Extraction - Lucid & Visual Morning Glory Extract Theory

[tregar]

Reputation Comments on this post:

extremely interesting thread.

[tregar]

Part II

*This is what Stretchman had to say about "only alcohol/water mix extractions":
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quote:Originally posted by TWENTYXINSANE:
Ya think I could get decent results using nothing but 190proof Everclear and skip the Naptha, it sketches me out? You said 180 proof worked wonders but did you first do a Naptha wash or use it alone?

Thanks again

Peace


Stretchman replied:

"190 proof?!?! Go for it (this suggestion void where prohibited by law)!!!! I would strongly encourage the naptha wash though!
I used a naptha wash each time this extraction was performed. I would do a naptha wash first to weed out "undesirable" chemicals in the seeds. Even if the "undesirables" were inert rather than (slighty) malicious, the goodies would be more readily absorbed by the alcohol, if the solute is just goodies and not extraneous matter found in the seed. This means a more refined ("better") end product. Also, skipping the naptha wash will make the nausea factor more pronounced (way more so than a water extraction) and by the same token potentiate the weird effects from the other "undesirable" compound. The alcohol focuses these side effects into sharp relief when these compounds are in solution, probably making a person very sick, uncomfortable, and not *tripping* by any definition."
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*This is what Stretchman had to say about using store-bought Naptha:
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"My associate followed the above extraction instructions using naptha bought at a local hardware store (Crown brand, if I can say that here). He evaporated the seed mash for three full days on layers of paper towels, in front of a fan, stirring the seeds several times a day. After three days the seeds were totally dry and there was no trace of naptha when smelled, just a pleasant, mildly nutty smell. After completing the extraction into 190 proof grain alcohol, he tried it out, mixing the grain with cranberry juice (Great mixer, BTW!) To his horror, when he downed this mix there was a distinct PETROLEUM AFTERTASTE. Well, he didn't go through all that trouble just to let that stop him, so he tried to forget about it and enjoy the experience. On the plus side, the first four or five hour were very pleasant indeed, with mild prismatic visuals, bright col
ors, and deep mind expanding thoughts, and an overall feeling of goodness. On the down side, the next three DAYS consisted of headache, nausea, dizziness, visual distortion (not the good kind), fatigue, sleeplessness, stomach irritation, loss of appetite, and a general feeling of, "I am a dumbass, I poisoned myself, maybe I will die." (so says my associate) He feels all right now, but who know if there will be negative effects down the road.Just a word to the wise, from the unwise. Good luck!
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*This is what Stretchman had to say about the appearance of the seed powder in the pure petroleum ether:
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"In that case Spork, I would agree. It absolutely must have been the naptha. The mixture of seed powder
and naptha is supposed to look whitish and slightly cloudy, with no oil slick evident."
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*This is what Trakman had to say about the appearance of the seed powder in the pure petroleum ether:
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"In practical terms, if you examine the effect of the solvent being used for "petroleum ether" in this process on the seed meal, you will observe the following: After shaking the mixture well, Zippo lighter fluid and other substitutes will retain a brownish color. Some substitutes will also exhibit the same kind of "tendrils" that appear when you dissolve the meal in water. Reagent grade petroleum ether will remain clear after shaking and the meal will fall immediately to the base of the jar. Nothing will remain in suspension. When you filter the seed meal after soaking in reagent grade petroleum ether, the filtration process is nearly instaneous and the seed meal will retain its appearance as separate grains throughout. With substitute products, this filtration process takes several minutes to half and hour. The seed meal is "gummy" afterward and much harder to dry."
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*Nogal had this to say about HBWR seeds vs. morning glory seeds:
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"I agree more test definately need to be done in this area, but its possible that pure LSA is alot different than whats in morning glory. Experentially HBWR seeds and morning glory shouldnt even be compared to one another, which indicates that there are other compounds at work. Morning glory is much more similiar to LSD in its visual properties than HBWR, which is more body oriented."
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PE, reagent grade can be found at local science hobby supplier/chem shop or elsewhere for doing dried ground beef (or other food product) fat analysis to determine its lipid content for science fair projects.

The tartaric acid (used to balance acidity of wine in wine/beer making hobbies) also sounds promising added at a 5% or so ratio to the final everclear extraction pull to aid in converting LSA material to stable long-lasting salt form. Tartaric acid is sometimes used in making an imitation lemon juice, or as a substitue for lemon juice.

I would really like for Peter Webster to relay comments on what his trips were like...I want details! One of the advanced members at bluelight (seems like a genius chromatograher too) was able to contact him and get his comments noted in the above post above concerning a few things. Chemistry is great and all but I want a trip report with that!

The kykeon is the active ingredient of the potion which inspired the great philosophers, mathematicians, scientists, artists, architects and poets of ancient Greece who we recognise as the progenitors of Western civilisation, the sacrament which was revelation for these greatest of the greats was an analogue of LSD: A naturally-produced lysergic acid alkaloid whose effects were identical to those of that "greatest of all evils," that "diabolical drug which destroyed a generation," that "fly now, die later drug," that "greater threat to the nation than the Vietnam War," (to quote merely a few of the more tame epithets that have been hurled at the revered sacrament of Eleusis in its newly discovered form.)
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Here is a short summary of what went on at the LSD symposium:

In January at the Conference in Basel, a speaker Peter Webster brought up his experiments w/ extractions of Morning Glories. Which involved a simple basified extract (I'll detail below) of Morning Glories which yielded ~2mL of a light colored syrup that flouresced bright blue under UV (which is characteristic for for simple lysergic acid amides) with ~2mg of this syrup was obtained a full on psychedelic experience remarked equally as strong as high dose LSD trips he had experienced. At the conference he goes on to hypothesize that a ergine/isoergine basified solution was likely the Kykeon of Eleusis. Though he admits there remains uncertainty about ergine/isoergine and their psychoactivity in isomeric equilibrium; as such it remains to be pointed out why some people with some preparations HIT THE BULL'S EYE! and others get little other than SEDATION.

... The procedure involved extracting finely powdered Heavenly Blue Morning Glories w/ Ethanol. Most ethanol was evaporated off in a rotovap, added a bit more water, basified the messy solution w/ ammonia (to make sure alkaloids weren't in the salt form) & extracted 3x w/ dichloromethane, combined extracts were extracted with w/ water containing 5% tartaric acid. The alkaloidal-tartarate solution was basified w/ ammonia and extracted w/ dichloromethane. Evaporate DCM leaving a light coloured syrup that fluoresced bright blue under blacklight.
..

Prof Nichols had this to say in response to the proposed hypothesis put forth @ The Basel Conference:

"Although the pharmacology of isoergine (and even ergine itself) is not well studied, in other lysergic acid amides the iso epimers are generally inactive, at least when compared to the normal amides. Therefore, I still believe that ergine must be the species active at the receptor, but if the ergine/isoergine
equilibration can occur at body pH and temp, then ergine could be generated in the brain from
isoergine. This may be a key point, and you should go back and look at the Tetrahedron paper
where they apparently did some kinetics on the process.

Thus, I think that isoergine would lack pharmacological effects. But… there is another factor to consider. Absorption and partitioning through the body and into the brain only occurs with the unprotonated forms of alkaloids. That is, ergine is an alkaloid that will be protonated, or charged, at body pH. As such, before it can be absorbed from the gut or cross into the brain, it must lose its charge, or give up its proton. In the uncharged form it will readily cross into the brain, but this fraction is relatively small, perhaps only a few percent of the total.

Because of the ability of the amide of the D-ring of isoergine to form a stabilizing hydrogen bond
to the amine nitrogen, it can deprotonate very easily at body pH, giving a neutral species that will have a very high lipid solubility. The intramolecular hydrogen compensates for the energy cost of deprotonation and
desolvation. Using semiempirical methods, I calculated the length of this hydrogen bond to be about 2.65 Angstroms. Somewhat long, but reasonable. The work you cite in tetrahedron could be used for parallel discussion, but I don’t have the paper here. The consequence of the hydrogen bond is that isoergine will be
absorbed much more readily than ergine, and will penetrate the brain to a greater extent than ergine. Once inside the brain, however, facile epimerization of isoergine will lead back to an equilibrium that contains ergine, which is most likely the form of the molecule that I believe is active at the receptor. Importantly, however, I think the concentration of ergine could be much higher than if ergine itself was taken, IF
epimerization of isoergine back to ergine can occur at physiological conditions. Thus, at the brain receptor where ergine acts, a much higher concentration will be achieved than if ergine had been administered originally. If isoergine did have significant pharmacological activity, something which I doubt, but without evidence, it could be there in pretty high concentration, compared to what would be there after pure ergine
administration. So, the question is: if isoergine is placed in pH 7.4 at 37 degrees C, will a significant amount of ergine arise by epimerization in a reasonable amount of time?

