Health - If LSD were to uproot a dormant schizophrenic condition in a user...

[Dalfir]

How long would it take before the user would feel the negative effects? It seems that one of the triggers of a bad trip, is the user having incredibly strange thoughts and then thinking to themselves, they'd only be able to think something like that if the drug had permenantly messed then up, then they get into a cycle of thinking that it's finally happened and the acid has driven them insane, that it's woken a dormant mental condition and now they're never going to come down. ie; the "I'm never going to be sane again" fear.

From what I understand reading interviews with Humphry Osmond, is that LSD mimics the free-associative thoughts and distorted cognitive processes that are common in a sufferer of schizophrenia. Is this pretty accurate?

So if someone had a dormant, yet severe, condition that gets made active by LSD, would the effects basically be the same as only semi-coming down from the trip? Would the random thoughts, broken phrases and distorted thinking still be present until they get medical treatment? Or are the effects far more subtle?

Would the user actually have any accuracy in pin-pointing the moment a dormant condition gets awakened during a trip, or would the effects only manifest a long time after?

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Fantastic thread, great questions and responses. Don't worry :) The ones who should be worried are the ones with a quiet...

[Nagognog2]

A full-scale triggering of a latent (dormant) mental illness from LSD-25 et al would be quite evident to the person undergoing such - as well as to friends and family. This was termed a "temporary psychosis" in the 1960's and '70's when thousands of people partook in these drugs.

It was called "temporary" as it usually was. And taking the person undergoing it to a hospital could land them in a mental-ward. This would serve, quite often, to lock the mindset in place. It could then become permanent.

The thought-disorders, random associations, and paranoid structure exhibited would be indistinguishable from that which occurs without a psychedelic trigger. And the person undergoing this usually knows what the thoughts that rolled in were responsible for what has been called the "snap" that split their mind apart. They usually know how and what - but are unable to control it. Rather like being an observer to two madmen doing battle on a stage.

Helping a person undergoing such an advanced form of a 'bad trip' requires a great deal of skill and insight. You need to address the part of themself that is sane - but not in control at present. Re-assure them they will come back together in due course. And tell them they can tell you what was the trigger.

Doing this for someone this deeply involved requires a seminar - not a quick answer in a thread here. It's a precarious situation at best. But if you ever encounter this - do your best to keep the person out of the hands of standard doctors unless they are suicidal and/or dangerous. Though this is a rare occurance, it is the most dangerous occurance with psychedelics.

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great post, extremely clear and to the point

[Nagognog2]

Hup Ho! ^^^ Up you go!

[Dalfir]

I think the concept of being able to think thoughts so complex(?) they tear your mind apart is quite creepy. Has anyone been able to remember what it was about those thoughts that landed them in that position? How temporary is the condition? I mean, being stuck in an acid trip for more than a few days must be seriously delibitating.

SWIM has had quite a few "bad-trip tinged" moments on LSD, when he's gotten himself into such a deep state of visual thought that the image of him actually splitting into two entities is pronounced, he'll then think to himself "That's it. That's the thoughts and images that have driven me insane. I'm never coming down from this trip." Luckily, he doesn't dwell on those thoughts for too long, but they can be unnerving. When you're sure you've just become schizophrenic and your brain is telling you. He's had moments of overlapping thought lines, where there'll be a dominant "voice in his head" thats babbling some weird psychedelic stuff and underneath it, a more serious and sane sounding "Fuck, I'm going insane" voice. Both of them running through his mind at the same time, while one is more prevalent. He was sure this multi-threaded thinking was an indicator of his madness.

So awakening a dormant condition through LSD can also severely aggravate it and cause their bad trips to become more imprintened in their mind?

Has this condition ever happened to someone during a very euphoric trip? Or is a bad trip always a precursor of temporary psychosis, almost a premonition?

[Nagognog2]

It is always from a societal problem the person has - a conflict if you will. With the defence-mechanisms ripped away from the drug - the valve in the mind is disabled. Then all hell breaks loose.

A common one from the 60's and 70's was a person discovering , in the highly open mind of LSD, that they loved both sexes. This became "Homosexual-Panic" - and the mind would split apart into the "Yes I do" & "No I don't" personas. Get the idea? Meanwhile in the mental-wards, homosexuality was considered a mental illness. So if the person landed there - they were reassured they were sick and of course they were nuts!

