What do you say to somone who says drug are "fake feelings"

[stoneinfocus]

oh yeah, mathematics and science are just fake models that will never reach the laws of nature to perfection.

Logic is just a fake of nature´s evolutionary plan of integration and evolutionary adaption to the enviroment, that´s gotten completely off the cast.

[ProtectedByTheGods]

Not to be taken too serious:
Lace the dude with some LSD, MDMA or whatever, then ask him if it feels
real enough for him.

[Cakes]

not serious of course. but funny as hell.

[dreammm]

Ask this person what they would do if they were in extreme pain... what would they do.... choose to just wait the pain out, die, or take the drugs.
Most would choose the drugs. Some religious people wouldnt.... and some others. Most people in extreme cases die without the drugs from going into shock from pain or other reactions.
I would not be alive today if it wasnt for a few different types of drugs, after severe allergic reactions like anaflaxis.... and the extreme pain of child birth.

Anything can be used as medicine, depending on how its used and when its used, and what its used for.
Some search their entire life for the right type of drug to help them in more ways than one, and able them to live life.

This person may be fortunate and healthy enough to not need to use drugs. Tell them to speak for themselves, because drugs have done alot of good and not just bad for so many people. The choice is yours weather you abuse them or not. Fact is everything has some kinda drug, especially those packaged foods. So next time you see this person eating a bag of chips and they ask you if you want some, tell them no because you dont like fake food or eating things that have no benefits for your body or brain.

[highganja99]

Feelings are feelings therefore how can they be fake?

All feelings are chemically induced as far as I am aware.

Maybe it is better to call 'feelings' emotions that way its more clear cut.

Drugs enhance emotions or feelings just like a bodybuilder will say lifting weights can give them better pleasure than sex, due to a release of endorphins (I think it's endorphins).

Drugs may however give a person new and different feelings not felt before, they may feel the feelings are artificial in nature or not, but if they have felt them they can't be fake feelings, you can't fake your own feelings, only the interpretation of them can be wrong.

Reputation Comments on this post:

That sounds quite insightful.

[Jozef]

'I think therefore I am'

[stoneinfocus]

Good point pere, it´s a kind of a fear involved in what the christians tell their kids, how they were raised themselves.

Your body is holy and god made it for you, don´t sdo anything bad to it, or your body (or is it god?) will punish you.

Also, in seeing your body as a machine, what generally every medic and surgeon has to do, in order do make any operation on (in*g*) it predictable and comprehensible and every artist or sportsmen does this instinctvely, seeing your body as an instrument to your will, the christians might see it as a sin and will fearfully avoid any conscious "alterations" of it, that might not be in the will of god.

Reputation Comments on this post:

you took words out of my mouth

[Strugglin]

Also Id like to add that that sort of line of thought - drugs producing fake feelings - is often tied up to establishment mumbo jumbo about drug users using drugs to escape reality rather than face it. However, the negative implication within this line of thought is somewhat laughable to me. To escape reality is to gain perspective on it (The best location to observe a mountain is not necesarily its summit) and such perspective capacitates one to be able to better understand and confront life

Reputation Comments on this post:

	good point
	Good post!

[augentier]

All feelings are REAL if they are happening. You feel happy? That's real, you're perceiving and sensing a REALITY that is occuring in your body and/or mind. You're depressed so you take some drug to make you feel better? You're FEELING better, you are experiencing the results of an action, therefore it is real..no matter what causes it or the circumstances around it.

Now, these feelings may fade, so that makes them "fake"? How? If you were happy 10 years ago, but you're depressed now, was that happiness fake because it didn't last forever? You roll and feel the happiest you've ever felt for about 6 hours, then it's gone..that wasn't fake, that was real, you felt the reality of a sensory overload. No, it wasn't natural or normal to release that much serotonin in your brain, however you felt all that serotonin being released in your brain. See what I'm saying?

Anyway, like someone else here said if the person asking is bashing the idea that drugs are not a "normal" way to create a feeling, ask them why it makes a difference?

