Opinions - Strong sleeping pill

[mark_v]

Please note this is an old thread, and the earlier posts were made before the self incrimination rule came into play

I always had trouble with sleeping, but the last few months it got worse and worse.


I've been to many doctors and therapists, but that got me nowhere.


I got stuff like Tranxene and Ambien, but that didn't helped a thing.


Now my doctor put me on Efexor ( AD ) , but that only makes my problem worse, still can't sleep.


So i did a little research on my own and got me some Diazepam and Lorazepam.


That helped a lot, but i build up a high tolerance pretty fast.


So now i have to take 5 mg of Lorazepam and 25 mg Diazepam to get a good night rest.


So my question is, are there any strong sleeping pills that can help me out ?


Some strong stuff that knocks me out fast .


I know that stuff is addictive and you can suffer from amnesia, but i just want to sleep.


Maybe some rohypnol, triazolam or lormetazepam ??


Any suggestions ?
Thanx in advance

[Gahaba22]

You should look into getting some Ambien (zolpidem). It is the best sleeping medication on the market-with the least side effects. You should be able to take 5mgs to get to sleep, maybe 10mgs. But don't take any more than that otherwise you will build up tolerance. If you do stop taking the Benzos (Diazepam and lorazepam) you need to decrease you dosages gradually so as not to get withdrawals. PM me if you need any further advice

geeb

[mark_v]

Originally Posted by gahaba22

You should look into getting some Ambien (zolpidem). It is the best sleeping medication on the market-with the least side effects. You should be able to take 5mgs to get to sleep, maybe 10mgs. But don't take any more than that otherwise you will build up tolerance. If you do stop taking the Benzos (Diazepam and lorazepam) you need to decrease you dosages gradually so as not to get withdrawals. PM me if you need any further advice

geeb

I'm decreasing my dosages already, because i got some zopiclone and Temazepam. I'm hoping those will make me sleep better. I've tried Zolpidem, but it only helped me a week or so.. After that i had to take more, so i stopped taking them because of the tolerance thingy...


So that's way i looking for something strong, so i don't have to take large amounts of pills...


But thanx to reply

[WhiteRyan]

Get off that effexor. It'll make your 5x more depressed than you were before. People were even saying it was related to suicides. I felt like a empty shell the whole time I was on it. I wasnt depressed anymore...but then again i wasnt happy ever.

[mark_v]

That's right, that efexor makes me feel real miserable.


But what about Loramet (lormetazepam) or oxazepam ?

[Micklemouse]

Sounds like you may have a high tolerance to benzo's and sleepers in general - some folks just don't react to them; I've known people have sleepless nights after 15 mg Zopiclone(in fact they were positively buzzing off it, and that without long term use!).

If the Z drugs don't work, and 5mg loraz + 25 valium is what it takes to get to sleep, it might be time to look at other options - valerian(natural Valium) works a treat, but do your homework and don't do too much as it can cause insomnia and nightmares at high doses; chamomile is totally safe and a fantastic relaxant. Do you drink a lot of caffeine, esp in the evenings? Don't underestimate the power of caffeine to keep you awake! Relaxation techniques can also be a help - don't be afraid to be a hippy for a bit; they may be smelly, but they were on to something!

Effexor(Venlafaxine) is one of the most stimulating antidepressants on the market, boosting the levels of serotonin and noradrenaline in your system(SNRI), and if your doctor thinks it'll help your insomnia he needs a slap!(Out of interest, when do you take it - morning or night? Cos if your doc told you to take it at night he's a fool! It can be a good med for getting people out of bed in the morning, but not for a good nights sleep!). If you do need an antidepressant, a tricyclic like Trazadone might be a better bet - taken at night as it has a powerful sedating edge.

As Geeb says, take it slowly if coming off benzo's, and good luck to ye! Insomnia sucks, but sometimes drugs just don't work...

[mark_v]

Yes, i think i have a high tolerance.