This process is completely analogous to the proposal by G.P. Migliaccio, T.-L.N. Shieh, S.R. Byrn, B.A. Hathaway and D.E. Nichols, "Comparison of Solution Conformational Preferences for the
Hallucinogens Bufotenin and Psilocin using 360 MHz Proton NMR Spectroscopy", J. Med. Chem. 24,
206-209 (1981) to explain the high lipid solubility of psilocin, compared to bufotenin. In that paper, the authors proposed that an intramolecular hydrogen bond forms between the 4-hydroxy group of psilocin and the side chain amino group, providing enhanced penetration into the brain. Similarly, in isoergine, the hydrogen bond between the amide hydrogen and the unprotonated basic amine provides a very lipid-soluble, neutral substance that can easily be absorbed and penetrate into the brain. In pharmaceutical terms, we could consider that the “bioavailability” of isoergine would be much higher than that of ergine, following oral administration."
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And a few comments relayed from Peter Webster on another forum:

Reading it through, I see two misconceptions that could be corrected.

morninggloryseed says
"I assume that the 'boat' vs the 'chair' thing is
referring to d-ergine vs l-ergine. D-ergine is
flat, while l-ergine is not. Also very
interesting to hear Owsley's comments about LAOH
(he refers to it as 'hydroxymethyllysergamine'
but I am certain it is either a misprint or a
mistake as the chemical is
a-hydroxyethyl-d-lysergamide.) I had long ago
theorized that this may be the real active gem in
the seeds. Animal tests all point to it being an
active psychedelic.and it is indeed the closest
thing to LSD found in nature.far closer than
d-ergine. Owsley claims Hoffman himself told him
that LAOH is very LSD-like. I wonder if Hoffman
has notes in the Sandoz library about his
experiments. Maybe they are still being
translated. I am buying this book for certain."

the boat and chair forms are just alternative
conformations of the D-ring, not different
isomers (d- vs l- has the hydrogen at position 5 going in the other direction.)

The hydroxyethylamide long thought to be
psychoactive actually can never reach the brain,
since this compound is a labile adduct of ergine
and acetaldehyde. It is therefore transformed
into ergine and isoergine rapidly, even by mild extraction methods.

vbest regards,
peter

and....

Quote:
>Do you mind if I post your comments to the thread?

Please do. Also a comment about the graphs: The question here is what
conditions is the extract subjected to (and for how long) before (and
maybe even during) the HPLC? For instance, some researchers believe
that perhaps all the content of MG seeds exists as the
d-hydroxyethylamide, and it is the extraction/purification/testing
procedures which then produce the APPARENT result that the alkaloids
are ergine, isoergine, and maybe still some hydroxyethylamide. Thus
your testing procedure might also be subject to this problem. A test
that would fill us in on some important data would be to have the
rate of epimerisation of ergine to isoergine in basic, neutral, and
acidic media (and yes, the equilibrium is not far from 50/50). For
this, you'd need to separate one epimer with chromatography, and then
measure optical rotation over time. A little tricky to get it right
unless ypu've done similar testing before. LSD takes a week to
equilibrate even in basic conditions (to 88:12), whereas lysergic
acid itself is almost instant in strong base (to 85:15).

Prof Nichols believes the ergine-isoergine equilibration is rapid even in body
fluids, I suspect it is not, and that this is one reason for the
uncertainties we deal with in the book. But no one's got the hard data!
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Around page 180 in the book there are drawings that attempt to visualize the molecules of ergine and its epimer in their true 3-dimensional state, and the conformations that result when put into a solution where they are allowed to reach an equilibrium state.

So we have the possibility that ergine can be in one of three states: it can be ergine in the chair or boat conformations, or it can be iso-ergine in the chair formation. And in many chemical and physical situations, the 3 forms are constantly converting themselves from one to the other, and achieving a typical equilibrium distribution.

Webster states "In morning glory seeds prepared according to our suggested method, and in seeds as prepared by Mesoamerican shamans, we are not dealing with pure chemically synthesized ergine or pure iso-ergine. Both pure compounds have been tested and found wanting by some investigators, including Dr. Hofmann."

The equilibrium mixture may actually be the TRUE psychoactive substance, formed in a solution over several hours.

If you ingest a PURE COMPOUND of ergine or a PURE COMPOUND of iso-ergine, this may NOT result in the equilibrium mixture arriving at brain receptors.

Important according to Peter's theory:
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*The EQUILIBRIUM REACTION takes some time to occur, about an hour or more....and happens best and quickly by basic conditions -- and you can't find these conditions in the stomach nor in the blood -- because these are not basic conditions. In other words, for best effects -- to achieve the equilibrium reaction -- make a good solution extract -- give it time to react.
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Ipomoea violacea (tricolor)

From "The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants" (2005) by Christian Ratsch:

"According to Schuldes, a low dosage consists of 20 to 50 seeds, a moderate dosage of 50 to 150, and a high dosage of 300 seeds or more; only with moderate to high dosages was he able to observe LSD-like effects (Schuldes, 1993, 86f.*). Other sources suggest chewing and swallowing 5 to 19 grams of seeds or grinding them and allowing them to sit in water for thirty minutes (Gottlieb 1973, 37*).
A cold-water extract of 300 crushed or ground seeds is said to correspond to approximately 200 to 300 ug of LSD (Rob Montgomery, pers. comm.; Veit 1993, 548). The LD 50 of the isolated alkaloids is said to lie between 164 and 214 mg/kg in rats and between 1 and 2 g for humans."

There is also an interesting on-line interview with the Bear Owsley where he hits on a derivative of LSD that the ancients may have discovered and prepared for the Eleusis mystery quoted here:

"B: Well, people could say the same thing about LSD, they could say there’s sassafras and there’s nutmeg in nature, and there is morning glories and ergot in nature, but you have to do the chemistry in order to make something that’s effective.

O: No, that’s not true. Ergot contains many natural, highly psychedelic alkaloids. Iso-ergine is one of them, hydroxy-methyl-lysergamide is another one, and in fact, is considered nearly identical to LSD in effect. Albert Hoffman told me so himself. They believe that it was this derivative contained in extracts of c.paspalum that was used in the Eleusian Mysteries.

B: It’s true, they did a water salt solution.

O: I believe that they will find a plant which contains the exact diethylamide of lysergic acid in natural form. In alkaline alcoholic medium the isomers of the amines of lysergic acid will reach an equilibrium. This equilibrium will be a certain per centage of the iso compound, and a certain per centage of the normal compound. Of all the compounds listed experimentally by Hoffman, LSD has the highest ratio of active to inactive isomers in the equilibrated mixture, it runs 88-12. Of all the compounds, and it lists about 20 of them, it has the highest ratio of active to inactive. This means that nature favours the active form of LSD over the inactive by a considerable margin."

*note in the above interview the compound may have been mis spelled, and instead they are referring to
D-lysergic acid alpha-hydroxyethyl amide (otherwise known as D-Lysergic acid N-(1-hydroxyethyl) amide or other name for d-lysergic acid methylcarbinolamide.

A few more quotes of good vibes morning glory experiences:
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Stretchman: "Yes, SWISM noted the swirling organicness of SWISM's trip. There was much
preoccupation with the cyclical nature of things, such as one may extrapolate from watching ripples in
a pond. At one point SWISM rearranged the living room furniture into more natural, circular patterns.
It heightens one's awareness to the point at which one can see the interconnectedness of all things
quite clearly. Previously unheard-of energies can be sensed. It can be a meaningful and beautiful
trip.

There is definitely a unique type of consciousness present when one explores this plant. However,
the type of experience is very different depending on how the plant material is prepared. Many
different aspects of the same entity. SWISM's favorite is a yellow tincture; it was this that brought
forth SWISM's most lucid and deep visions.

It is definitely a similar experience to that induced by LSD or Psilocybe mushrooms. It is gentler
and more natural-feeling than the average LSD trip, "cleaner"--feeling than the average mushroom trip,
and depending on preparation many times more lucid and relevatory than either...or both at once--
(yes, SWISM's been there).

Were it legal to do so, SWISM would concoct a batch of LSA-rich liquid, then promptly dose
everyone in this thread with the mystical tincture. Perhaps then minor differences of opininon would
be less apt to explode into flaming, and new understandings could be reached."
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Stretchman: "Twenty years ago when I was employed as a nomadic space pirate, I tried the method
of seed sprouts as a tea for myself. I found that I still got significant nausea from this method,
plus a feeling of sedation that was entirely unexpected. However, I didn't get the weird leg
pains/twitchiness that most people who eat the raw seed or consume a CWE often report.

The best method I found to enjoy these seeds is described in the Gigantor LSA thread which
lurks around here somewhere. Basically, the tincture provides an experience which would seem
to combine the best qualities of a psilocybe mushroom trip with the best qualities of an LSD
trip, with zero body load or weird symptoms (aside from the entheogenic state itself)."

For those that are interested in pursuing a dream of consuming the raw plant material, one can
certainly anticipate some nasty hypothetical side effects. While these side effects might be
important from an ethnographical/anthropological standpoint, they can detract from an otherwise
life-changing experience.

