Wilderness Programs to counter addiction

[Gozaggss]

Originally Posted by toe

Abusive brainwashing treatment programs have indeed ultimately been responsible for the deaths of hundreds- some in program, and many more from suicide thereafter. This site has details on over 40 victims from a single site of the most notorious torture rehab franchise in US history. Many- not all- Wilderness programs are cut of the same cloth. (There are some links on the site for seeking out the good ones, IIRC).

yes. I wasn't trying to say that all therapy programs are good. it all just has to do with the types of pressure they are putting on your child. If you use that very site and use their search engine to find "sagewalk" or even "sage walk" or any other denominations, you'll find nothing. Also, it is widely known that while there is great contraversy over the morality of the stimuli they subject to the teen, the overall turnout is good, if not great. there are always bad apples in everything (not bad apples meaning the kids themselves, but flaws in programs etc)


I'm sure there are thousands of people with terrible stories about therapy programs. but also, there are tens and hundreds of thousands of people who had life-changing experiences. I believe that wilderness therapy can save your life, like it did for my son 3 years ago. But i do acknowledge that wilderness therapy subjects alot of stress onto the people in it. But that's how they get things done.

When people are outside of their element and are uncomfortable and scared, they'll do more to help themselves. it's how my son changed. but the same thing that helps kids in the long run can hurt them in the short term.

My son told me many stories of Sagewalk. there was a girl in his group. we'll call her Hummingbird. Hummingbird was sent to Sagewalk because she was depressed. about 2 weeks in, (what my son called the 2 week hump, which were the hardest weeks there) she grabbed the lid of a tunacan and sliced open her wrists. She cut on herself because that was how she dealt with stress back home. She learned that it didn't help her though. it didn't make it any less hard. she changed. alot. She went home completely changed. she wasn't depressed. she didn't cut. she didn't do drugs. she moved on to high school and was very successful.

The stresses forced on the kids can be interpreted as "cruel" or even "torture" by some. but the fact of the matter is that it works more often than not.

And for those who got home and abused drugs, odds are, they would have done that anyways without the attempted intervention by wilderness therapy.

I am AGAINST all forms of behavior change by using drugs, or abuse, physical, mental, and emotional. but the stuff they do in MOST wilderness therapy camps is proven to work. If the camp is not a passive program, forget about it. the camp cannot make the kid change. if it does, it's the wrong camp for anyone. the camp can make the kid want to change. those camps are gentle, kind, and open-armed.

i'm not trying to convince all of you to drop your torches and pitchforks on this subjuct. i am only tying to educate you that while wilderness therapy may not be moral in some people's eyes, it DOES work.


want more proof? my son is alive.

[x cynic x]

Originally Posted by Gozaggss

Actually Brat camp took place at Sagewalk, which is in Oregon, and i would advise you not to take such a hard stance against wilderness therapy programs because it saved my son's life. he was hooked on meth and was a habitual drinker. he was 15. depressed, attempted suicide twice. me and the Mrs. sent him to Sagewalk for 50 days. he came back completely changed. improved his GPA by 2 whole points, no longer felt depressed, is now an thespian. he's following his dream and has never touched drugs since. it saved his life. so please do not have the belief the Wilderness Therapy programs are cruel. sure. my kid HATED it for the first 25 days, just like everyone does. nobody wants to change. but out in harsh wilderness, they have to change and become less selfish, or else they wallow in self-pity and angst. nobody wants to change, but they do because they need to. they work. maybe not for everyone, but they work.

Okay well, Swiys child was abusing substances and truly needed an extra push to keep him on the right track. But say that Swim has a controlled usage and is deported under the 'stereotypical-junkie' image Swiys child puts out for everyone else. Then Swim would be miserable because they would be treated in the same manner Swiys son was treated, like someone who shovels chemicals into his body with no limits. Swim would feel wrongfully accused, and would never be able to explain "Well, I know it's illegal, but I took proper precautions to prevent any harm associated with said substances" to the biased counselors.