You can guess the result. Whereas a warm arm and a hug and an okay - even if the person was still split - would get through and help them re-integrate their self.

[Dalfir]

Yeah, I can definitely understand that. Is this split repairable, through professional mental doctoring? Or is it permanent?

SWIM has sometimes brought back some semi-disturbing mental images from his trip that still pop up quite frequently in his sober, waking state. He can imagine what more dominant and traumatic recurring thoughts could do.

[Nagognog2]

Repairable is the wrong term. But yes - it loses it's charge as one accepts such and finds an outlet to express the image/vision found. Art: Music. Drawing. Writing. This helps to speed up reintegration, while expressing what was found.

It's not that it's something to push aside. It's there to teach. And the lesson is a powerful one that keeps coming until it's accepted. This sort of "trip" is the most powerful one. Or the most frightening one. Usually both at once. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

[hh339]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

Repairable is the wrong term. But yes - it loses it's charge as one accepts such and finds an outlet to express the image/vision found. Art: Music. Drawing. Writing. This helps to speed up reintegration, while expressing what was found.

It's not that it's something to push aside. It's there to teach. And the lesson is a powerful one that keeps coming until it's accepted. This sort of "trip" is the most powerful one. Or the most frightening one. Usually both at once. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

That is so true and very well put. Awesome thread!

SWiM has doubted the condition of his mental health a few times, and came to about the same conclusions. Especially the part about music, drawing and writing. In retrospect I think it has been an entirely good thing. Educational.

[Dalfir]

I know exactly what you mean, SWIM has had that same experience during a bad trip and has brought back some souveneirs which normally come back to him during weed sessions.

How can someone judge their sanity though? I mean, I have a few voices in my head, one normal, everyday thinking one and other weird, amusing ones. This is the best I can explain it. And I've always taken it for granted that everyone's mind works the same way as this, but now I see that a lot of people who have voices in their head are considered psychotic, while there's a whole foundation assissting people who have pronounced mental voices but live functional lives. When under the influence of psychedelics, the voice in my head is more pronounced and unpredicatble....If that makes senses, and I always fear that that is a sign of insanity. Could someone obsessing over an image from a trip in their creative work, such as painting the same symbol over and over again in different styles or constantly using the a word that was very prominent during their trip be considered insane? Or is that a normal occurrence? SWIM had a strong fascination with the number 18 after an LSD trip and has also kept thinking back to thoughts and little mental-plays he had during the trip. I wish I could it explain it better. During an acid trip, SWIM suddenly thought up a mental persona named "Smade" that represented random paranoia and terror. That thought was so strong that he still mentally refers to and semi-acknowledges that acid induced persona/voice-in-the-head in his sober state. When he gets stoned, the thoughts become more prominent and even get expanded upon. He believes that these thoughts will always stay with him in his memory.

For instance, when he gets stoned he'll think up a mental scenario where he'll ask another person who's used LSD if "they know Smade?" in this bizarre mental movie, the other person will reply he does and an entire history of what Smade is gets revealed.

Weird.

SWIM is stoned right now, and all of a sudden has a fascination with mental illness and the causes thereof that he's never had during his sober state. He's pretty sure that this facscination and interest will follow into his sober state too. If it got to the point where he suddenly changed his college course to studying psychiatry, would that be considered insanity?

At one point I was bulemic, but through sessions of deep thought and, with my mind's voice, I created a type of scenario where I was cleansing myself through a long mental pantomime. This actually allowed me to stop with the bulemia, but basically through the practice of creating motivating personas in my mind's eye who supported me when I was feeling bad. I can imagine this being considered schizophrenia though.

[Nagognog2]

Anyone who is worried about being mentally ill - isn't. Being truly mentally ill precludes one's recognition of the situation. It's normal among introspective people to go through a period of being concerned.

Voices etc. could convince a shrink that one is nuts. Or convince a writer that one has a muse - and be jealous! Being worried gets one more worried and gives one a headache.

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Nice one, highly fascinating and helpful the posting, seems you helped swiD a lot.