The whole LSA/MG issue is a convoluted mess of opinions. I suggest researching the subject
as much as possible. If nothing else, it should be entertaining.

Extraction can accomplish two goals:
1. It removes toxic compounds from the seed
2. It unlocks the mind-blowing potential of this plant

Hope this helps.
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Stretchman: "An extraction performed in the manner described in the initial post produced no nausea
whatsover. In fact it was the cleanest and most interesting trip SWIM had ever taken. To reiterate,
SWIM would consider a theoretical extraction like this hypothetically quite feasible and pleasurable
were it legal, apart from questions of NP solvent purity."

Okay, to clarify, the LSA's as I have prepared them, are every bit as ragingly rugged as good old LSD,
perhaps more so!!!

The "cleanness" of the "trip" (cleanness inquotes because I don't think there is really such a thing as
"dirty" acid, acid being the main basis for comparison of the LSA experience) would make this, IMO,
the ideal substance for the psychedelic neophyte. That and the exceptional lucidity of the trip. Either
that, or I just get along extraordinarily well with this particular plant."

Infraredroses: "One cannot emphasize enough the extraordinary beauty and grandeur of an
extracted LSA trip. It has been a long time since I visited this ally in her realm, and my heart
yearns. The naptha issue is a controversial one indeed. One must do what one feels right."
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Pharmboy: "I did a cold water extraction out of about 300 seeds. I used ice cold tap water, and did 3 soaks.
I simply ground the seeds up in a coffee grinder, put them in a cup, added ice cold water and stuk it in the
fridge for an hour. Drew the cold water off with a syringe, and added more. 3 pulls in total--around 100ml
water tota. The water didn't taste bad at all.

It was one of the most visual trips I've ever had. Not only that, a hit of DMT at the peak was like absolute
heaven (which I have yet to replicate on any psychedelic). I was very sedated though. I managed to stay
awake for most of it."
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Pharmboy: "My absolute best psychedelic experience in the last bunch of years was a weakish
300 seed CWE trip with DMT smoked at the peak.

I'd love to see the MG/LSA secrets unlocked...For sure."
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Spunion Elf the second: "Morning glorys are visual if you take about a thousand and do an extraction.
For a one step extract water is better than alcohol, because alcohol dissolves more of the stuff that makes
you sick. But, if you use a nonpolar solvent to remove all the noxious shite first, alcohol does a wonderful
job of extracting the goodies and is easier to evaporate than water."
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Mezza: "First attempt - 9g of Heavenly Blues--crushed the seeds with a hammer and did a cold water
extraction. The water didn't taste too bad. Mixing the wet seed pulp and eating it w/Lemon Yogurt was bad.

Took about 2 hours to come on with a good 45 minutes of considerable nausea. After the nausea passed,
excellent trip. Great, LSD-like visuals (but slower) and very lucid. Great body high, music was fantastic."

2nd time--9g of Flying Saucers in a cold water extraction. Minor visuals, but a very auditory trip. Was by
himself on this one and felt a little spooky. A good trip, but not anything compared to the first one."
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woundsarehealed: "the strongest trip that swim ever had (with anything!) was with about 10g morning
glory seeds (heavenly Blue) and 3000mg vitamin C (3 pills) all ground up in a coffee grinder and soaked
in water for 1 hour. Then he drank it, and had minor stomach pains....after about 1 hour and 30 minutes,
he had a wonderful body trip (somatically intense).....2.5 hours into the trip he had very strong visuals,
and no more discomfort. Very mystical experience for 9-10 hours!!! Was very wonderful! (so he says).
To help the stomach discomfort next time, a good remedy to ingest with it would be some kind of leaf
mint. help alot!!!"
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GoaM: "Man. A friend of mine sent me some morning glory seeds. I crushed and ate 17 grams last
night. First few hours were nausea and sedation. Should've taken a dramamine first. Well anyway, the
shit hit HARD after a few hours. Fuck man. I'm talking colors, fractals, hardcore patterning. This stuff
is great. I LOVE LSA. It's great stuff, and the colors are very beautiful."
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genaro: "well I have had quite a few visuals (both CEVs and OEVs) from HBWR (8-13 seeds) and
morning glory (15-30g which is 500 to 1000 seeds)...which was THC free in quite a few cases.

On my very first trips with these (let's say the first 3-8 trips) there was no "trip routine" and I could
get very nice OEVs such as very nice and brightly coloured Kalaeidoscopeic/vortex stuff all over the
walls of my room, beautiful."
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Mxindustry sheep: "I once purchased a very good (very potent) batch of heavenly blue seeds.
Open and close eye visuals 200 seeds. Very pleasant after you throw up: P, but once it's out it's out."
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~erebus: "I have yet to try HWBR but I have some experience with morning glory seeds. I had the most
intense trip I've ever had with them, strangely enough.

Time perception was heavily distorted, and all I remember thinking was "WOW". My vision was
completely filled with geometric patterns, much like you would find on a tiled floor with patterns."
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thefungalfiend: "I've eaten large amounts of morning glory, and can definitely attest to their
ability to produce visuals. Rich, complicated visuals. Take more. Erowid doses are all wrong
on this. It saids 10g is a Strong dose? That's just getting started. That's why no one feels these
things, because no one is taking enough. The best trip I had on them was with 25 grams."

nolly: "please, no one take this seriously--an ounce of seeds would be a bad thing to put
in your stomach, afoaf ate a few grams years ago, and had signficant side-effects (nausea,
gastrci cramps) that made the experience a big negative overall."
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innatebeat: "I've never really gotten a clear idea of how good LSA really is. Finally I tried it and
had AMAZING results. Definetly not as strong as LSD but definetly comparable. Have any of
you guyz had any similar experiences? I honestly felt like I had uncovered a secret...HAHA, I
mean the only drawback to LSA was the nausea but after that passed I would definetly say it
was worth it. I honestly felt a genuine happiness, a need to better myself, and finally was able
to say goodbye to some harsher substances I'm into...If any of you guyz have been thinking of
giving LSA a try I definetly recommend it, I'm no NOOb either, I've had my share of psychedelics
and this one has got to be at the top of my list, simply because its natural...I even liked it better
than fungus...

VertexShader: "In my expereince LSA has been truly blissful and euphoric. No visuals or insights,
though. Not much of a mindchange, but I guess I haven't done enough."

Xorkoth: "As for LSA, I find it to be definitely more sedating and more natural feeling than LSD.
If you can get past the nausea, you'll enter into a wonderful trip which generally is much less visual
than LSD, but includes instead feelings of extreme euphoria and closeness with nature. I've never
tried high dosages of either, but while I enjoy LSD more for various reasons, I find LSA to be very
enjoyable as well. But unless you can make a damn good extraction, you'll first experience nausea
on a level above that which most psychedelics give."

Cat Again: "I have had 3 experiences with HBWR. My first 2 were with 8 and 10 seeds respectively.
Both gave similar effects which consisted of me feeling sedated and nauseated. And once those
effects pased it felt more like rolling than tripping.

On my 3rd experience I tried 13 seeds (yes I realize now that my seeds were not of the best
quality, but I don't really know where to get the ones that require only 4 seeds for full effects)
and it gave me a trip as deep and powerful as a high dose of mushrooms or LSD. At the time of
the trip I was swearing that it was the most amazing experience of my life and could never be
topped. I felt the oneness I do on LSD and the connection to nature I do on mushrooms.

The seeds truly are amazing and if you have been disappointed by them I recommend you try
again either with a different batch or a higher dose."
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Psychedelics_r_best: "The only time I had a marvelous LSA experience was when I ground up
about 500 seeds, put them in lemonade, chugged down, and smoked weed about two hours later.
It was amazing. Like nothing else I've ever tried. Visuals and all."
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dilated_pupils: "I did 10 grams (appox. 300 seeds) of Morning Glory Heavenly Blues. The first
time it was just amazing, intense visuals, morphing, tracers, my mind was going insane. I had
a great time! The second time however, I ended up feeling sick the whole time, and tripped way
too hard and found myself having a bad time so I just went to bed."
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xxanxx: "I always had great sucess doing the simple cold water extraction on the MG seeds.
I usually use about 15-20 grams and grind them up, soak in cold distilled water, and filter through
a t-shirt. Then I add a teaspoon or two of ginger (for upset stomachs) and smoke a joint or two--
great trip, more powerful than any acid I've taken!"
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Abbreviated Name -------------------------------- R -------------------- R1--------
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LSD-25 --------------------------------------- CH2CH3 ----------------CH2CH3-----
*Ergonovine (Ergometrine) ------------------------- CH3 -----------------CH2OH----
*d-Lysergic acid N-(1-hydroxyethylamide) -----------CH3 ---------------------OH---
*ergine-------------------------------------------- --H------------------------H---

*some of the compounds found in the seeds

Paper by Dr. Nichols on "LSD and its Lysergamide Cousins":

The mechanisms of how LSD operates in the brain is still not understood completely. Little more was done with
lysergamides related to LSD after the late 1950s, except in Dr. Nichols lab. Even he has been puzzled by some
of his findings. It is no longer thought, however, that a serotonin blocking action, or antagonism, is the effect
of LSD in the brain.