[Euphoric]

Originally Posted by augentier

All feelings are REAL if they are happening. You feel happy? That's real, you're perceiving and sensing a REALITY that is occuring in your body and/or mind. You're depressed so you take some drug to make you feel better? You're FEELING better, you are experiencing the results of an action, therefore it is real..no matter what causes it or the circumstances around it.

That's true and even without drugs your perception of reality can be off. For example, you're watching a comedic play in which one of the cast members hilariously expires. What you don't know is he's not acting. All the audience thinks it's a brilliant and hysterical performance. They weren't perceiving what was 'really' happening (someone tragically dying), but did they not feel good as they laughed?

Reputation Comments on this post:

Interesting analogy, well done.

[Nature Boy]

They'd probably play up the "all intoxication is bad" routine. This only applies to drugs that cause serious physical damage and if the user is harming people around them. In other words, it doesn't apply to any responsible drug user therefore the argument is weak.

[psyche]

When a skydiver jumps he gets an adrenaline rush.

What he feels is as a result of his decision to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.

When a stoner tokes he gets high.

What he feels is as a result of his decision to reach over to his stash box and spark up a fatty.


There is no difference other than the fact that the skydiver is using his internal stash of chemicals.

"But smoking dope is bad for your lungs"

He is jumping out of a FUCKING plane!!!

lol @ a perfectly good airplane.

What instantly popped to my mind after reading this, was how obvious it is that the deep Christian influence in our culture(especially US of America) is opposed to drugs.

People like to live in denial about the ultimate chemical (fake?) nature of human experience; thinking that your conscious mind is nothing more than a bunch of interconnected neurons is a bit depressing, as it leads inevitably that from the big bang everything is bound to go on a rails, and it makes us powerless. It is a bothersome thought that whatever we do, there is only one option to what is going to happen. You're just watching as your life flows by. It is kinda demotivating. So, God created your soul and body, period. Let's take that for granted and go on with our lives from here. And remember, by being righteous there's heaven waiting for you. Don't listen to those who'd rather take a pill to get there without having to die first.

Edit: People do not generally realize the similarity of our engogenous chemical processes to that of drugs' effects because of the scaremongering. It makes drugs look like they are primarily poisons, they have their primary effect by disrupting neural process, even destroying it. They think that you hallucinate because you're brain is frying. That's what they're telling us.

But there's a tiny, microscopic bit of truth there. Since the exogenous drugs aren't exactly like our endogenous(well, some are), they have a little different, usually more powerful and harmful effect. You don't get physical withdrawal from stopping you're daily jogging cold turkey. No matter how much you release endorphins.

[darawk]

Why is any one reality more accurate or valid than another? If you had lived your whole life in acid land our real world would seem just as foreign and unreal as an acid trip. Reality is an illusion of contextual perception.

[Euphoric]

Originally Posted by darawk

Why is any one reality more accurate or valid than another? If you had lived your whole life in acid land our real world would seem just as foreign and unreal as an acid trip. Reality is an illusion of contextual perception.

Very true, reality is subjective (obviously). Christians will interpret reality differently than Buddhists, who will interpret things differently from scientologists, who will interpret things differently from the Bwiti, who will interpret things differently than William S Burroughs, who will interpret things differently than a Panda. Who's to say who's reality is wrong?

[MrG]

Originally Posted by Euphoric

Very true, reality is subjective (obviously). Christians will interpret reality differently than Buddhists, who will interpret things differently from scientologists, who will interpret things differently from the Bwiti, who will interpret things differently than William S Burroughs, who will interpret things differently than a Panda. Who's to say who's reality is wrong?

Quite right about reality being subjective. All creatures on this planet experience reality according to the limits of their mental and sensory capacity. A Panda is unlikely to be able to comprehend what is happening to him if he were administered a drug such as cocaine, all he would know is that it would likely give him a sensation he would choose to repeat if given the ability to self-dose.

The fact that said Panda would then be in a state of mind he is highly unlikely to ever be able to experience without some mad scientist type jacking the cute monochrome bamboo fixated cuddly toy off all four of his tits is irrelevant. He is experiencing something very real and whether he would have been able to naturally achieve it without human intervention is irrelevant.

An experience is exactly that - An Experience, who is to say that it is fake?

