Codeine vs Tramadol: one time use withdrawal.

[Ethyl]

Codeine vs Tramadol: one time use withdrawal.

What gives your labs rats more withdrawal effects? Codeine or Tramadol?
I'm only asking about ONE TIME USE! NOT daily use. So please only post your labrats experiences about the withdrawal that follows one time use.

Please describe the labrats experiences with:

- Dosage used
- Time of withdrawal (begining, peak, end)
- Symptons of withdrawal.

Once again i ask to talk only about ONE TIME USE, and not daily use.

[stoneinfocus]

Dosage used 60-90mg codeine ( the strong form don´t know the salt´s name)
-none
-none

Tramadol 100-150mg
-3-6hours , - , -
-none

not high dosed but on so to call virgin-opiate receptors.

[Ethyl]

One more question that i think its important:

- Do Swiy had any previous opiates withdrawal experiencies?

[MrJim]

SWIM thinks that this is the million dollar question when dealing with one time wd's. One time use would really be all about the mental addiction.

[Ethyl]

Originally Posted by MrJim

SWIM thinks that this is the million dollar question when dealing with one time wd's. One time use would really be all about the mental addiction.

Yeah, it took swie 2 years and a half to experience hangover to what i now call withdrawal. But the symptoms were slowly building with time, but i didn't noticed.
But i ain't talking about first experiences with opiates, but one time use = not repeated use, or not daily use. Sorry if i not quite explained myself.

Some symptoms typical of opiates withdrawal:

Symptoms of withdrawal include:

• Dilated pupils
• Diarrhea
• Runny nose
• Goose bumps
• Abdominal pain.
• Sweating
• Agitation
• Anxiety
• Nausea
• Vomiting
• Restless Legs

[UNIBLACK810]

Originally Posted by MrJim

SWIM thinks that this is the million dollar question when dealing with one time wd's. One time use would really be all about the mental addiction.

I agree one time w/d is more of a mental thing. I've been using opiates for about 15 yrs. And personally I don't believe in any one tme useage withdrawl. Not physical anyone. Now mental. That's another story. Sometimes they can be just as hard if not worse.

[fiveleggedrat]

Swim has had one time w/d's quite often. He is big on opiates, but does them rarely to keep a fresh tolerance and addiction far, far away.

After all the effects of tramadol faded (150-300mg dosing, 8-16 hours after first dosing), he would get nauseous and vomit, every time like clockwork. Except for the first time (100mg dose). This was not physical longterm addiction, 100% positive.

He also had it happen with methadone twice as well. He would get 3 day highs with methadone, and on the third day (sometimes second when it did not last as long), he would get similar symptoms. Nausea, vomiting, a general uncomfort.

He also felt this was NOT a mental thing, but an uncontrollable physical thing.

He never had it happen with any other opiates though, including hydrocodone, oxycodone, hydromorphone, and heroin. No experience with codeine, sorry.

[UNIBLACK810]

Originally Posted by fiveleggedrat

Swim has had one time w/d's quite often. He is big on opiates, but does them rarely to keep a fresh tolerance and addiction far, far away.

After all the effects of tramadol faded (150-300mg dosing, 8-16 hours after first dosing), he would get nauseous and vomit, every time like clockwork. Except for the first time (100mg dose). This was not physical longterm addiction, 100% positive.

He also had it happen with methadone twice as well. He would get 3 day highs with methadone, and on the third day (sometimes second when it did not last as long), he would get similar symptoms. Nausea, vomiting, a general uncomfort.

He also felt this was NOT a mental thing, but an uncontrollable physical thing.

He never had it happen with any other opiates though, including hydrocodone, oxycodone, hydromorphone, and heroin. No experience with codeine, sorry.