Today, the mechanism of action of LSD and related tryptamines is that they stimulate, or have an agonist effect,
at serotonin 5-HT2 receptors. But the situation is probably not a clear as this, at least with respect to the actions
of LSD. Whereas the most important event may be the ability of LSD to interact with brain 5-HT2A recepotrs, it
also has actions at many other brain receptors that may amplify, modultate, or influence its overall effects on
consciousness.

In addition, LSD is only a "partial agonist". That means that it lacks the ability to activate fully the receptor to
the same extent as the natural neurotransmitter serotonin. Serotonin can activate the receptor 100%, but
activation of the receptor by LSD typically only reaches 20 to 25% of the maximum.

LSD must have some pharmacological property that makes it much more potent than one would expect, based
on an analysis of its receptor affinity characteristics.

http://www.heffter.org/review/Review...roups%20LSD%22

END of hypothetical/theoretical paper.

[tregar]

Thanks aminorex. Sure no problem, let me break it down.

I am attempting to get into contact with Peter to see if he can send me a paragraph or so describing the trips he had in more detail...but in the meantime,

The main point is that the chemist Peter Webster presented a speech at the January 2006 LSD Symposium. In this speech and also in the book "Sacred Mushrooms of the Goddess" (May 2006) he explained that he was able to make an extract of morning glory seeds that glowed bright-blue in a solution under a blacklight and produced trips as equally as powerful as high-dose LSD trips.

We know for example that Dr. Hofmann did experiments with pure synthesized ergine from the seeds and had un-inspiring trips with it.

We also know that Dr. Hofmann did experiments with pure synthesized iso-ergine from the seeds and had un-inspiring trips with it.

However, Peter Webster states that the what Dr. Hofmann should have also done was make an extract from the seeds in a solution (similar to the methods of the traditional Indian extraction--but refined to eliminate the nauseating and other toxic compounds.) If he had done this, it is most likely that he would have experienced a profound psychedelic experience.

*Webster's explanation of how he was able to produce such a potent psychedelic extract is that his extraction procedure allowed the equilibration of the orginal extracted ergine from the seeds to form three ergine variants (ergine-boat conformation, ergine-chair conformation, and iso-ergine chair conformation), and it was this mixture that was so effective. He states that we do know, of course, that sometimes a mixture of two or more drugs can be more effective than any single drug alone.

*The main point is that the equilibrium mixture of ergine and iso-ergine (found in the seeds) may actually be what is causing the potent psychedlic effects of his extract when it is prepared properly. Even the Aztec shamans' tradional method of soaking the seeds in cold water for a few hours will result in a mixture of the three states responsible for the effects.

Trakman.du's and Stretchman.du's extract, as well as Peter Webster's extract will result in a mixture that allows this equilibrium to take place as well as remove the "fish-eye" effects and "nauseating" compounds found in the seeds.

When the equilibrium is allowed to occur in solution, then ingested (in solution form--not an evaporated down tar) it should result in a lucid and visual powerful psychedelic experience (as this trio-of drugs resulting from the equilibrium can reach the brain-receptors intact) with no weird body effects or load appart from those resulting from the entheogenic experience itself.

Trakman believes that the multitude of posts posted by people who have used Naptha, zippo lighter fluid, coleman, or other hardware-store variety petroleum ether extracts have resulted in non-psychedelic experiences because these lower grades of petroleum ether remove all or part of the LSA's in the first step--which then get thrown away--instead of remaining in the dried seed mash like it would if using reagent grade petroleum ether.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great post, many thanks.

[tregar]

SWIM will post any comments from Peter Webster if he gets a response, hopefully in a few days, but not entirely sure if SWIM has his most current email address, but is checking into it. It is also a holiday weekend.

SWIM has a few pages of chapter 15 scanned from the book in a pdf file that explain his theory, extraction, and drawings of the molecular structures of ergine and iso-ergine conformations.

SWIM would attach it here as a pdf file but is unsure as it would most likely break the rules. But the book is not expensive, SWIM found it locally at a bookstore.

The many trip quotes in the postings is just to relay the fact that indeed, according to some people, the morning glory trips do induce visuals.

I have also read about 4 reports on this forum that were very visual, but steps were not taken in the extractions to eliminate the nausea and other bad effects. The trip could be enhanced significantly by learning from a few experienced researchers and posters. The nausea can be really intense with large numbers of seeds, and if not eliminated, can detract significantly from an otherwise life-changing experience.

I was very impressed with the anym poster who said he liked to put on a good pair of quality headphones in the dark--listen to music--and then would see pyramids, rotating geometric forms, living forms, grand architecture, etc. from his extraction. Sorry the post is some 17 or more pages long--it's just that the whole subject of morning glorys is a huge mess of differing opinions--and I hope to convey the research that indeed shows that it is possible according to some people to eliminate nausea, toxic "fish eye effects", sedation, and other undesireable effects and arrive at a lucid, visual extract--but only if the directions are followed exactly as stated--reagent grade P.E., don't allow the amides to be subjected to sunlight either. Light, heat, and air are all known to de-compose the amides. Extraction experiments were most likely best applied in the dark outside with the use of a 40watt red-light or similar. Evaporation of the seed mush is best done over the course of several days in the dark as well with no forms of heat used, there are many factors to consider, like the quality of the seeds to begin with--that they are fresh and potent and not several years old, the final everclear soak should be carried out in a fridge etc, tartaric acid could be added at a 5% ratio to form stable salts with the everclear soak, extract should glow under blacklight...the final extract should be stored in an amber light proof bottle, many factors to consider.

[tregar]

My apologies, He mentions nothing about "eating the seeds" not working but does mention that eating the pure compounds of ergine or iso-ergine may most likely not result in the equilibrium forming--and this may be the reason Dr. Hofmann experienced poor results from the pure compound. Dr. Hofmann only experimented with pure compounds and not extracts as also mentioned by Jonathan Ott.

That is the question also posed by a Dr. Nichols (who runs the Heffter institute on psychedelic studies) to Mr. Webster.

Peter believes that the equilibrium reaction takes some time to occur, perhaps an hour or more, and is brought about most reliably and quickly by basic conditions, and neither in the stomach nor in the blood do we find basic conditions.

*First a comment from Dr. Nichols about Mr. Webster's hypothesis:

Prof Nichols had this to say in response to the proposed hypothesis put forth @ The Basel Conference:

"Although the pharmacology of isoergine (and even ergine itself) is not well studied, in other lysergic acid amides the iso epimers are generally inactive, at least when compared to the normal amides. Therefore, I still believe that ergine must be the species active at the receptor, but if the ergine/isoergine
equilibration can occur at body pH and temp, then ergine could be generated in the brain from
isoergine. This may be a key point, and you should go back and look at the Tetrahedron paper
where they apparently did some kinetics on the process.

Thus, I think that isoergine would lack pharmacological effects. But… there is another factor to consider. Absorption and partitioning through the body and into the brain only occurs with the unprotonated forms of alkaloids. That is, ergine is an alkaloid that will be protonated, or charged, at body pH. As such, before it can be absorbed from the gut or cross into the brain, it must lose its charge, or give up its proton. In the uncharged form it will readily cross into the brain, but this fraction is relatively small, perhaps only a few percent of the total.

Because of the ability of the amide of the D-ring of isoergine to form a stabilizing hydrogen bond
to the amine nitrogen, it can deprotonate very easily at body pH, giving a neutral species that will have a very high lipid solubility. The intramolecular hydrogen compensates for the energy cost of deprotonation and
desolvation. Using semiempirical methods, I calculated the length of this hydrogen bond to be about 2.65 Angstroms. Somewhat long, but reasonable. The work you cite in tetrahedron could be used for parallel discussion, but I don’t have the paper here. The consequence of the hydrogen bond is that isoergine will be
absorbed much more readily than ergine, and will penetrate the brain to a greater extent than ergine. Once inside the brain, however, facile epimerization of isoergine will lead back to an equilibrium that contains ergine, which is most likely the form of the molecule that I believe is active at the receptor. Importantly, however, I think the concentration of ergine could be much higher than if ergine itself was taken, IF
epimerization of isoergine back to ergine can occur at physiological conditions. Thus, at the brain receptor where ergine acts, a much higher concentration will be achieved than if ergine had been administered originally. If isoergine did have significant pharmacological activity, something which I doubt, but without evidence, it could be there in pretty high concentration, compared to what would be there after pure ergine
administration. So, the question is: if isoergine is placed in pH 7.4 at 37 degrees C, will a significant amount of ergine arise by epimerization in a reasonable amount of time?

