The Holy Grail of Opiates - Opinions?

[car-ramrod]

Yeah, needless to say the regular person cant do it unless they put in some serious research time. This particular dude was an organic chemistry student in college.

[Benniboi]

are hydromorphone or oxycodone really considered the best opiates out there on the market? swim asks namely because he has never had the chance to sample these before. are swimmers saying that these are better than heroin? would be very interested to hear swimmers views on this

[Daytona71]

SWIM bangs hydromorphone, 16mgs. at a time and does not get that wonderful euphoria mentioned but it does wonders for pain. Read where 4mgs. hit did an experienced user hard but not as long or quite as euphoric as H. Stay where you are and be safe. SWIM also could have oxymorphone but found it less than the hydromorphone for effect, either effect.

Just speaking about a friend so take it with a grain of salt

[Handle]

I think there is something in the idea that heroin is the best..I'm no judge of 'holy grails' but let's put it this way:

Something like pethidine, has a low therapeutic index, but very high addiction liability [ie, strong enforcement, strong cravings, rapidly escalating doses etc.] now, that doesn't so much make it better, as more monstrous.

Heroin, is like, like a middle ground. Sure, there are many opioids that are many tens of times stronger, like etorphine, but who wants to die like that?

Heroin can be totally pure, yet still measured out by a layman. This is a huge advantage over fentanyl type drugs. Its almost universally agreed upon as good for a rush, with a not too short duration of action. In this way [about the euphoric rush] it differs from fentanyl and the oxy's, both codone and morphone, where surprising numbers dissent from the rave reviews of some. Heroin seems to stand out as reliable, stock standard, and just plain good.

It was the marvel of primitive engineering, just making it more lipophilic and diffusable through the BBB. It wasn't custom designed to tweak certain known receptors, in it's day, it was just like "Well acetylation worked for salicylic acid, let's try it on morphine" On top of that, it's therapeutic index is actually not too bad, compared to weaker ones like dextropropoxyphene. It might come as a surprise, but as a percentage of doses, [not raw miligrams] the euphoric dose for heroin is further from the breath stopping dose by a not to scoff at margin. That's no mean feat with opioids, notorious as they are for respiratory depression. See, fentanyl actually rivals it in this respect or may be better still, but then when you do get down to raw numbers, TI don't mean shit, coz the tiniest mistake will fuck you fatally. Yes, that applies to heroin too, but the mistake required would still have to be bigger, therefore it is actually a safer drug.

Yes, endogenous opioids have all these miracle pluses, but we live in the real world. They are quickly degraded in the brain, there is no evidence to prove they are any less addictive, and they are less durable prior to use as well [and being larger molecules, their use is pretty much restricted to injection, another detractor from them that weighs in heroin's favour, as it is open to more versatile admin routes]

So for cost, toughness of the gear [ie, it can stand up to smoking, doesn't require freezer storage, and does not force you to resort to needles] and availability, it is ahead of endogenous peptides. Unfortunately, it's illegal, so heroin is behind on that count.

Finally, it is proven to cause less psychological disturbance than piperidine derived drugs. This lesser discussed side effect is not so obvious with fentanyl, where the doses required are tiny, but with bigger dose drugs like methadone and pethidine this problem is pronounced. Often they [or their metabolites] have been linked with patterns of hallucination, delusion, and other negative manifestations that are observed less often among naturally derived opiATES. I said less often, not never, but less often.

So in many ways, heroin might be like that middle ground, between weak cousins and super deadly strong stuff. No matter how enamoured of these fentanyl killers you may imagine yourself to be, just remember they are on par with ricin as weapons of assasination contemplated by people like Mossad in their "disagreements" with Hamas et al. Yes, they are not innately toxic and might be reversed with naloxone if you're lucky, but seriously Mossad planned to kill some Arab leader they didn't like with it because the effects could be so intense, at such low dosages, that by the time it could prove fatal it would still be extremely difficult to even figure out what it was.
That's how strong they are.

I think drooling over chems that most of us haven't actually encountered more than simply hearing of them, [and for safety's sake it might not be so bad if experience of them didn't go beyond that] is one thing, but if you weigh up, affordability, reliability, safety, familiarity [which plays into safety again] and even simple stuff like the intensity of withdrawals, side effects and therapeutic index, you could actually do worse than heroin.

