Kratom - SWIM's new respect for it.

[Nicaine]

In the past, SWIM has recommended kratom as an aid for stimulant withdrawal, and has noted or recommended various mixes with other substances. He has felt for a long time that kratom is mostly benign, harmless and carries few risks (other than mild to moderate addiction with heavy use, and potentially strong nausea/vomiting with overdose).

Lately SWIM has had a drastic change of opinion, and (although he isn't saying anyone else should do this) threw out his entire supply last night and decided never to touch kratom again. He's certain he'll stick to this decision, now that he realizes the gradual, insidious, progressive and ultimately very nasty ways this substance has been undermining his mental and physical health.

ISO, kratom is probably benign when used once or twice/week at most, in low to moderate doses, by itself, NEVER in association with other substances. Used more often, combined with other substances or e.g. to mask stimulant crashes, SWIY is risking problems. They may take a while to show up, and can creep up so slowly that SWIY may be oblivious for a long time, maybe never realizing kratom has been the culprit all along.

Kratom seemed almost too good to be true to SWIM. Legal, natural/herbal, feels almost as good as Oxy or Hydrocodone, antidepressant qualities, seems to *cure* stimulant crashes, very mild withdrawals compared to opiates, no record of overdose deaths, many potential health benefits from alkaloids, etc. SWIM now believes he was right -- it is in fact too good to be true, and turns out to be false.

SWIM will go into more detail in further posts... it would be easier if asked specific questions, but if nobody does he'll try and sort his thoughts into a coherent storyline showing how he feels kratom has affected him over the past 2-3 years.

[Bajeda]

Please do. A write-up of where and how exactly Kratom went wrong for swiy would be beneficial. Specifically, any particular problems that emerged from certain patterns or incidenes of use, and what effects - negative and positive - different types of chronic use led to.

[Nicaine]

SWIM will start with the fact that opiates (and likely any opiate receptor agonists, such as kratom) suppress both REM and NREM sleep:

http://tinyurl.com/34buko
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3385327

Combine this with the fact that stimulants also suppress sleep, and continued use of stimulants creates a serious need for sleep. Stimulants also tend to stress the heart, and we have this (from the above link):

Inhibition of REM sleep is followed by a rebound increase in REM sleep associated with cardiopulmonary complications.

The final scene involves use of kratom on a regular basis (prior to, during and following stimulant use). That should paint one picture, suggesting both a threat of chronic sleep deprivation and potential risk of cardiac complications; more to come.

[Nicaine]

Stimulant comedown/crashes are unpleasant, and the temptation to use kratom is ever-present. Kratom provides an immediate lift in mood and practically erases negative effects of a crash.

Temporarily. When the kratom wears off, the crash returns with even greater intensity (often accompanied by severe mood swings). Of course, one is again tempted to take kratom to relieve the symptoms, which it does.

Temporarily. Now it's been 12+ hours since the stimulant use, with no sleep. NO MORE KRATOM, IT'S A VOW.

So the mood swings start, along with a lot of anxiety and agitation. Preventing sleep.

What to do? Maybe more stimulants, maybe more kratom, maybe stay up awhile & eat, watch TV, whatever. Either way, sleep isn't among the available choices. More to come...

[darawk]

Do you think that SWIMs negative side effects might actually be caused by an increase in stimulant use, due to the ability to avoid the comedown via kratom, and not actually kratom itself?

[dwilkes7]

I Know that Nicaine is banned, but swim felt compelled to post.

swim has Bipolar Disorder and take meds for that. Swim is also a chronic pain patient taking 120 mg of Hydro a day for 3 years straight. Swim has often taken Kratom, to enhance the mu agonist, and swim has had no problems with REM sleep. Swims wife is a nurse and stayed up to watch him while sleeping. She had expressed concern on several points of sleep apnea, and disturbances, especially REM and how swim reacted to that.

She found nothing unusual in any of my sleeping, with the exception that she noticed more body movement while in REM.

The next week swim was given an EEG (man is it hard to get that glue off swims head and hair). Results were completely normal. Swim had already been taking opiates for 2 years straight.

Looking at the references, cited above, are a long way away from human reaction, being based on cats. Swim also got the feeling that the researchers that the tests were still ongoing. Swim could be wrong there, but swim read the studies more than once. A proper study of human subjects would be fairly easy, since there are plenty of people on long term opiate therapy.

For long term Kratom use, just go to thailand.

[Nagognog2]

Originally Posted by dwilkes7

For long term Kratom use, just go to thailand.

Thailand has the death-penalty for dealing Kratom! It's extremely illegal there. Long-term imprisonment is more correct.

[dwilkes7]

True Nagognog2, very true. Swims not sure about long term Kratom studies, but swim thinks he read about them somewhere. Swim will try to find the source.

[Bajeda]

A study of kratom eaters

That help? My adobe acrobat isn't working so I can't check it to see.

[Nagognog2]

Not coming up on Adobe. But that's the definitive study - yes.