[Dalfir]

SWIM's voice is a very imaginitive and pronounced "voice-in-the-head" and he understand it's purely psychological and internal, he doesn't hear it as external audio (SWIM will sometimes hear the voices of people who aren't there laughing, but this is just common audio hallucination. However, when SWIM is under the influence of psychedelics or strong doses of marijuana, this voice becomes more unpredictable and SWIM can spend hours immersed in what it has to say through weird thoughts and inaccurate moments of "revelation". For instance, SWIM will think of something strange and he'll think to himself "If I'm thinking this, then it MUST mean this." Which is obviously not the case. These deep stages of thought have never led to SWIM doing anything hazardous or harmful because he still has moral ability although he finds it interesting to dwell on these new and sometimes disturbing thought processes.

Are the normal and desired effects of psychedelics psychotic in nature? That is, are all LSD trips considered a form of psychosis that lasts 8 to 12 hours but has the the possibility of becoming permanent?

[Benga]

very interesting thread, but hard not avoid falling into simplistic patterns for the complex mechanisms Nag is pointing out.
On voices, under L.S.D. swim has one had a very long experience of a dialog between two voices commenting on swim's thoughts, ideas, decisions. It was odd, slightly annoying at times, but also quite amusing as the voices had timbral qualitities of either the archetypal british housewives or grannies, if not in color in intonation etc...this was over 10 years ago but swim still recalls the pingpong exchanges "ooh so you're going to go there are you ?" - "not a wise choice if you ask me..." "why's that ?" well because, then it will seem"-oh come on, you can't mean that..."
anyway it's hard to recreate, but the dialog always had this argumentative quality, and swim was excluded from it, an image would be maybe having two crows sitting on a wire over swim's head and chewing the fat, like in those cartoons...
it lasted for quite a while ( couple of hours ?) while swim was on his own, walking on the beach, until swim got totally focused in an activity at sunrise, which was swimming around this rock with googles, a rock where thousands of little fish were feeding. This was so overwhelming an experience ( reversed perception, swim was in an aquarium watched by the fish around him) that the voices must have shut up in awe

b

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	Excellent articulation of the internal voices one hears while on LSD.
	Wow, what an amazing experience, thanks for sharing.

[Dalfir]

Originally Posted by benga

very interesting thread, but hard not avoid falling into simplistic patterns for the complex mechanisms Nag is pointing out.
On voices, under L.S.D. swim has one had a very long experience of a dialog between two voices commenting on swim's thoughts, ideas, decisions. It was odd, slightly annoying at times, but also quite amusing as the voices had timbral qualitities of either the archetypal british housewives or grannies, if not in color in intonation etc...this was over 10 years ago but swim still recalls the pingpong exchanges "ooh so you're going to go there are you ?" - "not a wise choice if you ask me..." "why's that ?" well because, then it will seem"-oh come on, you can't mean that..."
anyway it's hard to recreate but it always had this argumentative quality, an swim was excluded from it, an image would be maybe having to crows sitting on a wire over swim's head and chewing the fat, like in those cartoons...
it lasted for quite a while ( couple of hours ?) while swim was on his own, walking on the beach, until swim got totally focused in an activity at sunrise, which was swimming around this rock with googles, a rock where thousands of little fish were feeding. This was so overwhelming an experience ( reversed perception, swim was in an aquarium watched by the fish around him) that the voices must have shut up in awe

b

Haha, yes...That's exactly what I mean! Excellent way of articulating it. SWIM usually gets the fear that because he's hearing voices that seem to have a distinct personality, he's definitely going insane.

During a bad LSD trip, SWIM was terrified he'd killed his friend's cousin. Not because he was thinking "I killed her!" but because he was hearing a voice that spoke about him in the third person. "Yeah, he dropped acid and ended up killing his best friend's cousin. Then he went back to the car, locked himself in and suffocated."

That of course, isn't very fun.

[Henfer]

Dalfir, swim can only sign almost everything swiy says. it's almost frightening how swiy and swim have the same thinking patterns and having his "friend voice" in the head, clearly not hallucinating, but more a dialogue with yourself where the other part, your head, has a real voice.

it really starts to get creepy, when you awake out of extremely deep trance states on LSD, almost deliric, on high dosages 500 mcg+; at this point, swim only has his headset on an turns on the music f**** loud and goes tripping balls in his mind. the stories of the songs become his own life, where the voice of the singer starts arguing with swim's inner voice, and they talk like you're not even there, and then BOOM you wake up and realize, swim's tripping heavy, up to waking up several times, like convoluted "sub-minds" of your own mind, talking to each other and even f**** dreaming of each other, and swim just head to the wall kinda.