For most of the things I listed, heroin has a bad name among most people, especially about cost and safety. but compared to some alternatives, it's really a middle ground.

Sometimes, you don't get increasing gains with increasing "strength" the way you'd expect.I think it's hard to improve on the original junk, which is in swim's humble opinion, the best.

[ninjaned]

oxycodone. swim loves the taste when it's smoked, or taken sublingually, and loves the feel of oxy when its in his nostrils. it was the first opiate swim did, and its his favorite to this day.

[dyingtomorrow]

@ Handle

I don't see how you could call heroin "middle ground." I think it's inherently implied that the standard we are going on is how great of a feeling; how intense the euphoria and body pleasure is. Everyone knows there are opiates scores to thousands of times stronger than morphine, however these are mostly fentanyl analogues - fentanyl being one of the least euphoric and pleasurable opiates to consume recreationally compared to others out there. The fact that something will just knock you out strongly doesn't make it a "Holy Grail" contender; hell, a baseball bat can do the same thing.

"Holy Grail" implies the heavy weight contenders, not just the 1 opiate someone tried and liked. To get the best of the best, you also have to talk about IV route, since it gives the most pronounced effects, highest bioavailability, plus an extra-powerful wave of pleasure known as the rush.

If you want to talk about the best of the best opiates for pleasure/euphoria (which inherently implies IV route), you have to talk morphine derivatives with high lipid solubility to get the ultimate out of injection. That is, diacetylmorphine and hydromorphone. A recent study showed that addicts could not tell the difference between the two drugs. Some also say Oxymorphone has a higher euphoric quality than either, although SWIM is not sure if this was per injection route (or because of a more efficient digestion property). If not, that would rather exclude it, since pill ingestion is basically the feather-weight category in terms of comparison. Someone who has shot heroin, hydromorphone, and oxymorphone would be needed (SWIM has only injected the first 2).

Since the euphoric/pleasure effects of injected heroin versus injected hydromorphone are the highest (leaving oxymorphone as a ? for now), the next consideration would involve availability/cost. In this case, if you had health insurance and a doctor who would give a negligently high amount of them to you, hydromorphone would probably be preferrable. However for most people who would be buying illicitly, the cost of an equivalent amount of street heroin is a fraction of the cost of an equipotent amount of hydromorphone.


Is there anyone who has injected heroin, hydromorphone and oxymorphone who could comment?

dyingtomorrow added 14 Minutes and 2 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Benniboi

are hydromorphone or oxycodone really considered the best opiates out there on the market? swim asks namely because he has never had the chance to sample these before. are swimmers saying that these are better than heroin? would be very interested to hear swimmers views on this

Hydromorphone can technically feel as good as heroin when banged (it actually gives a strong "proper rush," unlike oxycodones). The problem is if you already have a tolerance to street heroin, like 1 bag of heroin is 1/5th the price of an equal costing amount of illicitly puchased hydromorphone pills. So as you can figure it's only really a good option for the opiate naive. And even then, heroin is still an all around better option unless someone is giving you the hydromorphone for free or something.

SWIM has known many, many people who have made the jump from heavy oxycodone use to heroin, and thought about oxycodones afterwards the way an oxycodone user thinks of vicodins. SWIM has never even heard of, not even through the internet, of a single person who has done heroin for a while, and then tried oxycodone and been like, wow this is better.

There's also the cost factor. At least where SWIM is at, if you are just talking pure nod-feeling and not even the rush factor - a bag of heroin is about 1/3-1/4 as cheap as the equivalent feeling amount of oxycodone.

[Handle]

Ok, that's exactly my point, dyingtomorrow, we actually agree on everything.

When I say middle ground, i actually mean middle ground in terms of strength, and my post exactly was saying that higher strength does not automatically mean better rush.

I agree exactly with you, if you look at my post in a different way, you'll see that I do. it was my point exactly that although some people use fentanyl and say, wow, amazing, many report it is not as euphoric, despite it being stronger, that doesn't make it 'better'.

The other point is, for so many reasons, it has been demonstrated that opiATE derived drugs, are better in the lay opinion than piperidine type opioids. I think avoiding the higher incidence of mental disturbance seen in piperidine derived drugs is a plus in favour of heroin.