This process is completely analogous to the proposal by G.P. Migliaccio, T.-L.N. Shieh, S.R. Byrn, B.A. Hathaway and D.E. Nichols, "Comparison of Solution Conformational Preferences for the
Hallucinogens Bufotenin and Psilocin using 360 MHz Proton NMR Spectroscopy", J. Med. Chem. 24,
206-209 (1981) to explain the high lipid solubility of psilocin, compared to bufotenin. In that paper, the authors proposed that an intramolecular hydrogen bond forms between the 4-hydroxy group of psilocin and the side chain amino group, providing enhanced penetration into the brain. Similarly, in isoergine, the hydrogen bond between the amide hydrogen and the unprotonated basic amine provides a very lipid-soluble, neutral substance that can easily be absorbed and penetrate into the brain. In pharmaceutical terms, we could consider that the “bioavailability” of isoergine would be much higher than that of ergine, following oral administration."

* Quote from Mr. Webster:

"Prof Nichols believes the ergine-isoergine equilibration is rapid even in body
fluids, I suspect it is not, and that this is one reason for the
uncertainties we deal with in the book. But no one's got the hard data!"

From the book:

"To understand the oscillation between ergine and its epimer, we must attempt to visualize the molecules in their true 3-dimensional state. The molecule is composed basically of rings of carbon atoms, to which are attached at various points atoms of nitrogen, hydrogen, and oxygen. The topmost carbon ring is designated the D-ring. Although the rest of the molecule is basically flat, with all the carbon atoms in one plane, the nitrogen of the D-ring is attached behind the plane of the molecule, not only giving the D-ring a decidedly zigzag shape, but ergine exhibits what might at first seem
a bizarre behavior; the D-ring is constantly flipping back and forth to an alternate shape or as chemists call it, a conformation.

The two shapes are designated the chair and boat conformations, because of their resemblance to those objects. The term "conformation" indicates that the forms differ only in their shape, not in the absolute positions of the atoms of the molecule.

There is also another change in shape that ergine and all lysergic acid alkaloids undergo: two constituents of the molecule actually trade places. This is the process already mentioned of epimerization. The hydrogen atom and the amide side-chain of the D-ring exchange their places of attachment. The reaction is reversible, and after a period of time reaches a state of equilibrium, with both ergine and isoergine present in a particular medium. The epimerization is typified in the case of each lysergic acid amide by an equilibrium concentration of the two epimers, and a time required to arrive at this state of equilibrium. These factors are determined by the chemical and physical environment in which the molecule finds itself.

One might expect that iso-ergine, like ergine would also flip its D-ring back and forth between the chair and boat conformations, but iso-ergine does not change its conformation, since it is prevented from doing so by the formation of a hydrogen bond, which locks it into the chair form.

But since in general the boat form of lysergic acid compounds is less energetically favorable, the hydrogen bond in ergine does not prevent it from changing its conformation back to the chair.

All these results were confirmed in a paper in the journal Tetrahedron by Bernardi and Barbieri, using infrared spectra of the compounds.

So, we have the possibility that ergine can be in one of three states: it can be ergine in the chair or boat conformations, or it can be iso-ergine in the chair conformations. And in many chemical and physical situations, the 3 forms are constantly converting themselves from one to the others, and achieving a typical equilibrium distribution. We therefore must consider that in an ergot preparation made according to our suggested method, and in morning glory seeds as prepared by Mesoamerican shamans, we are not dealing with pure chemically synthesized ergine or pure iso-ergine. Both compunds have been tested and found wanting by some investigators, including Dr. Hofmann.

The equilibrium mixture of ergine and iso-ergine may actually be the true psychoactive substance of the kykeon, and of ololiuhuqi as well. Since ergine spontaneously changes to iso-ergine when in solution, over a period of perhaps several hours, any process to partially hydrolyze the alkaloids of ergot such as our proposed receipe--or even the Aztec shamans' procedure for extracting ololiuhqui--should result in a mixture of the 3 states represented here.

Ingesting either ergine or iso-ergine as a pure compound, however, may not result in the equilibrium mixture arriving at brain receptors. The equilibrium reaction takes time to occur, perhaps an hour or more, and is brought about most reliably and quickly by basic conditions, and neither in the stomach nor in the blood do we find basic conditions."

A comment relayed from Mr. Webster:

"Also a comment about the graphs: The question here is what
conditions is the extract subjected to (and for how long) before (and
maybe even during) the HPLC? For instance, some researchers believe
that perhaps all the content of MG seeds exists as the
d-hydroxyethylamide, and it is the extraction/purification/testing
procedures which then produce the APPARENT result that the alkaloids
are ergine, isoergine, and maybe still some hydroxyethylamide. Thus
your testing procedure might also be subject to this problem. A test
that would fill us in on some important data would be to have the
rate of epimerisation of ergine to isoergine in basic, neutral, and
acidic media (and yes, the equilibrium is not far from 50/50). For
this, you'd need to separate one epimer with chromatography, and then
measure optical rotation over time. A little tricky to get it right
unless ypu've done similar testing before. LSD takes a week to
equilibrate even in basic conditions (to 88:12), whereas lysergic
acid itself is almost instant in strong base (to 85:15).

Prof Nichols believes the ergine-isoergine equilibration is rapid even in body
fluids, I suspect it is not, and that this is one reason for the
uncertainties we deal with in the book. But no one's got the hard data!"

Webster's extraction appears to be a double acid-base extraction.

The fact that Peter Webster, William Moxley, Stretchman, and Trakman.du all had lucid and visual experiences that encompassed the full spectrum of psychedelic effects (assuming they are all telling the truth) leaves much to be gathered from their methods and extraction procedures. Their comments, faqs, and writings have not been forgotten but only time will tell if the powerful experiences from their extraction results are duplicatable.

[tregar]

This is my last set of EXCELLENT morning glory posts:


QUOTE from hermes (lycaeum March 2003) on morning glory visuals & strength:
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Depending on seed quality, you should get some weak to decent effects from 8 grams, like mild reality bending, marked enhancement of aesthetic perception, insights, weak open eye visuals, moderate but subtle closed eye visuals (especially with music). I find that more satisfactory results are achieved with more seeds, like 14 grams or more. This much is needed to enter truly psychedelic territory. I wouldn't recommend this much if you haven't tried lower doses with the same seeds and method, however. LSA can cause significant vasoconstriction, causing restricted blood circulation to extremities. Make sure that your toes don't get numb or tingly on 8 or so grams first. And don't mix with other vasoconstrictives, like ephedrine or caffiene.

I usually just measure by Burpee bags. These are 1.8 grams each. I have used anything ranging from 3 to 12 of these. Strangely, the 12 bag trip was relatively weak. They must have been some old seeds. My strongest experience ever with MG seeds was with the Martha Stewart brand from K-Mart.

I had strong 4D lattice-like open eye visuals and warping and melting of furniture with only 400 seeds. There are about 32-36 seeds to a gram. The Martha Stewarts are more expensive than the Burpees. They are like $1.30 a bag or something close to that for a 1.2 gram bag. The Burpees are something like $0.88 a bag and each bag has 1.8 grams. That's $2.05 a gram for Martha Stewart seeds and $0.92 a gram for Burpee seeds. It seems to be a trade off.

My favorite way to go about this is to first wash the whole seeds in a bowl with a little water and a very small amount of liquid handsoap. I slosh them around and rub them a bit in the soapy water (not too long--could reduce potency). I then rinse them good with cold water in one of those screen vegetable strainers. This is intended to wash off any fungicide or other adulterants. I then dry the seeds well with paper towels. Then I grind the seeds in coffee grinder to a fairly fine consistency, but not to the point of being powder. The hulls should remain somewhat course, while the lighter colored inner stuff is pretty much powder. I then put this stuff into one or several empty tea bags. Don't overfill one. If the bags are small, use several. Next, put the bag(s) into a full glass of cold distilled water and use a spoon to press on them and make sure they are well-saturated with water. Let sit for 10 minutes in a cool dark place. Use spoon to squeeze and agitate the bag against side of glass some more to get more stuff out. Don't press too hard or you will break the bag and get seed mush into the water, which is undesireable. Leave for 10 more minutes. Squeeze again. Leave for 10 minutes. Squeeze. Remove bags after squeezing most of the water from them into the glass. You can suck on the bags if you want to get more stuff. I don't generally do this. Discard bags. Drink water. Get yourself into the mood with some good music and wait for effects. You might want to take a little ginger if you are worried about nausea. Usually I don't get any, but sometimes there is a little, probably partly from pre-trip anticipation anxiety.