SWIM wanted to share an expierience from SWIM's active days. Remembering when SWIM first started out with H SWIM met a young girl who was really bad on H. SWIM remembers aksing her how she got hooked as SWIM had been using for about 5 months everyday. But SWIM was totally blind to withdrawl's. SWIM remember's her telling SWIM that she was at a party one day and someone offered her smack. She snorted some than some more. She said she loved it. She says the next day she woke up needing it. Physically needing it. SWIM bgan to inquire about the way it felt to need it and she explained to SWIM, you're weak, stomach aches diahhrea, hot and cold restless legs tearing yawning. At that exact point,SWIM will never forget as long as SWIM lives SWIM began to feel withdrawls. And it wasnt a mental thing. The girl who told SWIM was about 16 as SWIM was about 17 @ the time. Before that time SWIM knew nothing about withdrawl's as the people who SWIM was getting high with(much older guy's) nev told SWIM anything about having to need it. Probably in the fear SWIM would have stopped using. However SWIM began to think about all the times he woke up feeling sick in the mornings for the last few months, but did'nt know what it was it so it really didnt bother SWIM. Once SWIM realized it was because of the H SWIM woke up feeling awful every morning from there, feinding for a bag. SWIM know's that some people are just way more sucseptable to addiction then others. SWIM believes that your biological make up determines how easily or difficult it will be for you to become addicted to any certain substance. Coupled with the mental aspect it makes for a long hard fight. Truth be told though is that most opiate addicts never fully recover.

[Ethyl]

Swie is an "ex"-junkie, and if swie uses Heroin (once in a while = one time use), he stills experience a mini-withdrawal in the next 2 days that follow his heroin use.

[sarbanes]

Originally Posted by Ethyl

Swie is an "ex"-junkie, and if swie uses Heroin (once in a while = one time use), he stills experience a mini-withdrawal in the next 2 days that follow his heroin use.

Would you call that awful, horrible (yet somehow subtle) feeling that things are not quite right, that somthing is vaguely wrong, perhaps you sense something bad is going to happen. Would you classify that sensation as a WD symptom, because for me, it most certainly is, and is the 1st sign usually of WD. And I HATE IT!

[JaWill88]

"one time use" and "withdrawal" really shouldn't even be used in the same sentence. maybe purely psychological syptoms... but physical? that is something that just doesn't happen. 2-3 days of using 3 times a day is definately a possibility for real physical symptoms though. mild, but definately there. and thats for someone who has had many physical habbits over time. a person who just started using opiates and uses them for like 3 days in a row probably isn't going to feel any physical symptoms. someone who has been using for a long time is taking a chance however.

[Zaprenz]

although withdrawal may not be the best choice of word in an acute dose you will nearly always get some form of REBOUND effects when the drug has effectively been metabolised or left the body. [Usually manifesting as the complete opposite effect that the drug in question produces] The pharmacokinetics of the drug makes a big difference.


When people say they don't have any withdrawal/hangover/day after effects from a drug - all that means is they don't perceive them / or they are not strong enough for them to notice or worry about. [That in itself is not proof enough to say they are not there. Sometimes a person may just put it down to someone annoying them or them getting angry for another reason and not associate it with taking drug XYZ the day before. Often when someone has had a serious addiction, with a specific drug, they have experienced strong withdrawal/rebound effect so often that when they go back to that drug later on, even as one dose, they will recognise the rebound effects more easily]


If a drug molecule is hammering on a receptor or depleting neurotransmitters via other means the body is going to try to preserve the previous equilibrium. So in an acute dose this might not mean receptor downregulation (as this can take multiple doses over a number of days or prolonged period of time) however there are many other mechanisms (In the case of heroin the downstream effects on other neurotransmitters plays a key role).

In short what comes up must come down (often to below baseline levels even if this is for a short period of time).


SWIMs opinion on codeine & tramadol.

Codeine: Potentially more addictive but produces expected (sometimes nasty if taken for a long time) opioid type rebound/withdrawal effects. SWIM feels less mentally imparied however with codeine.
Tramadol: May not produce as many obvious opioid rebound/withdrawal effects but the SSRI/SNRI effects leaves SWIM horribly "off key" for a few days and feels the drug impairs mental function much more.

Anyway both can be addictive, habit forming and have rebound/withdrawal effects. People often strongly prefer tramadol over traditional opioids or the complete opposite and hate everything about it - quite a subjective thing.

[samuraigecko]

One cannot experience withdrawal after only one time use, especially 1st time use.