I'm off the diazepam and lorazepam, but now i take 40 mg temazepam and 15 mg zopiclon. That helps, but i have a major hangover in the morning.


And yes, i have to take that Effexor XL before i go to bed, makes me nervous like hell. I also tried Trazolan (an AD too), that made me sleepy, but had too many side effects.


I went to like 4 doctors and a therapist and none of them helped me out, so i did my own research and got me some benzo's.


I've tried a lot of that natural stuff, like valerian, but had no effect on me at all...

[Micklemouse]

That's a shame!

Effexor, esp XL, the time release version, should only be taken in the morning - I don't know what your sleep pattern was like before you started effexor, but taking it at night is equivalent to doing a line of speed, and will be doing you no favours at all. You can safely take a 'holiday'(i.e., miss a dose) from it for 24 - 36 hours so you can realign your dose to mornings, although it is important not to stop taking it altogether,as withdrawal symptoms can be quite harsh!

Are you having your blood pressure monitored? This is recommended for effexor, esp doses above 250mg. Also, hypertension and high blood pressure could have an impact on your sleep pattern.

Also, do you realise that you are on absolute maximum, exceptional dose for both temazepam and zopiclone? Please don't take any more than you are already!!!

My heart goes out to you, as does a prayer for sleep! It sickens me that you have to be in this position because of poorly prescribed meds, and doctors that don't do their job. Go back to your doctor and tell him your not happy with effexor, and be honest about what's happening in your life. Ask him to start tapering off the effexor, monitor your blood pressure, and generally sort his(or her)act out. Take a friend for moral support, as the doc may try to fob you off. It's your body and sanity that's at stake, and you should have some control over what happens to it!

Again, best of luck, and be strong!

[presence]

I have serious insomnia. Right now I take 100 mg of Seroquel. It works great, it will totally knock you out.

[greener]

I've been a severe insomniac since I was but a wee-lad, and I've
certainly been through every sleep medication produced (and I seem to
recall a dream where I got to be a daily illicit-opiate user as a
result) in my quest to just get a good night's sleep... In the
past two years, I haven't slept for more than 2 hours in a night
without taking something to simply knock me out; without any
stimulants, I was once awake for 5 nights just because I didn't have a
sleep med.



Out of all the benzos I tried, Xanax was certainly the most sleep
inducing, though like you, my tolerance went up immensely as a result,
starting at .5mg and ending at 5-7 mg (that was certainly above the
prescribed limit, my doc wasn't that generous...



But yeah, the thing that helped me the most was just getting something
to knock me out for awhile while I got into a sleep study... It
seems drastic, but if you can't sleep, not much else matters. I
haven't found anything that is strong enough to put me to sleep but
doesn't leave a hangover, so it might just be worth assessing what is
the least vicious for you... All the Z drugs (zolpidem,
zopiclone, zaleplon) left me with the nastiest hangovers, because that
slight feeling of confusion would hang around through the first couple
hours of the day (mainly at high doses, 30 mg of zolpidem, for
instance)... Trazodone did it for me, as doctors are willing to
prescribe that in high doses... Taking about 6 of the 50 mg pills
worked alright, and then getting into a sleep study is going to help
determine WHY I have this sleep problem, rather than just treating one
symptom.



Wow, I rambled... Sorry, I'm in one of my nastier bouts of
insomnia, and I tend to ramble about it when I'm like this... Woo.



Good luck, sorry for the length.

[soma]

I believe the strongest benzodiazepines for sleep are triazolam (Halcion), estazolam (ProSom), Flurazepam (Dalmane), and Temazepam (Restoril). These all are very strong, but tolerance builds very fast.

Other strong sedatives are in the barbituate class, such as pentobarbital, however obtaining these chemicals could be difficult and tolerance develops rapidly.

You could try some non-addictive chemicals that are strongly sedating, such as Trazodone- a sedating antidepressant. Other similar options include atypical antipsychotics, mirtipazine, certain blood pressure medications (clonidine), and antihistamine such as diphenhydramine and promethazine.