this happened in one trip, and it was pure and only LSD, lasted 12 hours and since then, swim's mind feels like he has 1000000 connections to the world, only to provide him with data that his pulsing mind and subminds can argue about, for argument's sake.

dalfir, swiy should never, ever forget: LSD is the one single substance that can alter your mind from the ground, shaking through your whole world. and, in swim's opinion, those who just seek a high, should maybe just smoke bud or do some opiates (for example, swim does cause he loves being high) - those who take LSD should be aware of, and, best would be even, the life changing effects, those should be the CAUSE for LSD.

so, to conclude: dalfir, swiy's experiencing altered mind states after LSD usage, and this is something all LSD users go through. your mind has to work through that shitload of material you pulled out of your sub. if swiy's afraid of more or not sure if it's good for him - please, for gods sake, don't use it anymore.

this is not meant in an insulting way - your mind has to have the ability to handle LSD. yours most probably has. as the bongo ape doc pointed out - as long as you're sane enough to question your sanity, you're not insane. thinking about and choosing insanity (LSD, temporally, mind you) and sanity and switching from each other through LSD usages is a privilege of the sane part of the human race.

[Dalfir]

Well:

"but more a dialogue with yourself where the other part, your head, has a real voice."

SWIM had that before any experience with drugs, he just took it for granted that everyone has a voice-in-their-head. (Like the voice you hear when you read something silenty) SWIM can get into internal dialogues (before and after LSD) which can be amusing (ie, laughing at someone in your mind and mentally insulting them, while keeping a respectful tone to their face.) and problem-solving, having a long think about something and weighing out all the pros and cons and plans of action internally. I'm sure this is something that everyone does, though. Their mind and its voice is their refuge, no one can trespass.

On LSD, SWIMS voice(s) are much more unpredictable and prevalent, a lot like Benga describes, (almost down to the T) which can obviously be random, silly stuff or more sinister. Even occuring mildy when under the influence of cannabis.

Do others experience this on psychedelics?

SWIM gets offended when he overhears ignorant people talking about chowing shrooms or dropping acid just "to get fucked" when they have no idea what they're getting themselves into. SWIM treats LSD with Leary-esque respect and uses it for sessions of soul-searching and self-exploration. He has most definitely become a more ambitious and confident person since using it.

However, since reading up on some mental illness, like clutster II Schizoid behaviour and finding a foundation like "Hearing Voices Foundation" exists, he's somewhat questioned his sanity...Although Nag put any fears of insanity to rest. :P

How in tune - while sober - are others with their internal voice(s)?

[Henfer]

ya, swiy needs to understand that swim had this voice since he can think and he, too, thought, that everybody who "thinks" has to have some kind of internal mental discussion partner, which, essentially are you between two deciding points.

swim does not know people who drop LSD just to be "fucked up". people fear LSD as a destructive, addictive killer drug, and when you take it, you're obviously damned to be a murderer or something along these lines. sounds silly? ya, but that's what people think for real.

swim thinks, that LSD should also not be generally there for everyone to use just to get fucked up. especially dosis 200mcg+, the person that just wanted to trip balls for fun could very well face difficult questions about it self.

as for swim, the so called "ego death" is his target of a trip, and swim reaches this state successfully everytime now. he can also very well understand, that 99.9% of the people are NOT READY to face ego death.

LSD needs to be treated with respect, and needs to be legalized at least for scientfic purposes. as it stands now, the person who wants to fuck their mind and blow their heads off (psychologically) will find a way. the spiritual user who seeks enhanced insight of the world will find a way. the professor who works to find anti migraine medicals, or the doctor who faces patients with schizophrenia and other illnesses, can't use it.

ego death is the nearest you'll come to a purely psychich orgasm that lasts for 4 hours. it's incredible, and at the end, you'll maybe find out, that your ego didn't die, but, for the first time in your life, you actually REALLY listened to yourself.

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Very good post, throught the whole thread you have provided valuable information.

[chAos]

Originally Posted by Henfer

ya, swiy needs to understand that swim had this voice since he can think and he, too, thought, that everybody who "thinks" has to have some kind of internal mental discussion partner, which, essentially are you between two deciding points.

Swim thinks this is normal, as many others he was affraid this wasn't normal so he asked some of his sober friends (well, alchohol users, but no psychedelics). And they also told him they have discussions in their heads .