One can experience what SWIM has come to call a "ghost withdrawal" when someone has been an ex-user and then uses again, experiencing a withdrawal the next day. Since the body "remembers" what it likes and dislikes (cellular memory) then the body will "remember" that it loved the introduced chemical at one time and also NEEDED it to survive almost. This will produce a "ghost withdrawal" which can psychologically be as bad as a true withdrawal.

Hope this has been of help

[JaWill88]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

One cannot experience withdrawal after only one time use, especially 1st time use.

One can experience what SWIM has come to call a "ghost withdrawal" when someone has been an ex-user and then uses again, experiencing a withdrawal the next day. Since the body "remembers" what it likes and dislikes (cellular memory) then the body will "remember" that it loved the introduced chemical at one time and also NEEDED it to survive almost. This will produce a "ghost withdrawal" which can psychologically be as bad as a true withdrawal.

Hope this has been of help

yes yes yes. swim agrees with what swiy said. swim knows what swiy is talking about.

[Ethyl]

Zaprenz: good post!

I was asking about real WD/rebound effects like:

• Dilated pupils
• Diarrhea
• Runny nose
• Goose bumps
• Abdominal pain.
• Sweating
• Agitation
• Anxiety
• Nausea
• Vomiting
• Restless Legs

Even tought many ppl can't notice them (or aren't looking for them, cause they are usually MILD) they sometimes exist even with low doses and short term usage. The intensity of short term is allmost undectectable.
I still remember swim first time heroin usage, he got a lot of sweating, dilated pupils, light goose bumps, light nausea and diarhrea for the next day(s)..

But i agree with the ghost WD, that tends to happen. But like zaprenz said there are rebound effects at least, it is a matter of equilibrium.

Reputation Comments on this post:

very true

[samuraigecko]

Originally Posted by Ethyl

Zaprenz: good post!

I was asking about real WD/rebound effects like:

• Dilated pupils
• Diarrhea
• Runny nose
• Goose bumps
• Abdominal pain.
• Sweating
• Agitation
• Anxiety
• Nausea
• Vomiting
• Restless Legs

Even tought many ppl can't notice them (or aren't looking for them, cause they are usually MILD) they sometimes exist even with low doses and short term usage. The intensity of short term is allmost undectectable.
I still remember swim first time heroin usage, he got a lot of sweating, dilated pupils, light goose bumps, light nausea and diarhrea for the next day(s)..

But i agree with the ghost WD, that tends to happen. But like zaprenz said there are rebound effects at least, it is a matter of equilibrium.

Almost all of those effects can become apparent as mere side effects in a non-user. This is not withdrawal but rather side effects of the drug itself. As is stated and scientifically proven, one cannot go into WD from a single dosage. One can however experience all of the above symptoms which are merely side effects in a % of the cases. This % however is not high.

An example would be a hangover . . .
One drinks, one gets drunk . . .
The next day one has a headache, the sweats, dry mouth, diarrhea, dehydration etc etc etc etc . . .
These are not alcohol withdrawals although an alcoholic may also experience these things if he were to dry out. They (in a normal person, not an addict) are just side effects from the abuse one has given ones body the previous night.

As has been stated many a time by many a person, for true opiate WD's to occur then the body must actually slow or stop production of endomorphin. This cannot happen from a single dosage, even an over dosage if it was the first singular dose. It generally takes up to 14 days of moderate continual use for the body to stop producing endomorphin all together.

Hope this has been of help

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

Almost all of those effects can become apparent as mere side effects in a non-user. This is not withdrawal but rather side effects of the drug itself. As is stated and scientifically proven, one cannot go into WD from a single dosage. One can however experience all of the above symptoms which are merely side effects in a % of the cases. This % however is not high.

An example would be a hangover . . .
One drinks, one gets drunk . . .
The next day one has a headache, the sweats, dry mouth, diarrhea, dehydration etc etc etc etc . . .
These are not alcohol withdrawals although an alcoholic may also experience these things if he were to dry out. They (in a normal person, not an addict) are just side effects from the abuse one has given ones body the previous night.

Alcohol is a complex drug so only part of the "hangover" can be attributed to REBOUND effects. However it is impossible to exclude them from the equation, the REBOUND effects are present (whether noticed or not) they just may not represent the whole picture. (Dehydration, liver toxicity, hypoglycaemia etc etc will be variable and play different parts). Alcohol also has a very complex mechanism of action in terms of CNS depression.

