leech that sticks a straw into the vein rather than teeth, a straw being like the things mesquitos have to suck blood. those can cause more problems. their saliva, not gut bacteria, has its own antibiotics/antigens in it too.

[tayo]

http://www.zaner-bloser.com/resource...rade6_se14.pdf

"Scientists are studying many other substances that leeches make. Leeches can safely store the blood they drink for months. An antibiotic the leech produces keeps the blood from spoiling. A strong antibiotic such as this may have many uses in people."

Reputation Comments on this post:

A fascinating area of discussion.

[tayo]

ah yes.... another thing to be noted... just speculation but...

SWIM thinks it would be a very bad idea to put a leech on ANY OF YOUR MAJOR ARTERIES (neck, near armpit on inner arm bicep, inner thigh, there are more check your anatomy), or anywhere a vein is visibly blue (wrists, just be smart). and probably the worst idea is to put one on your belly button... that would maybe.. if you had an "innie" give you an "outtie" or maybe give you a hernia or maybe just suck your insides out.

... just to let people know in case someone out there is going to experiment.

[boizm]

SWIM is extremely fascinated by this thread. Enough so to make it home to his first post. Please, if there is any more to say regarding your SWIY's expreience, SWIM would love to hear it. Like the current condition of SWIY's knee?

[tayo]

SWIM felt acute relief and like there was more blood flow to the region for about 3 to 5 days after and noticed better sleep patterns, not constantly shifting leg positions to comfort aches. The surgery was a year and a half ago but obviously when a tendon from the hamstring is taken out and put in as a new ACL, and meniscus and cartilidge a repaired, it can take a while, it definitely relieved alot of pain and if SWIY has read the entire thread will see that it creates natural endorphins just as self-harm/cutting can do as well as this "morphine-like compound" and can essentially get you high and have health benefits. SWIM is going to get them hungry again, and probably purchase more... and allow for them to salivate in a dry area for a while and collect saliva... method of administration is undetermined as of now, though. will likely mix with alcohol and let evaporate and re-collect the residue, just to get rid of any possible pathogens, then depending on how this residue looks, (SWIM imagines it will be a gooey clump of something), will probably put into a capsule, start with one then increase capsule intake after an hour if nothing is felt, but... if something is felt, hopefully it will not be a placebo effect, and will be some sort of breakthrough that a living animal can produce an orally active pain killer, ("morphine-like"-the conductor that said he isolated a compound won't respond to SWIMs emails...maybe he knows something we don't, but the man is also french) that is found in large enough amounts to milk from maybe just a few leeches, but the step after that would be seeing if it is smokeable or if it would destroy under heat. But if the world could have a pet that produced a morphine-like compound, SWIM thinks it'd be a pretty popular pet, and doesn't think that leeches are gonna go prescription any time soon. And SLOM-ing (Sticking Leeches On Myself) is that term from the anti-drug commercial... did they know leeches do get you high...? haha suckers, they started it! SWIM knows there are others experimenting with this too that will probably post at some point. The biggest thing here we've all agreed on though is, safety first everybody!

[tayo]

another thing SWIM didn't realize is that blood in a tincture bottle, even if anticoagulated... should be frozen or refrigerated or not kept at all... because SWIM opened a bottle to dump it out and SWIM thinks he knows what dead bodies smell like now... SWIM was originally going to use it again just to make the leeches salivate by dropping a little blood on a mirror and making a very thin coat... but yeah old blood smells like dead bodies!

[Orchid_Suspiria]

Swim also got on the leech bandwagon and ordered some.Today swim applied one to his arm.Oddly swim felt a sort of high,what could be compared to a very low codeine dose.Swim is not sure if this could have been placebo or if something was really happening?

[snapper]

This is really pushing the envelope and really gross, but SWIM hopes something comes of it. It would make a great media headline. Now the next step is to research the chemistry of other leech species. The medical ones are all one species, but there may be more potent goodies in other ones. SWIM will not be submitting any subjects to this line of experimentation, though...SWIM wouldn't be able to stomach it...
Also, SWIM thinks that blood cells in an extract is not a good thing. However, centrifugation would at least remove all of the solids - perhaps some filtered washes would do it to. There would still be serum, but that leaves far less biological material to decompose.