QUOTE (trip report) from hermes:
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My favorite thing to do while on LSA is to play a musical instrument (guitar, didgeridoo, drums) or paint or do something meditative like that while I am coming up. Don't watch TV. It puts the wrong kinds of thoughts in your head and can result in a bad trip. When I am getting into it pretty well, I retire to the bedroom and turn off the lights and put on some good quality headphones with good music. This results in fantastic visuals unlike anything you have ever imagined if you have never used a good psychedelic before. I see amazing three and seemingly four-dimensional shapes morphing and bifurcating. Often I get religious and esoteric themed visuals, like fractal cherub wings and winged eyes like those in some of Alex Grey's work. Eyes are all over everything! I see pyramids and sphinxes and Gigeresque biomechanical forms. I see amazing geometric lattice structures. I watch mathematical space-filling algorithms doing their thing. I also find that I can control the imagery by an act of will. Anything I intend to visualize comes forth and then goes beyond what I had imagined and then transforms into something else. This is great for artists! I could swear that on one occasion while listening to Mozart's Requiem, Heaven itself opened up inside my skull! It was incredible! OH, THE BEAUTY! I saw glorious celestial architecture and there were seraphs singing along with the chorus in the music. I just can't even begin to describe what this was like. I had tears streaming down my face. I was in the highest ecstacy I have ever known. And all of this with a nothing more than a good mindset, good music, and only about 500 seeds. I'll never forget it. It was probably all in my imagination, programmed by my Catholic upbringing. I don't know and don't really care where it came from. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever experienced, and I still feel great joy when I think of it. I felt so whole!

On other occasions with LSA (I took it while in a less than ideal mind state), I felt like I went to Hell. Everything was empty and awful and terrifying and lonely. I felt like there were worms boring through my brain, eating it. I was a hole. That is the only way to describe it. I felt vacuous. I trembled with horror. Everything felt so incredibly meaningless.

I hope your experiences will take you to nice places. Be careful. Your brain is not a toy. Consider yourself warned.
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QUOTE from hermes:
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For me, they seem to be similar in both duration and effect. The only real difference I notice is that LSA is a little more lethargic, at least in the early phase of the trip. LSD is a bit more speedy. With LSA, I am much more able to lay around or focus on one task like painting. I also noticed that it is possible to go to sleep while still tripping on LSA, which is impossible with LSD. I slept once on LSA and had incredibly visual dreams! These were the most beautiful visuals I have ever seen under any circumstances. I dreamt that I was being shown the entire unfoldment of the universe, with the evolution of man, and it was all represented on this incredible spinning wheel. It was indescribable. I want to go to sleep on LSA again and attempt to have a lucid dream. That would be nothing short of amazing!

Anyway, my LSA trips last 10-12 hours or so, with slight effects that linger for another 24 hours or so. And I usually feel something like an afterglow for a week or so afterwards. During this period, I am much more creative than usual and happier too. I also notice that colors look slightly more pronounced for a week or so in a very LSA specific way. I never noticed this on LSD.

Comfortably_Numb asked where I buy my seeds from. K-mart and Wal Mart have been typical sources. The most powerful brand of seeds that I ever tried were the Martha Stewart brand from K-Mart (I had strong effects, with good open eye visuals, on only 300 seeds! I used a water extraction with some added lemon juice on this occasion. I do not know if this helped). Burpee seeds work well too, but didn't seem as potent as the Martha Stewart brand. The Burpee seeds are less expensive. I have never tried bulk seeds. As far as I know, the ones that I tried didn't have any pesticides. Nothing was mentioned on the package that would indicate this. I did always wash the seeds just in case, however.

If anyone tries this, inform us about the results. Tell me if the tea-bag method worked for you.

If the taste bothers you, you can add something to the water, but I wouldn't guarantee that it will not reduce potency. The taste isn't that bad. Just drink it fast.

Slimey, in order to get a crystalline product, you would have to go even further than the organic solvent/alcohol extraction. But the crude result that this method gives is good enough. You can just put the product in gel caps or something. With the water extraction, it is very difficult to evaporate the water without adding heat or having long term exposure. If you had a strong vacuum chamber, you could evaporate the water cold and leave behind the residue. That is the only good reason to use the organic solvent/alcohol extraction, to evaporate the alcohol and leave a solid product. But if you are just going to consume it immediately, why bother? Just drink the water. The taste is a small price to pay. And it isn't all that bad anyway. Put some sugar in it or something! Just don't make coffee out of it!
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QUOTE from hermes:
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Thank you Kosmo, for demonstrating that I do know what I am talking about when it comes to Morning Glory seeds! How strong was your experience? 750 seeds should have given a medium level trip if you extracted them well and they were potent seeds. Did you have any noticeable visual effects, with eyes closed or open? Did you do Morning Glories alone? I look forward to reading your report!

You see, people? He said, "no nausea!" Now notice that all the people who eat the seeds directly or extract poorly get sick as hell. Why someone would insist on getting sick just to get slightly more LSA out of a given quantity of seeds is beyond me. You will not get a 100% yield this way, but you can just add more seedsn and they are not very expensive, even in the seed packets.

So, Kosmo, after doing it this way, would you see any reason to do it any other way? It is simple and fast, isn't it? Can you possibly understand why so many people refuse to follow my advice? I sure can't. And it didn't taste too bad, did it?
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QUOTE from hermes:
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Was it sitting in a light place? Light will do the LSA harm.

I really don't know if or how much LSA would be destroyed by oxidation when it has been sitting in oxygenated water for a few hours. The most likely thing is that the seeds were short in quantity or potency, or the tea bags were not squeezed and agitated enough. The biggest reason to keep the extraction short is to avoid extracting more than the desired alkaloids and also for convenience. Were the seeds black? Were they Heavenly Blues? How many did you use? Were they this year's crop? Did you use distilled water?

The hardest thing to control is the freshness and potency of the seeds. If you buy the bulk kind, who the hell knows how old they are? The ones that come in packets are usually dated, if I remember right. I'll have to go look. And who knows where the seeds have been stored throughout their entire existence? Someone could have left them in a hot place for a time, which would annihilate the LSA.

But without at least the dosage, I can't begin to tell you why the effects were so weak.
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QUOTE from hermes:
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Undertow, you are not doing something right. If you perform a proper extraction using good seeds (and a large enough quantity), you will get strong psychedelic effects and no nausea without requiring any other substances.
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QUOTE from hermes:
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So, what sort of comparison would you now make between LSD and LSA? In my experience, they are difficult to tell apart. The taste in my mouth and the physical energy level are the only things that seem different. LSD causes a "taste hallucination" that resembles rusty iron, while LSA causes a taste somewhat like bee pollen. Also, LSA has a much more lethargic feel, at least in the early portion of the trip. Other than that, they are the same for me. Really, it seems like LSA is a little more visual for me for a given amount of mind alteration.
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QUOTE from hermes:
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What is it with eyes anyhow? Does anyone else see eyes filling their CEVs or OEVs? I see eyes, eyes in triangles, wings, eyes in triangles with wings, cherubim, seraphim, pyramids, pyramids with wings and eyes and caducea, utchats, lions, owls, cobras, and generally anything related to the Western Mystery Tradition. The first great "vision" I saw was while on Morning Glories and listening to Mozart's Requiem. When the Lacrimosa began, I saw incredible Angelic forms and felt this incredible awe and love for existence. I think I stole a glimpse of the Beautific Vision itself. I cried and sobbed for hours, in pure ecstacy. I knew, however, that I only encountered the very periphery of the "Inner Kingdom," since the cherubs revealed neither their hands nor their faces, just three pairs of wings. I had never seen them before this, in religious paintings or otherwise. I had not read the bible or anything before this had happened. Afterwards, upon doing a bit of research, I saw that they are commonly encountered by mystics of various cultures, especially in the West. In particular, I saw them in a book on Islamic architecture, painted on the ceiling of a Mosque. These looked incredibly similar to those I saw, only very washed out and a far cry from the real thing. These things just can't be painted. They have to be experienced.
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QUOTE from hermes:
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You want to surround yourself with nice, comforting things, things that make you feel safe. Just the slightest threat can
trigger obsessive feedback loops of paranoia. Although, this paranoia has seemed more prevalent for me on psilocybin than on LSA or LSD. Usually with LSA or LSD, I become less fearful than usual, which can be dangerous!

It always seems to me that with LSA, the highly visual phase is late in the session, long after body phase and introspective phase. I wonder if the occipital lobe (visual cortex if I am not mistaken) of the brain is one of the last regions of the brain through which the blood passes.
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QUOTE from hermes:
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"creation-in-us," where do you get this crap? You are all backwards. I have YEARS of experience with Morning Glories, i.e. tlitlitzin, and I know that LSA IS WATER SOLUBLE! I can show the MERCK reference if you want. You drink the water and trash the pulp! You are going to poison people with your advice! All the bad stuff is nonpolar and tends to remain in the pulp when the polar LSA is extracted with water. Do a little research will ya? Kids these days...
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QUOTE (trip report) from EndlessSky79 (lycaeum April 2006):
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This was my third time taking Morning Glory. I usually take it in a Shamanic context, grinding the seeds in the dawn, allowing the pulp to soak in cool water for three days, then ritually drinking the strained liquid. Well, my experience the other night was amazing....and not at all what I expected.