Hope this helps!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great information.

[Henfer]

actually, you should not forget that those sleeping pills won't help you longtime. First, they change your sleeping pattern and over the long course, will make you a) dependant and b) kill off any REAL sleep. That REM thing. SWIM had sleeping problems for his whole life, and it got heavier the last time. so SWIM got zopiclone (total knockout with strange behaviour and no memory of it), mirtazapine (sat SWIM's ass on the floor, however, the worst hangover EVER. SWIM could not even move, his muscles felt like solid plates of iron and did even hurt. for 36 hours in total, that), lorazepam, diazepam.

The following experiences were made:

a) lorazepam is really not that interesting for sleeping. it's sedating and an anxiolytic, however, SWIM would not consider it a sleeping pill. more a chill out pill with 2-3 beers. oh yeah, and impaired movement and slurred speach.
b) diazepam is better for sleep and for recreational usage. however, it'll sedate you the next day too.
c) zopiclone. 15mg and you're knocked out. and SWIM is a heavy guy. with knocked out, SWIM means taking 15mg at 8 PM, waking up 6 AM and not remembering anything. however, the furniture was moved and SWIM had strange arrangement of clothing and woke up in the middle of the living room. talked and phoned people and talked stuff.
d) mirtazapine. knocks you flat out, extremely bad hangover, and the sleep is not better, as you'll have heavy vivid dreams. SWIM woke up and was totally like WTF?? oh and you'll add 10 pounds a week to your belly.
c) bud is a good sleep aid. however, won't get it by prescription and if done excessively, there's a hangover too.

so, after trying basically every good sleep aid out there, SWIM did the following:

- cut off caffeine usage, especially at evenings. that must have been a worse withdrawal than from tilidine, an opiate. SWIM wasn't near functioning anyhow for 4 days. after that, he feels MUCH better.
-improved sleeping hygiene. read about it on wiki or ask your doc. if you're having real sleeping problems which do not have a direct psychic cause, this will do better for you than ANY sleeping pill. those are short time reliefs and in SWIM's eyes, better for rare recreational use or anxiety relief.

any sleeping pill causes either addiction, dependance or worsens your sleep in the long shot.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great advice!

[soma]

Great advice Hen! I second all of that!

[Earlocybin]

SWIM's not an expert on sleeping pills but there is a newer one called Rozerem (Ramelteon) which works differently than the sedative type ones by targetting melatonin receptors rather than the GABA system. SWIM tried it once and got a very natural tired feeling pretty quickly and that seems to be the general feeling from reports he's read. If you have a high tolerance to benzos, then it's worth a try?

[wearestardust]

Well most of the benzos discussed here aren't even hypnotics! The three most effective are : Flunitrazepam 2mg, Midazolam 15mg, and Temazepam 30mg. The 'Z' drugs are very quick at building tolerance and should only be used for short periods. SWIM likes to rotate 2mg Flunitraz (generic by Labor Med Pharma) and 15mg Midazolam (Galenika FLORMIDAL brand - the best.) Temazepam, whilst equally effective at the given dose, can cause a little 'hangover' effect in the morning.
WAS

[wearestardust]

Should have mentioned that Zolpidem (Stilnoct, Ambien) ceases to have any effect on me after five or six days' use. Zopiclone and Eszopiclone are even more tolerance-building. And 5mg Zolpidem is not exactly a strong dose, even for a first-time.
Some anti-depressants, such as 150mg Trazodone, can have a very strong sleep effect the first two nights, but for no longer. If no hypnotics are available, then 4mg each of Alprazolam and Clonazepam will mimic the effect of 15mg Flormidal (midazolam).
WAS

[Jatelka]

wearestardust: I assume you have a high benzo tolerance?