[Dalfir]

ya, swiy needs to understand that swim had this voice since he can think and he, too, thought, that everybody who "thinks" has to have some kind of internal mental discussion partner, which, essentially are you between two deciding points.

Do a majority of people experience this though? Or would most people think SWIM is crazy describing it?

[Henfer]

would be interesting to know. at least, everybody needs to have a certain kind of "self-communication"... for swim and swidalfir it's their (respective, not to be switched) inner voices.

dalfir, if you want to see it technically: LSD puts you in a self-induced schizophrenic state of the mind, temporally insane. maybe that's the reason, why swim can (directly after a trip) analyze persons and intetions purely of feelings in the blink of an eye? maybe LSD opens us up for the non-verbal ways of communication between people (gestures, pheromones, god knows what).

[Dalfir]

If an LSD trip were to cause a sudden change in the user's personality, such as their fashion style and music taste dramatically changing, would that be considered a form of schizophrenia? Where the persona has split into another, while the old persona gets assimilated or abolished, but not intergrated.

[Nagognog2]

Schizophrenia is a word that gets bantered about frequently by people who have no real knowledge of it's meaning. I'd suggest reading up on it in some medical texts.

From your description, I'd have to say no. When the young (undecided) folks in the 1960's were first exposed to LSD, many of them (males) grew their hair long, started wearing blue-jeans and headbands, and walked out the door with a STOP THIS FUCKING WAR! sign. A month earlier they were Wally from Leave It To Beaver.

Was this schizophrenia? I don't think so!

[VitaminK22]

Swim has never taken LSD yet he has a mental voice, swim just see's it as his mind thinking things over and talking to itself to make the correct decisions that are made everyday, whether they are important or not.
Swim pays alot more attention to his "inner voice" when he smokes weed, as if it becomes louder and harder to ignore, he can hear himself (not literally) making decisions (whether or not he should respond to a conversation that is going on between the group he is with for example).

Taking ketamine seems to turn these thoughts into mental images, swim believes this is why ketamine trips usually reflect upon past experiences or even dreams, because the decisions you and your mental voice make are made by looking upon past experiences (for example, if you say somethin to someone and it offends them, you will not make the same mistake again to the same person or anyone else unless you know it wont cause offense)

Taking ecstacy makes swim pay no attension to the inner voice at all, this happens to most people which is why they forget what they're saying, its also why people chat an awful lot of shit while high on X. Swim believes this is more insane than having the voice inside your that gives you the ability to think.

[Dalfir]

SWID is wondering what the difference between the thought disorder symptoms on a strong LSD trip (around 8 hours in) and psychosis is.

SWID has found that communication with a sober person can be difficult, especially when questions are asked, because the logic and thought patterns SWID uses to answer said questions are sometimes very irrelevant and fragmented, although they make perfect sense to SWID and his altered sense of logic and relevance. I believe it's called Knight's Move Thinking and Tangentiality. Is something like this not considered a delibitating loss of touch with reality? Or is psychiatry itself not applicable in these situations?

Nagognog mentioned cases of people being in a fragile psychedelic state of mind and finding themselves unnecessarily thrown into a psyche-ward, and their mindset would be locked into place.

If someone had taken something like DOC unknowingly and were still feeling the thought disordered effects about 20 hours into the trip, thinking that it should have worn off ages ago, could this be enough of a trigger to lock their mindset in place?

Is there a chance that someone with a latent - yet serious - schizophrenic condition that gets permanently (not temporarily) activated during an LSD will sense that something is very wrong during the trip, or will the schizophrenic symptoms only begin to manifest afterwards? Would the thought disorder experienced during the trip simply not taper away and be very present even after the trip has ended?

[Benjamin Construct]

swim truly believes that dalfir is totally intensed with his own experience ...and find sthat to be ok because swim was once there... swim truly believes that one does not have the right to diagnosi ones self especially while he or she is still within a certain time frame of being high....swim has done some research and has come to a conclusion that while high on lsd the natural ego mind shatters into pices giving way for the subconcious mind to take over depending on the amount of resilance and resistance this may feel like a loss of ones self ...essentially while recoverying the mind puts its self back together , but its not the act of recreating or destruction that makes the process seem insane rather the self talk and odd beliefes one directs at them self while being high or even many months years later.......the self talk and inner dialogue is totally natural ...fear not yourself for all this is taking place with in you..and you yourself have all the answers in the world!!!