[Gozaggss]

don't say Swim. he's my child. there is alot of drug and alcohol abuse in our family going back several generations. it's not something that any of us have overcome with any simplicity, and for some, it led to their death. Wilderness programs can save lives. people can disagree with that all they want, but it's true. my son is living proof

[ISmokeCigarettes]

-Frowns- Swim didn’t say kids are dying in these treatments...if Swim had made such an argument Swim would’ve indicated here Swim found evidence of this, though it is interesting to learn kids have, thanks for sharing that little fact. No matter how few kids have died in these programs one life is one persons son, one persons child, one persons friend and a person in their own righ, with feelings and thoughts and dreams…dreams which will never ever be realised because they’re dead. Tell the parents of those who’ve lost their children that only a small number of kids have died. That small number could’ve included your son, potentially…then would it matter how few kids have died?

Swim actually said there are casualties...plenty of people aren’t dead, yet the pain they carry with them is ineffable, a lot of the time making them wish for death. That may not be as dramatic, to some, as death, but others may know such pain and believe it can be just as devastating. A person doesn’t have to die to disappear.


This sort of treatment may have helped your son to do as you want him to do, to say the things you want him to say, to be the thespian...but a thespian is an actor...somebody who pretends to be something that inside they are not. He became this after the treatment? Interesting.

Swim has worked with children, with special needs children and children with severe behavioural problems and disorders...Swim has never once encountered a child or youth she hasn’t been able to help in the long term, not to do as others expect and dictate of them, but as they wish to. Swim learnt this through doing something no one ever did with Swim...Swim LISTENED. Swim didn’t shout or order or even punish...Swim explained, Swim listened, Swim offered choice and support, not rule and punishment. Punishment is something to show a person they have done bad and we are determined by our actions teaching children that they themselves are bad…that is just craziness. Children arnt bad. They are a product of their parents, their peers and their society…if they are doing society deemed unacceptable things then the elders around them have failed to succcessfuly socialise these children into society and then how must they feel…not how must those around them feel…but these kids, these innocents…what has been done to them…some wilderness program wont stop them remembering or questioning or being what they’ve become as a consequence to the actions of those around them, though it may make them demonstrate the ‘correct’ behaviours, smile at the right times, say please and take orders. Swim isn’t sadistic and doesn’t want to hurt or institutionalise or dictate to children, Swim listens and compromises and supports...different cultures are different though, Swim recognises this.


Something life changing isn’t always something good. Sexual abuse is life changing, but few (Swim believes) would hold that it is ‘good‘..

Just because something 'works' in the eyes of an adult doesn’t mean it isn’t 'cruel'...Hitler thought his policies 'worked' and they did...concentration camps did exactly what he wanted them to do.

Swim respects that your child now behaves in a way which you deem acceptable and proper, that he says the things you want to hear, but as the mind and all within it has privileged access (that is only the person whose mind it is can truly see and feel what is within it) you can only judge your son on his behaviour…and kids can deceive people pretty well, surely you know this, isn’t it one of the behaviours which qualifies a kid for such programs…oh, and an important skill for a ‘thespian’ to learn?

[ISmokeCigarettes]

Swim does honestly respect that you believe these programs ‘work’. Swim just personally feels rough about them after Swim’s own experiences with such things. Swim cant ever forget what happened to Swim or the rejection and hurt Swim felt being sent away…The program was life changing for Swim too, but as Swim has said…not everything that is life changing is necessarily good. Swim learnt this first hand.

[Gozaggss]

you may have misunderstood me. i didn't want to change my son into a machine. and he hasn't. all i wanted was for him to be ok. he wanted it too. he was addicted and he knew it. he wanted help. he was in N.A. and was in and out of detox clinics all the time and it wasn't my choice. he wanted to be clean. i didn't change him at all. he changed himself. that's the key to these programs. they can't change the child just the same as a parent can't. nobody can force change. all the wilderness therapy does is put the teens into an enviorment where they can change, and change would aid them. you have to want it for it to work. that's why it's such a difficult place to be. because nobody wants to be anything else than they already are (in most cases)


and a thespian is someone who does it on stage, yes. but how does that mean he's fake and simply wants to hide and pretend to be someone/somewhere else? he's always wanted to be an actor. creative outlets are very healthy.

[hoodabudda]

Originally Posted by ISmokeCigarettes

Swim does honestly respect that you believe these programs ‘work’. Swim just personally feels rough about them after Swim’s own experiences with such things. Swim cant ever forget what happened to Swim or the rejection and hurt Swim felt being sent away…The program was life changing for Swim too, but as Swim has said…not everything that is life changing is necessarily good. Swim learnt this first hand.

not a day goes by that i dont think about provo.........

