What do you say to somone who says drug are "fake feelings"

[vantranist]

Perferibly in words that a Teenager would understand?

I know why i think its not a valid argument but i cant find the right way to express it.

Reputation Comments on this post:

yes it IS a valid argument. just not yours...

[enquirewithin]

Ask them what a 'true' feeling is?

[Nagognog2]

Then tell them that no matter what they do - not to think about a horse's white tail, and then walk away.

[Alicia]

tell them this, look em in the eyes and kiss there fore head and smile back at them. Pat them on the shoulders and say theres "no cure but the fire" and toss them in to the burning ring of fire for judgment and walk away.

[stoneinfocus]

I´d say "you feel it, so it´s real."

[fnord]

drugs mimic normal chemical reactions in the brain, some people are naturally happy others take drugs to be happy,both methods work basicly on the same brain functions/mechanics so by thier deffinition all feelings are fake,IMHO of course

[Sky Walker]

Punch them in the face. Then simply ask them if the pain they are feeling is real. If they don't get it punch that fool again and refer to the end of fnords post.

I'm sure you wouldn't punch their face, a nip however will convey the same message, feelings are just chemical and electrical impluses. Action, reaction.

[fnord]

who cares if there fake just as long as they feel real

[AntiAimer]

Tell them, "I like to get high!" then skip away.

[grandbaby]

Ask a Zen master. If that doesn't work, ask a Rabbi. Or a Benedictine monk.

http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v06n1/06133spi.html

Rinzai Zen monk: "It is like a climber walking in the mountains who is lost in the fog and unable to see the peak he has set out to climb. All of a sudden the fog clears and he experiences the reality of the peak, and gains a sense of direction. Even though the fog moves in again, and it's still a long, hard climb, this glimpse is usually an enormous help and encouragement."

xx

[the rabbi] implied that the MDMA experience was of the same quality and potential value as other mystical experiences, and suggested that priests should take the drug themselves, both in order to understand young people, and to see the validity of spiritual experiences produced by drugs. He referred to Abraham Maslow's conclusion concerning 'peak experiences': that taking drugs is like reaching the top of a mountain by cable car instead of the toil of climbing - it can be seen as cheating, but it gets you to the same place.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Awesome post :)

[stoneinfocus]

^^ wise words it´s the same spirit, like we can´t sell ephedrine for circulatory issues anymore, because it´s used by many others for staying awake, and burning fat and bulking muslces.

Like -"Oh, it works, and for things other, than it´s sold? That´s not so Royal, if you´re asking me, if it works for anything other, than for what it´ s supposed to, than we have to ban it! -Not to think of, if it tasted like oral sex and was psychologically fun to use too! -we´d probably had to round up the mob to kill the user and get laws, that make special squads necessary, which were very attractive to be occupied by violent-loving fascists and hooligans, that´d provide some fatalities during the execution and investigational procedures to the objects...like with heroin and ... "

[stoneinfocus]

getting an orgasm while the penis is in the anus or the mouth, is a fake orgasm

Reputation Comments on this post:

	h aha. good point about what is fake.
	VERY GOOD (old intensely happy chinese sensei voice)

[Nature Boy]

I despise the notion that emotions felt under the influence of drugs are "fake". That is an insult to SWIM and all of the truly great life-enhancing moments he's experienced using drugs. Drugs can adorn the world we live in. Anyone who completely rejects that idea may well be afraid to explore the inner extremities of their own mind. Fear is a pathetic thing in this context.

[fnord]

theres life saveing meds for high blood presure i gusse acording to your friend those just create a false sense of still being alive,right?

[stoneinfocus]

Originally Posted by fnord

theres life saveing meds for high blood presure i gusse acording to your friend those just create a false sense of still being alive,right?

That´s for sure, you see, god doesn´t want you to live, that´s why he gave you high blood-pressure

[shagra]

from wikipedia's shulgin entry ::

He would later write that everything he saw and thought "had been brought about by a fraction of a gram of a white solid, but that in no way whatsoever could it be argued that these memories had been contained within the white solid... I understood that our entire universe is contained in the mind and the spirit. We may choose not to find access to it, we may even deny its existence, but it is indeed there inside us, and there are chemicals that can catalyze its availability."