REBOUND effects ARE side effects (I agree) but simply calling them side effects alone is sometimes not very helpful. For example diarhhoea is a side effect of acute one off opioid use(e.g codeine). However a person taking an opiate would be wise to expect constipation (whilst the drug is active) and experience diarrhoea when the drug looses effect. Therefore saying the REBOUND effects of taking codeine can involve diarrhoea is more useful in this example.

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

As has been stated many a time by many a person, for true opiate WD's to occur then the body must actually slow or stop production of endomorphin. This cannot happen from a single dosage, even an over dosage if it was the first singular dose. It generally takes up to 14 days of moderate continual use for the body to stop producing endomorphin all together.

Hope this has been of help

REBOUND effects will still occur(the severity may be small or insignificant but they still occur). Opiates have many downstream effects within the brain once they have activated the relevant opioid receptors even in an acute dose.

[samuraigecko]

How does such a REBOUND effect relate to withdrawal. Again the rebound effects stated seem to indicate more of a side effect of the drug itself rather than anything else.

Alcohol was only an example. Hangover effects which are typical side effects from using ANY particular drug can and are most often are present with single time use rather than prolonged use.

Using the original header of the thread itself "withdrawal from a single dosage" is a double negative since it is not possible for it to occur.

There are paradoxes however . . . an example would be Naloxone. One already has to BE an opiate addict before this paradox will work though. So the action of "withdrawal from a single dose" is still not present.

[HighCountryHero]

swim is an ex-junkie and when swim still occasionally uses he still finds that after a 2-3 binge will lead to minor WD. Dont get me wrong, it still sucks, but nothin compared to full blown WD.
Did nobody metion insomnia. That was swims worst problem with bad WD, that along with bad sweating (swim doesn't sweat bad at all when clean), tense stomach, loss of appetite, hot/cold flashes, vomiting, diarreha, anxiety, and pure restlessness.
Just wanted to bring up insomnia because when swim used to quit after long use he would sleep maybe 1-3 hours a night if at all for a whie.
Swims advice, just take breaks: it keeps tolerance down, severe WD at bay, and is just smarter if swiy is going to indulge in opiate use. Just swims 2 cents.

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

How does such a REBOUND effect relate to withdrawal. Again the rebound effects stated seem to indicate more of a side effect of the drug itself rather than anything else.

They are very much related, tolerance to opioids is not black & white - it doesn't just suddenly happen. It builds gradually and withdrawal syndrome involves many of the same tolerance mechanisms as rebound effects but considerably different severity and combination. (For example receptor downregulation will occur from one single dose, so small it will be unnoticable. But there are of course MANY other factors involved, particularly downstream effects)

Alcohol was only an example. Hangover effects which are typical side effects from using ANY particular drug can and are most often are present with single time use rather than prolonged use.

Hangover is a word best not used in SWIMs opinion which is why REBOUND is preffered. Why? How many people have you met who are convinced "I never get a hangover even from 20pints". Regardless of how bad/good they felt the next day & how well they can take their drink one cannot escape the rebound effects that occur in the brain.

Using the original header of the thread itself "withdrawal from a single dosage" is a double negative since it is not possible for it to occur.

Regardless it is obvious what Ethyl (first poster) is asking.

[samuraigecko]

well as one mentions

"tolerance to opioids is not black & white - it doesn't just suddenly happen. It builds gradually"

Which just supports more of what one was saying. One time use and WD just do not belong in the same sentence.

One time use and "hangover/rebound/side effects" however would work as a more viable topic.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Yep fair enough, good point.

[HighCountryHero]

Swim agrees completely, one time use and withdrawl don't belong together. The day after the first time the person is more likely to feel hangover effects and not even want to use that next day. The withdrawl is when you have what you could call severe hangover feelings but more opiates will fix the problem; mentally and physiclly.
Peace

[Zaprenz]

Originally Posted by samuraigecko

One time use and "hangover/rebound/side effects" however would work as a more viable topic.

Yep fair enough, good point.