Background: Im a chronic pain patient, experienced with LSD, opiates, and in general view psychedelics as mind expanding allies...okay- onto the good stuff.

After pretty much a week of living hell due to my pain and Ultram (which does nothing), I decided that three nights ago, I needed a vacation. Not a little DXM vacation (I don't take much DXM on the scale- usually just enough to reach a lower '2nd' plateau...a lot like being drunk and stoned at the same time, but less disorienting). I needed something strong which wouldn't hurt my liver, which is damaged, and would bring me positive energy.

After deliberating, and a bit of prayer, I decided to take Morning Glory seeds and see where the night took me. At 9pm I took an anti-nausea pill in preparation for my journey. Little did I know what I was in for. I powdered up 200 seeds in the ubiquitous coffee grinder, and painstakingly transfered the powder (black shell husk fragments were removed by hand) into gelatin capsules. By the time I was done, it was about 10pm, and I was ready to go. I swallowed down 12 capsules, and laid down waiting for the magickal seeds to take their effect. I told Tlitlitzen (the name the plant spirit gave me on a previous trip) that I just needed a beautiful trip, and if there was any knowledge I needed, it wouldn't hurt, but I primarily needed a mental vacation.

At 10:45 I started to feel a little nauseous, however, this feeling was quelled by the anti- nausea pill (well, something good has come of my liver problems). Usually about an hour after ingesting the seeds, I vomit much like Linda Blair in that horror classic we all know and love. Not this time, though!
As I laid back on the couch, gazing at the ceiling, it slowly began undulating, and gently morphing colors from light pink, to green, to blue, and then back, as though the ceiling was dancing. (The ceiling is white). I raised my right hand before my eyes, and it seemed as though in an instant my hand was aged to the point of a 90 year olds'- almost skeletal, and then back to normal. However, this reminder of my mortality didn't bother me at all. I felt comforted, as though a huge, warm blanket has been wrapped around my body on a cold winters' night. I felt as though nothing could harm me, that I was a part of the cycle of life, and that the journey ahead was going to be good. When I looked over at my husband's (Eli) 'Invader Zim' house (DVD special edition holder), I could see it seem to grow. The lights within the 'house' looked as though they were on, and I fancied that I saw shadows crossing in front of the window where people might walk. It was an interesting hallucination.

At around 11:30, I got up to use the bathroom, however, my balance was slighly off. Eli had been giving me a gentle footrub, and my feet and hands were cold under the blue and white striped blanket which I had draped over myself. Unfortunately, nature called, so I got up to go to the restroom.
Now, according to traditional research and chemical knowledge, the active ingredient in MG seeds is LSA- derived from ergot alkaloids. The whole seeds, when consumed without any sort of distillation or purification process (such as cold water extraction) are supposed to produce some very unpleasant side effects. The majority of the ergot alkaloids which cause unpleasant side effects such as 'fish eye' vision and nausea are contained in the outer hull- most of which I had picked out- so I was pleasantly surprised at the smoothness of the ride so far. As I sat in the bathroom, the walls on the shower melted together in gentle pastel patterns- mirroring the ceiling earlier. I was completely enchanted by a body wash container that has a picture of lavender on it, as the lavender picture seemed to grow vines, and the flowers seemed to expand gently. I was sad to leave the bathroom, but happy to get back to Eli.

On my return to the comfort of the couch, I decided to take 3 balloons of nitrous oxide in order to facilitate the experience. (The two chemicals are very synergistic). Eli, despite the fact that he doesn't like nitrous, was kind enough to monitor me, and kept track of the time between when I first started to inhale the gas, and when I lost conscious control of my body. I laid back, and raised my left foot slightly. When the foot dropped- I'd be out. I cranked up the 'Magic carpet ride' remix by Fatboy Slim on my I-Pod, and brought the balloon to my lips. It seemed like forever for me, however, it was in reality about 50 seconds before I actually dropped my foot.

I was floating in a supremely peaceful darkness, feeling the presence of the feminine and masculine divine. I laughed while I was under, (I think sheerly from the joy of the feeling of being so unconditionally loved and accepted.) I then thought of Eli, and how much joy he gave me- then I floated back to my body, which was mercifully free of pain for a time, and told him how much I loved him. My second balloon caused beautiful fractal patterns (CEVs- Closed Eye Visuals) behind my eyelids. Again I felt that overwhelming presence, and was unable to communicate to Eli the sheer wonder of the experience. When I came back, the MG was very much accentuated by the nitrous oxide, and everywhere I looked, bookshelves were undulating. The blue light from a lamp we'd liberated from the dumpster the day before seemed to have rubbed off on the light switch across the rooom- a full visual hallucination.

When I closed my eyes, I could still feel the pull towards the divine space I'd felt earlier, and I tried to explore my feelings on it when I realized (was told, directed, or my mind decided it would be better) that I should focus on Eli. He is such an important, amazing part of my life.

The feeling and visuals I was experiencing can only be likened to the descriptions I've heard of people who take LSD and Ecstasy at the same time. I felt completely open- yet wasn't babbling. (At least, I don't believe I was, and Eli certainly wasnt looking at me in horror, so I assumed all was good.) I proceeded to have a long talk with Eli about my pain and how it's been affecting our relationship. He told me about many things he'd been thinking about. I am very glad we had that conversation.

At around 1ish or so, Eli went to bed. I decided to join him, and although I could see amazing interplays between the lights and the shadows in the bedroom, I closed my eyes and focused on the warmth of him. The way he smelled, the feeling of our cheeks and lips touching. We talked for a while, softly, and we held each other while talking about our concerns for the future- and decided that we would do our best to make things work. He said that he couldn't imagine a life without me, and I realized that the statement was true of me too. I wouldn't want to live life without him to share it with me. I want him by me every step of the way. We held each other in the dark for a time, until I realized I wouldn't be able to sleep....so I kissed him goodnight and went out to the family room.

Now, I misplaced my 'trip toy' of a fan which makes pretty light patterns, however, I turned on Eli's 'Lightning' blue lamp, and watched as the lightning seemed to ark all over the room, turning from bright blue to electric green and soft pink. I turned on the Beatles, and Magickal Mystery tour came on. I enjoyed the Beatles until a desire siezed me to go outside. I snuck back into the bedroom, for sweats, a Rainbow Brite sweatshirt, and my long 'pimp jacket'. When brought into the light of the room, the 'pimp jacket' seemed to take on a life of its own- changing textures and shapes- fascinating me with the never ending fluctuations of possibilities emerging from what a few hours before has been a simple coat. I put the coat on, and walked outside, closing the door.

There was a light breeze blowing, and as I looked up, I saw the firt 'true' hallucinations I've ever experienced. The stars seemed to multiply, and spiral softly down from the velvet sky, swirling and dancing in a rhythm that seemed to encompass all of nature. The 'shooting stars were so captivating that I had to sit on the sidewalk in awe. The bushes all around me constantly changed shapes and forms- going from rich earthy green, to a lighter color- the color of spring. The air smelled sharp, rich- full of growing things. I had to walk around and see more.

As I walked slowly around the apartment, the streetlamps were beacons shining out in the night. The light which is usually bright yellow pulsed between yellow, bright purple, and gentle blue, seeming to encourage me to come and stare at it- to touch the rays that looked so real. The stoplight on the street had 3 images which slowly swirled around each other.

The pine trees swayed and changed shape. The clouds above me were forming fantastic images (and I'm sure there weren't any clouds in the sky at the time). I saw dragons, nymphs, birds, all things from myth and fairy tale. I felt as though I was walking the line between where fantasy and reality meet, and it was wonderful. Despite all my prior experiences with good LSD, nothing even came CLOSE to this. I realized I should probably go inside, so I went back to the 'lightning lamp' and was mesmerized by the Mamas and the Papas while watching the colors pulse, and the bookshelves along the walls change shape slowly and majestically. One second they reached the ceiling- the next, they seemed two feet tall. My own feet seemed miles away. My statue of Ganesha danced, holding his tusk out, and growed an extra set of arms which seemed to hold a knife, a book, a flute, and an incense holder, which gently poured smoke out to vanish into thin air.

Finally, around 5am, the hallucinations were at a managable level (just vague undulations of the ground and halos around lights), so I decided to drive to the store. I made sure I was safe to drive by taking a test run around the parking lot. Sure enough, I was alert, and drove perfectly. Off I went to Rite Aid to get some chocolate! =)
With my booty in hand, when I walked out into the parking lot, I closed my eyes and recalled the feeling of the nitrous and the LSA. When I opened my eyes, the shadows seemed to play with each other and me in the parking lot- stretching out for space, then retreating, only to come back again- like a tide of soft blackness. I knew I had to go to the ocean to say a proper goodbye to my trip. The drive over the hill was uneventful. I almost thought the drug had worn off- although- if I had been tripping as hard as I had been a few hours beforehand, I never would have touched my keys.