The doses of Alprazolam and Clonazepam you are talking about would anaesthetise a rhinocerous (Equivalent of 180mg of diazepam!) and send anything smaller to sleep for a VERY long time

Please bear in mind people, that when talking about high doses of downers it is VERY important, for harm-reduction purposes, to explain that you have a high tolerance (presumably because of chronic use) and that the doses mentioned are high. Otherwise benzo-naive users could get into all sorts of trouble

[Henfer]

4 mg of Alprazolame seesm really kinda sky high in SWIH's eyes. He was on vacation and there you can buiy OTC the original Xanax 30 tabs /0.5mg on such a cheap price that SWIH took 30 packs.

He tested 0.5 per half hour (has middle tolerance due to ativan usage) and faded completely out after 2 mg. so 4 mg would put you likely in a day-long coma like sleep.

[beentheredonethatagain]

the best sleeping pill ever made is placidil, not sure if that is the correct spelling and not even sure if they are still on the market. wow those were the bomb. like being drunk and stoned to the third degree. they are also called greenie weenies, they are green some are red and they are filled with liquid , like a vitamin E

[Jatelka]

^^^ Crikey! Placidyl is a blast from the past.

AKA Ethchlorvynol: An old fashioned sedative with a mechanism of action similar to barbiturates, Schedule IV in the US. Metabolised by the liver, with extensive entero-hepatic circulation and a very long half-life (up to 100 hours in vivo). Indicated for the very short term (up to one week) treatment of insomnia. Highly habit forming. Along with all the other generic downer adverse effects can also cause thrombocytopaenia (low platelets)

Reputation Comments on this post:

i see why your a mod

[beentheredonethatagain]

thanx Jatelka , you know your stuff. I guess not too many people get those anymore, its not ever talked about here, or even in the circles that I run in.
I am glad to know that your on the job.

[wearestardust]

Jatelka,
Perhaps I should explain that I have suffered a chronic anxiety/panic disorder for 30+ years and my benzo tolerance is probably quite high; if you don't use this class of meds much or at all, then my dosages would indeed be very high. Like I find 50mg diazepam virtually useless at quelling my attacks. That to me is a tiny dose. So yes, I have what could be called high tolerance.
W.A.Stardust

Oops, I can't edit my replies. So I'll carry on where I left off.
As for the actual sleepers, the hypnotics flunitrazepam, midazolam and temazepam, those are NOT high doses; hypnotic benzos have a different mode of action and so these relatively 'normal' dosages suffice for me.
Stardust

[chrisdahl]

Originally Posted by mark_v

Some strong stuff that knocks me out fast .


I know that stuff is addictive and you can suffer from amnesia, but i just want to sleep.


Maybe some rohypnol, triazolam or lormetazepam ??


Any suggestions ?
Thanx in advance

Only problem been with using the above mentioned drugs is that if you're taking them to knock you out you're gonna be pretty much fooked for any commitments you have the following morning

[wearestardust]

Originally Posted by mrphucker

Only problem been with using the above mentioned drugs is that if you're taking them to knock you out you're gonna be pretty much fooked for any commitments you have the following morning

Yeah, with two of them; but with triazolam, which has a tiny half-life, you should be fresh as a daisy in the morning, as SWIM is with brotizolam, triazolam and his favourite, midazolam 15mg. And yes, all are very strong indeed.
I sometimes wish that the advocates of zolpidem would mention that it has such a large range of side-effects, like hallucination and next-day ataxia. It seems to be spoken of here as some sort of wonder sleeper, when it causes problems in so many patients and its tolerance builds so quickly that it is useless after a week.
WAS

[Ninjaman007]

Originally Posted by Henfer

4 mg of Alprazolame seesm really kinda sky high in SWIH's eyes. He was on vacation and there you can buiy OTC the original Xanax 30 tabs /0.5mg on such a cheap price that SWIH took 30 packs.

He tested 0.5 per half hour (has middle tolerance due to ativan usage) and faded completely out after 2 mg. so 4 mg would put you likely in a day-long coma like sleep.

Must know where swim was on vacation at?