As a society we are willing to subjugate ourselves to laws that, in essence, are designed to promote order and progress but these laws, in limiting our actions, be they trying to prevent base jumpers from leaping from the Petronas Towers or promote a safe sex message by encouraging people to use condoms, create an artifical and limited reality for us on a daily basis.

Nature doesn't give a flying fuck for whether we think that killing each other is wrong. So whilst the nature of the universe is true reality we, as we live each and every day, promote a "fake" existence for ourselves.

Reputation Comments on this post:

i hate your sig but i like your references to pandas.

[Pino]

If someones tells you feelings generated by certain experiences aren't real and you start discussing the matter, he already scored a point in the discussion. Because you have to defend yourself. Better is to use a more agressive approach. -No, don't punch the guy in the face. Try to be verbal and friendly.-

One of the things you have to determine of yourself, is whether you differentiate between real and 'fake' feelings. Is there some discriminating factor between the two? If you don't think so, ask him what he thinks the discriminating factor is. And why does he dislikes those fake feelings? You can explain to him, the argument doesn't apply to you, because you worth the realness of feelings less than the pleasure you derive from it.

Use your fantasy, but don't try to defend the realness of the experience, whether you think it is or not. Just play, you don't care and discard it as a subjectivity. He can't be turned anyway. You will begin an lengthy discussion, which shares a lot of properties of discussions between theists and atheists, which are really boring and not fun.

You have to think outside his box and start hammering on it.

[Fantasian]

I dunno, while i agree wholeheartedly with you guys you have to look at where the teenager is going with it. And i believe that the next comment to come would be
"But then dont you get used to feeling happy and normal events and normal stimulus doesnt seem worth it in comparison to the bombardment to neurones that drugs can supply"

I think thats where the question is stemmed. And to be perfectly honest the only way to understand that they're not the same is to try it out. Especially in the sense of MDMA. In SWIF's mind cocaine is a little differant but thats a whole other kettle of fish.

[MrG]

But then that is a completely different issue altogether.

Abuse, instead of Use, of drugs is not in any way connected to the philosophical nature of experiential sensation. It is a sociopolitical issue.

E.G. Said Drug Abuser constantly shoots heroin into his veins each day in order to create a particular sensory and mental state. Criticism of said drug abuser is purely subjective as it requires a judgement based on ones own values. Often these values promote the critical view of the junkie in that he is less likely (due to society's removal of easy access to his high) to be a productive member of his community. He has opted out.

What are the rights and wrongs of that?

Now, look at some surf bunny who bums around on his dole cheque "catching rays and riding tubes" or some such crap. He is no different from the junkie in many ways. He gets his high through experiental sensation riding his surfboard. He is not a productive member of his community. He has opted out.

What are the rights and wrongs of that?

[Fantasian]

hmm, your right but i didnt even mean it in that context either. In ones own mind the above post i made applies. Noone can argue that the experiences that drugs give arn't intense or have a significant impact on thought processes after all thats their point. I think that once someone has tried a drug they do loose a certain naivety that can never be regained. Im not saying it's a bad thing but there is definately something lost and something gained when one experiences such intense emotions in such a way.

Just my 2 cence

[tayo]

Originally Posted by vantranist

Perferibly in words that a Teenager would understand?

I know why i think its not a valid argument but i cant find the right way to express it.

"You're a fake feeling!" *walks away*

Reputation Comments on this post:

Haha, win

[wafflesincars]

Well, with respect to this subject I've had many a conversation.

My roommate abides himself to not imbibe any sort of psychoactive substance purely because he's quite comfortable with the world that his senses present to him in their natural calibration, and rather feels no need to go mucking them up with things that shouldn't be in the body.

He is always questioning the necessity of such substances, as per there isn't any particular necessity if they are taken in recreation. As in "why facilitate more risk than is necessary, because you can?"

Personally "because I can" has always been a very fitting reason to do anything, it implies that you are getting away without adverse effects, but that's neither here nor there.

As I see it, beyond our perception there exists things that are there, regardless of whether we acknowledge their existence or whether we have given meaning, relevancy rather, to them. That is reality. Now we have evolved a very finite perception of matter and the elements that manipulate our surroundings, therein my argument was that human inference and perception is imperfect and not "law".