[dogzz]

Swim would like to get some input from those that have been sent to these camps. Swim's not even implying swiy had a drug problem, Swim's assuming your parents thought so though. We all have done our share of trying stuff out....hell swim kept tryin it all for 30+ years. IF Swiy had a drug problem before, OR if swiy realized drugs were a problem after the program.....What Does swiy think SHOULD have been done to help? what, if anything did work? It's kinda obvious what is messed up about these programs.

Granted, in the perfect world, the parents would work this out with their kids. In the real world, not all parents are great parents, on the flip side, kids are going to be kids....Some are going to be rebels and outta control. So here is the scenario.....Swiy has a child of their own....the child is rebeling, out of their control and REALLY seems to have a severe drug problem....lets say heroin, or meth along with booze. Swiy has tried everything.......( having been through this ) What would swiy want for the child? Any thoughts or ideas swiy wishes was there for swiy? ANYTHING that did, or could have been done to help? What would you want or wish for if it were your child, and not swiy? The one and only thing swim sees that are a big plus to these types of programs, is no access to more drugs. There WILL be at least some clean time where real feelings and thoughts are coming through. Thanks for any and all input

[hoodabudda]

Originally Posted by dogzz

Swim would like to get some input from those that have been sent to these camps. Swim's not even implying swiy had a drug problem, Swim's assuming your parents thought so though. We all have done our share of trying stuff out....hell swim kept tryin it all for 30+ years. IF Swiy had a drug problem before, OR if swiy realized drugs were a problem after the program.....What Does swiy think SHOULD have been done to help? what, if anything did work? It's kinda obvious what is messed up about these programs.

Granted, in the perfect world, the parents would work this out with their kids. In the real world, not all parents are great parents, on the flip side, kids are going to be kids....Some are going to be rebels and outta control. So here is the scenario.....Swiy has a child of their own....the child is rebeling, out of their control and REALLY seems to have a severe drug problem....lets say heroin, or meth along with booze. Swiy has tried everything.......( having been through this ) What would swiy want for the child? Any thoughts or ideas swiy wishes was there for swiy? ANYTHING that did, or could have been done to help? What would you want or wish for if it were your child, and not swiy? The one and only thing swim sees that are a big plus to these types of programs, is no access to more drugs. There WILL be at least some clean time where real feelings and thoughts are coming through. Thanks for any and all input

having been to one i would have to say i would send my kid to one for about a month but the whole time he was there i would tell him hes going to be there for at least 6mos probably closer to a year though. its kinda like a beating cancer type of thing. he would probably be very grateful for me pulling him from the program and have a new out look on life. that is the closest to being helpful these places could possibly be. but shit i popped my first adderall within 10 min of getting home after 6 mos so it depends on how strong of a personality the kid has. these places depend on first breaking the child down by solitary confinement, taking of personal items/clothes and then shaping the kid from there. that is all theory though they did everything they could to me and i still didnt give in. i sat in the iso cell in my boxers for close to 3 mos of my stay.

[static_vodka_420]

one of swims good friends in high school was shipped off to one of those..from swims understanding it was a horrible experience..the 1st step basically dehumanized everyone..theywere all put into uniforms, had there hair trimmed to exact standards, had all personal belongings including things like family photos and journals confiscated my friends very expensive ipod was also confiscated and never returned.. they were to do repetitive tasks and take long hikes throughout the day even if exhausted.. swims friend suffered emotional abuse from the "guards" which left him depressed upon his return whih led him into heavy benzo and alcohol use( he only smoked cannabis before this) also swims friend was basically forced to canoe for several hours every day and now has chronic pain in his lower back and taIL BONE. from swims understanding nutrition was basically the same as school lunch food aka shitty.

however swimn does understand that for some these programs work very well but swim would bet those cases are the people who check themselves in for a a real addiction..not the ones mommy and daddy shipped off when they found a joint in his room.. thats purelly speculation on swims part though

[chillinwill]

Red Rock has been on 2 of these....One was in the mountains of Virginia and West Virginia and the other was in Oregon and the only good thing they did was get him totally away from his using atmosphere. There was no possible way he could get drugs into this thing as they took away all possessions including phone, watch, etc. They made Red Rock journal and some self-question type worksheets and lots of group activities and whatnot. Out of the two, the one in VA and West VA was the best but he still despises these wilderness programs.