Thank you for acknowledging cost, because my whole contention was, that holy grail can be interpreted to mean more than just one factor. It could be weighing up the range of factors that make a drug better for a hedonistic user. And high cost leads to more time being forced to go without and suffer withdrawals because of cost restricted availability, so certainly in the US market, heroin again is generally cheaper, even than loosely prescribed pharms.

Finally, I would just like to say, we do actually agree on one remaining matter. You already have it in writing above that I don't believe strength in dose terms is the sole determinant of pleasure afforded by any particular drug, but I would also like to say,
even user evaluation is difficult to surmise conclusively.

Look at ketobemidone. Now that was once shunned based on a survey done injecting it in addicts who rated it as indistinguishable from, or even better than, heroin. This is not based on wikipedia, but an old british extra pharmacopoeia entry, that warned never to use it because it supposedly rivalled heroin in addictive or euphoric effects.
Doubt has since been cast upon that much older study.

Even buprenorphine, injected in addicts, has been rated as at least mistaken for heroin. Users claimed to experience as much euphoria from the experience as from injected heroin. Again, this is not a research journal, so if people can prove that no such study exists, feel free to prove me wrong, but to my knowledge it does.

My point is, subjective ratings vary, but heroin has remained the stock standard illicitly manufactured opiate. Yes, oxycodone is beginning to gain ground as a diverted opiate, but why has heroin remained so consistently popular?

I think that's because it is the 'holy grail'

[uncle_mike]

all opiates strength is based against morphine. i would say fentanly is the holy grail.
it is 100 times the strength of morphine. i believe there are many different variations/strenghts of fentanly and 1 type i forget the name i believe was between 1 and 3000 x the strength of morphine. 1 gram of pure fentanly could be turned into 100 grams of street smack

Reputation Comments on this post:

yup, there's alfentanyl, sufentanil, and beta hydroxy, alfa methyl fentanyl [which I think might be the strongest]

[pirate24]

Originally Posted by uncle_mike

all opiates strength is based against morphine. i would say fentanly is the holy grail.
it is 100 times the strength of morphine. i believe there are many different variations/strenghts of fentanly and 1 type i forget the name i believe was between 1 and 3000 x the strength of morphine. 1 gram of pure fentanly could be turned into 100 grams of street smack

Swim agrees fentanyl is pretty awesome. Fentanyl was the first strong opiate swim tried, not counting codeine and some opium that he didn't really enjoy that much. He took them in the form of little blotters (like acid blotters), just put one under your tongue and lie there as your problems dissolve away.

But for swim the holy grail would probably have to be h just because you can shoot it, unlike those little blots. However, if he ever did find an ampoule of fentanyl solution he'd probably change his mind about this. He's also heard that IV oxymorphone is better than h, both in terms of the rush and the overall high. Sadly, he hasn't managed to find any.

[Daytona71]

Originally Posted by pirate24

Swim agrees fentanyl is pretty awesome. Fentanyl was the first strong opiate swim tried, not counting codeine and some opium that he didn't really enjoy that much. He took them in the form of little blotters (like acid blotters), just put one under your tongue and lie there as your problems dissolve away.

But for swim the holy grail would probably have to be h just because you can shoot it, unlike those little blots. However, if he ever did find an ampoule of fentanyl solution he'd probably change his mind about this. He's also heard that IV oxymorphone is better than h, both in terms of the rush and the overall high. Sadly, he hasn't managed to find any.

swim DID A 10MG. OXYMORPHONE THE DIRECT ROUTE AND NO EUPHORIA AT ALL BUT swim DOES NOT GET THAT ANY MORE. Gave up hydromorphone for the oxy but no difference, neither provide any euphoria, tolerance is much too high. Newbies never do what has been writtin in this post as it is just a story so be smart and safe.

[shanesmith7]

swim agrees with Diconal. he knows he would be blowing his veins like the covenant glassed Reach and he would still try it once.

[cz-one]

Jeez,cant believe this threads still going!! i think mine would now be a big fat slab of sun dried helmund province opium,with a gold leaf poppy head imprint on one side and arabic on the reverse for authenticity!! out of all the opiates i've tried,an opium spliff was the best,its a shame its not so widely available in the west.