The ability to perceive different patterns from frequencies beyond the normal spectrum, and more importantly derision of patterns beyond the sum of embedded patterns that are behavioral thought, may in fact be attainable through changing the parameters of the sensors so equipped.
But my only problem with my argument is that thusly what relevancy does anything derived from these patterns have on the natural state of being.

If you are able to emotionally better yourself, or pervade your daily life with a more productive pattern, then good for you, but since you have reached a "rational" or rather a conclusion that adheres to natural state of being couldn't you have reached that conclusion through natural thought process? If so, what was the necessity of the usage? Cheating does not suffice to fulfill an answer.

I'd like to know what Drugs Forum has to say.

/rant

Reputation Comments on this post:

Because Ican is a good reason, but many wont understand. Nice post.

[stoneinfocus]

You might leave it, but the argument, to validify your state of existence and perception, by exploring as many new ways drugs are able to offer with your native thinking and perception, is a valid argument, that one can´t deny.

If this way of exploring is not the one you choose -it´s okay as is the other.There has to be distinctoin and versatility in every aspect of our lives, hasn´t it?

[wafflesincars]

Originally Posted by stoneinfocus

You might leave it, but the argument, to validify your state of existence and perception, by exploring as many new ways drugs are able to offer with your native thinking and perception, is a valid argument, that one can´t deny.

If this way of exploring is not the one you choose -it´s okay as is the other.There has to be distinctoin and versatility in every aspect of our lives, hasn´t it?

But how does "tricking" your sensors validate any aspect of the realism of the trip?

As per subjectively it feels real, but beyond what we purely perceive there are things that exist with no regard to our perception. How do you extricate the essential reality from what you can gather is the answer we are all looking for.

As far as emotion being "real or fake" the chemicals released are the same, and the same state of mind is reached but what really determines emotion is the significance of it. What factors contributed to this feeling and why does your mind create this feeling in this instance.

I need to stop posting on the forums high

[MrG]

^^^ High on life you mean, as I am sure you wouldn't ever wish to incriminate yourself by suggesting you had taken anything illegal. Please read the rules.

As for the idea of "tricking" ones sensors I referr you to the skydiver analogy posted previously - The adrenaline thrill achieved by said plummeting fool comes about by the fact that he is "tricking" his sensors into releasing the "fun" chemicals because they are actually supposed to be there for the whole "fight or flight" response thing in order to keep him alive. His decision to jump is voluntary, his body is simply responding as if he was a caveman with a huge sabre toothed tiger standing in front of him, as in "oh shit,oh shit,oh shit,oh shit,oh shit,oh shit,oh shit,oh shit,oh shit,oh shit,oh shit,oh shit" - He gets away from said predator "WooHoo!!! I made it!" (body shaking from the adrenalin, brain buzzing from the intensity of the experience, endorphins being released) - Same response from the skydiver once he lands safely on the ground!

As for the validity of the two scenarios, well can't you see how that is purely a subjective issue?

Why is one more or less valid than the other?

[wafflesincars]

Originally Posted by MrG

^^^ High on life you mean, as I am sure you wouldn't ever wish to incriminate yourself by suggesting you had taken anything illegal. Please read the rules.

Oh never, I hear that pot makes you gay!

Heavens no, I was flying on the grace of my life.

The argument that I am entertaining is that of my roommate, essentially it comes down to what dissociated values the individual upholds their self to. In respect too why one is more significant than the other, the same emotion is reached but in the instance without the substance your body is responding to a stimulus which is actuality could be "hazardous to your health".

Essentially you see the predator and you respond chemically, but even if you didn't see that predator it would still be able to eat you. That's what the significance is, jumping out of the plane is similar, it is essentially the same as looking for predators and enjoying the rush; but in those instances there is a real threat.

It isn't you snort the blow and feel the predator, it's the threat is there and can actually kill you instantly. That is what detracts from the "meaning" of those feelings.

Swim personally enjoys fabricated sensations, but I am not in any way deluding myself by believing that what I'm subjectively experiencing effects anything other than the subjective aspects of Swim's life.