Reputation Comments on this post:

very well put(by shulgin)

[Bio-Cellular Enigma]

What they presumably mean is that pleasure isn't coming from ordinary life events, but from a non-ordinary source (ingestion of a chemical substance).

As it's essentially a negative moral judgment, ask them to explain precisely what they feel is wrong with that (particularly if drugs aren't used as a substitute, just an additional source of enjoyment or exploration of the mind). Hopefully that will provide the necessary catalyst for intelligent discussion/debate.

[lulz]

Tell them that if drugs create "fake feelings", then drinking a lot of alcohol creates a "fake feeling of being drunk".

Alternatively, get them drunk and ask them if what they are feeling right now is a real feeling or not.

Careful though, someone who makes a big deal out of drugs creating "fake feelings" probably isn't ready to deal with the fact that all our feelings are "fake feelings".

Reputation Comments on this post:

Fantastic post!

[Bio-Cellular Enigma]

Originally Posted by lulz

Careful though, someone who makes a big deal out of drugs creating "fake feelings" probably isn't ready to deal with the fact that all our feelings are "fake feelings".

What's THAT supposed to mean? Feelings "just are" (if in fact there are any at a given moment). Other than making arbitrary value judgments to serve some preexisting agenda, what's the point in labeling feelings as either "real" or "fake?"

[lulz]

Originally Posted by Bio-Cellular Enigma

what's the point in labeling feelings as either "real" or "fake?"

Note that I surrounded the term fake feelings with quotation marks, I wasn't making a value judgement. My point was that if feelings are "fake" because they are caused by chemicals, then all feelings must be "fake".

Although if anyone has a rational argument for feelings being "real" I'd love to hear it.

[MrG]

When a skydiver jumps he gets an adrenaline rush.

What he feels is as a result of his decision to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.

When a stoner tokes he gets high.

What he feels is as a result of his decision to reach over to his stash box and spark up a fatty.


There is no difference other than the fact that the skydiver is using his internal stash of chemicals.

"But smoking dope is bad for your lungs"

He is jumping out of a FUCKING plane!!!

Reputation Comments on this post:

	haha, most excellent post.
	Hahahahahahaha oh man, way to make a great point

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by grandbaby

Ask a Zen master. If that doesn't work, ask a Rabbi. Or a Benedictine monk.

http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v06n1/06133spi.html

Rinzai Zen monk: "It is like a climber walking in the mountains who is lost in the fog and unable to see the peak he has set out to climb. All of a sudden the fog clears and he experiences the reality of the peak, and gains a sense of direction. Even though the fog moves in again, and it's still a long, hard climb, this glimpse is usually an enormous help and encouragement."

xx

[the rabbi] implied that the MDMA experience was of the same quality and potential value as other mystical experiences, and suggested that priests should take the drug themselves, both in order to understand young people, and to see the validity of spiritual experiences produced by drugs. He referred to Abraham Maslow's conclusion concerning 'peak experiences': that taking drugs is like reaching the top of a mountain by cable car instead of the toil of climbing - it can be seen as cheating, but it gets you to the same place.

Theres something like that in this video - Attack of the Happy People

Actually I think the description you quoted is from the video, which was produced by maps I believe. Theres an interesting dichotomy of opinion between various Rabbis they interview though, among other people.

[Cakes]

How about the feelings you get from listening
to love songs that are produced for commercial purposes?

or from watching hollywood movies:

fake love
fake terror
prewritten jokes
paid actors

why do we watch?

and why the hell are we trying to convince a teenager of anything anyway? perhaps we could say "How excellent that you have given this some thought and are willing to talk about your observations to date!"

[stoneinfocus]

oh yeah, mathematics and science are just fake models that will never reach the laws of nature to perfection.

Logic is just a fake of nature´s evolutionary plan of integration and evolutionary adaption to the enviroment, that´s gotten completely off the cast.

[ProtectedByTheGods]

Not to be taken too serious:
Lace the dude with some LSD, MDMA or whatever, then ask him if it feels
real enough for him.