[ketameaningless]

'my whole contention was, that holy grail can be interpreted to mean more than just one factor. It could be weighing up the range of factors that make a drug better for a hedonistic user'

totally. a lot of people including this nice little old lady i know who deffo isnt me like fenanyl precisely because of the regulated medical aspect, sure, it is incredibly dangerous if you mess about with it, but if someone sticks to the nice delivery system the clever doctors and scientists invented, and doesnt try anything daft like chewing it or extracting the active ingredient, then it is pretty easy for that person to get nicely off their tits once in a while without any of the concommitant disadvantages such as selling possessions and begging for change.
i dont mean anything bad by this incidentally, im not trying to be judgemental. i just mean that when talking about a holy grail youve got to factor in the effect a high has on the REST of your life.

ketameaningless added 1006 Minutes and 10 Seconds later...

'

Yeah, a true hedonist would have to consider the value of a rug to people who like to enjoy themselves


i dunno how to read the rest of this, but i agree about the value of a rug.
my rug really holds the room together

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Yeah, a true hedonist would have to consider the value of a rug to people who like to enjoy themselves, and feeling like...

[Piglet]

Diconal (AKA dipipanone 10mg cyclizine 30mg) shot IS the holy grail, just ask any old junkie who lived in a country that prescribed it.

People underestimate the euphoria from methadone when shot or smoked (yes folks, you CAN smoke the hydrochloride). It's the slow onset that people dislike...

[CrookedEye]

Well, a common name for the best heroin SWIM ever tried, that is similar to names that the OP mentioned in the first post (like pink champagne, etc,) would be China White. This was often some of the purest heroin he ever tried, and gave one of the best euphoric opiate highs he ever experienced.

[Boh Girl]

Generally - Opiates

Only because SWIM hasn't had anything stronger than an oxy 80.. she can't resist DROOLING over the words "an un-opened box of them".

SWIM is newly clean though so *deep breath* SWIM won't be trying anything else to compare for quite a while, if at all (Although she sure would love to )

SWIM is all about the euphoria.. she hates stuff like codeine. It would take something very euphoric to get SWIM to do some opiates again!

[NeoGeo64]

The holy grail of opiates are whichever you happen to have on you at the time.. because it sucks being out.

But in all seriousness, the holy grail of opiates is oxycodone. I can't speak for the morphone family because I've never had access to those.

[Boh Girl]

Originally Posted by NeoGeo64

The holy grail of opiates are whichever you happen to have on you at the time.. because it sucks being out.

But in all seriousness, the holy grail of opiates is oxycodone. I can't speak for the morphone family because I've never had access to those.

SWIM highly agrees.. If It's SWIMs bday or she's traveling someday and gets access to the morphones.. she doesnt know If she could resist a night of them!

[Daytona71]

SWIM HAS IV'D BOTH HYDROMORPHONE AND OXYMORPHONE AND THE HYDRO IS MUCH BETTER. Excuse the caps. The problem is 24mgs. of Hydro is not enough nor is 30mgs. of the oxy, IV'd. SWIM has not gotten any euphoria from any opioids in years, just comfort. Many SWIY's say they woluld do anything to bget whaty SWIM has, either 360 tabs of either Hydromorphone( brand name) or Opana IR-10mgs. In addition 360 tabs of 10mg. Methadone with the hydro or 160mgs.of Oxy ER per day.
SWIM would say the Hydromorphone beats them all that SWIM has been on. SWIM wants to stop the IV thing and will soon as a Morphine pumpwill be embeded again, Lord willing and without an insurance fight.

[car-ramrod]

A regimen of dihydroetorphine starting at 200 mcgs/day and increasing dose 15 mcgs everyday for the rest of your life......sounds nice eh? Then as tolerance grows switch to plain etorphine which is stronger and that way get more euphoria. Then, another few years down the line add in oxymorphazone along with powdered lofentanil and have a cocktail of those everyday in an ever-increasing dose.

[Vein_Banger]

80mg oxy's!!! mother fucking love their sustained high and euphoria, but cant holda candle to 10-15 dilaudids (4mg's) or My newly conquered Diesel Power, which is definitely the Holy Grail of, well, my life!!!! lol

[opiumcowboy]

swim says oc 80's and some foil or h bombs off some foil. no needles

[DepressionCureInDaStreet]

That's all my frog has to say

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Hahahahah, humorous use of multimedia posting!

[Dreznik]

So far, 2 - 1 mg lorazepam's with 2 - 20mg oxy's with a few cold beers.
A great Saturday or Sunday afternoon.

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This comment is all too brief and should really be in a thread about combo's, because this one was trying to keep on the...