I arrived at the ocean near dawn. I felt pulled to the waves- which sparkled- and suddenly, my trip was brought back full force. I felt like my old self again- the wide eyed innocent before the world intruded on my intrinsically optimistic beliefs. I walked out to the ocean, watching the ebb and flow of the waves, playing tag with the white, shining tide, and watching the stars glitter and occasionally multiply to form starbursts- my own private fireworks.
After a half hour, I called the Dennys by my house. My body needed food and rest in that order.

As I drove home, I was still enchanted by the interplay of shadow and light, but it didn't distract me in the least. I succcessfully bought my Moons over My Hammy and went straight home, goodies in hand. Once home, I had a few bites of sandwich, a rootbeer freeze, and a few chocolate truffles. The sun had come up, and so I took a few valium to ensure sleep. I also took hydrocodone- 40 mg. It slowly came over me in waves, and while watching the walls gently undulate and the television flicker cartoons, I drifted off into the Wonderland of my own mind.

I awoke at 1pm, feeling more rested than I have in a month. My pain level was down to a 6, and the memory and feeling of the night before stayed with me. Unfortunately, my eyes were still dilated, and I had a Drs appt at 3.
The bottom line is that Morning Glory is now one of my strongest allies. He is strong and a good teacher when I need him to be, and a generous tour guide through my imagination when I need a break.

I hope you all have a wonderful day. I can't remember a time when I last felt so free, myself, and so unburdened by cares and worries. It was truly amongst the best nights of my life.

Edit note: Eli came out at 8am, to find me completely knocked out on the couch. Apparently I still had the remote in my hand, with my arm fully extended. He tried to put my arm back so I could rest better, but apparently I wasn't in to moving. Oh- and I slept amazingly well the next night as well- with dreams I am sure were influenced by the LSA. Thank you Tlitliten!
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QUOTE from EndlessSky79:
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I was very surprised at the intensity of the experience as well! I've never experienced anything like it in my life..... I believe the fact that I work with the plant as a Shamanic ally usually plus the addition of the nitrous oxide literally threw my trip up onto the roof, whereas I expected a mildly hallucinogenic, mellow time. Also- every other time I've taken the seeds, I've ground them just as well, but thrown up the cold water extraction after an hour. Between the anti-nausea pill and the gelatin capsules, I believe it gave my body time to actually digest the whole amount of LSA. I will be repeating the experience with about 400 seeds after a few weeks. My brain definitely needs a rest, as does my body. =) Thanks for the welcome! I look forward to many more interesting experiences and reports while I'm here.
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QUOTE from EndlessSky79:
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Starshadow-

I so sympathize with the nausea problem...being ill sucks. Have you tried raw ginger? Candied ginger from Trader **** works wonders for regular nausea, as does 1 tsp freshly ground ginger put into a geletin capsule).

Now for your question: I was on compazine (25mg) for a while, but then suffered a phenothiazine reaction (apparently this class of meds can cause the pheno. reaction at ANY time- and after that you can never take them ever again as the seize will be worse.)

I was then put on Zofran- 8mg. Zofran made my MG experience possible. It works quite well....then, they give it to chemo patients, so it better ::grins::. Im sure your doc will try you on phenergan first (it's common and cheap) or compazine (see above comment about being common and cheap). =) Ginger (raw) is not, in my experience, strong enough to fight the nausea factor of MG, much the pity.
Thank you for noticing my description of feelings- for me, a trip isn't just 'pretty colors', even when I'm just going into it for recreational purposes.....I still get some level of spiritual work done. Besides, it wouldn't be a complete report without emotional status- enough people report freak outs. We need some good energy in the entheogen community!

As for the hull, once one grinds Morning Glory seeds in a coffee grinder (oh- be sure to grind in short bursts. LSA is VERY sensitive to heat, and it will be destroyed at much over room temperature.), you will be left with white powder (the main bulk), smaller tanish granules (the bulk that wasn't able to be powdered), and black bits- the husk. These bits are fairly easily picked out by hand. =) One doesn't even need to remove all of it- just the removal of the larger chunks was enough to make this trip amazing...but you read that already.
I hope your cat has beautiful visions. =) And I hope I didn't type so much that you got bored reading my response! Blessings!
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QUOTE from Shaganoz (shroomery):
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hm i find LSA just as good, if not even better, than as LSD. It's become my favorite psychedelic. And to whoever said he doubted the other guy hallucinated his balls off... sounds like you havnt had a real Morning glory trip and really SEEN its GLORY! I know for a FACT you can hallucinate pretty wild, I've seen the most remarkable things on LSA. True hardcore hallucinations, and to me it compares greatly with LSD. I usually just munch down the seeds raw, chew them very well and swallow. It may upset your stomach making you puke somewhat in the trip, but then it gets all fine again. I am however working on extractions these days to compare with raw seeds ingestions. My typical dose is around 800-1000 seeds, the most I have done was 1500 and then i tripped for 2 days straight. With hardcore hallucinations.
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QUOTE from pineal (lycaeum):
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prolix: that's great, i'm glad it worked for ya.
analog: yeah, i second everything you said there, man. For me, along with the euphoric sedated feeling, the visuals are freakin beautiful. Open-eyed, things do the melty washy visuals you get from this type of chemical, and like prolix said, your ability to imagine things and whatnot is definitely increased. And music sounds fantastic. good stuff.
pineal
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QUOTE from pineal:
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wow. I've never heard of it being sold on the street at all. I've found nobody even knows what the fuck lsa is. But i have found LSA to be sedative by nature, period, and that's what's been the biggest difference between LSA and LSD for me. Lsd's got that high-strung tweaky aspect to it, while lsa feels very sedating, almost mind-numbing, but thought stimulating at the same time.
And prolixity, post and let me know how it goes. I've done it along with 2 friends of mine, and it's worked for us. In fact the one time i did it using that prep method had to have been the best lsa trip so far. Hope it works well for you, man.
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QUOTE from pineal:
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As for chewing: i did this the first time i did MG, but damn the nausea was fucking unbearable. On subsequent trips until i learned this prep i'd just grind the seeds and encapsulate them, and horrendous nausea would ensue every time. And after a couple times of this i could just look at morning glory seeds and immediately feel ill. Ugghhhh...
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QUOTE from pineal:
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You won't find lsa on the street. No way...You'll find acid, sure...i've found when you just grind up the seeds and consume, my god the nausea is just too horrible. but here's a prep i've used, and i'll admit, when i was told how to do this, i was skeptical, but it really works.
1. go get your desired amount of morning glory seeds (i've found the perfect amount for my dog is 5 1.5g packets from let's say...home depot) and grind them up
2. put ground seeds in a glass, or some sort of see through container and juust cover with water
3. take the total volume (seeds+water) and add that much more water, stir vigorously
4. let it sit for NO MORE THAN 5 MINUTES. After five minutes or so, you're extracting all the crap...so stir about halfway through that.
5. filter the water through a shirt or something, to get the mush out
6. now filter with coffee filters over and over and over again, until your mind is numb from filtering. The more you filter, the less nausea.
7. now take the lsa juice and pour it into a full glass of Orange Juice. honest to god you won't taste it. gulp it down and you'll have a good clean trip, no nausea, for 6+ hours.
pineal
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QUOTE from undertowed_ (lycaeum April 2002):
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i took 5 packs of burpee heavenly blue... more like 4 or 4 1/2... i left a small pile cause i couldnt stomache it anymore... chewed a chocolate-chip cookie... dumped some seeds in the mouth... put another cookie in and chewed without gagging... repeate about 5 times... just the thought of the nausea the first time i did them makes me gag... almost right afterwards i smoked some grass and almost instantly i felt the effects.
this trip was different... the first hard lsa trip i had that wasnt a bad trip. all pain disappears in this place... my friend was shoving a thumb-tack in my arm for about ten seconds before i laughed and said 'what are you doing to my arm'. the effects were VERY close to mdma... almost made me wonder if the roll i had was cut with lsa (could have been). the usual reoccuring visuals i have from psychedelics came out to play... my multi-colored starbursted arrow-heads and lightning bolts... but now there were tribal aztec patterns all around... and actual images... everything was intertwined... it felt like i was swimming in cool water... the most pleasant thing i've ever felt... astounding chills all over the body... NO nausea... NO cramping or pain... 100% ecstasy.

i had a perma-grin... i found myself laughing uncontrollably at simple things... i sometimes found myself yelling very loud without realizing it... i noticed my friend meditating and decided to join in... i taught him how to work the astral doorways... we met in the astral realm in his apartment... i wanted to show him everything i could (he's against psychedelics... he's not mentally stable... so i wanted to give him a glimpse at 'the truth')... he nodded out... as soon as i nodded out he jumped up and yelled 'whoa... the entire room just turned black'... 'black with a phosphorescent-green outline?' i replied... 'yes... what was that' he said... 'that was me entering your world'... i said... he was shocked at the power i had in this place... i've been accustomed to it for years... we both nodded out... i appeared to him as a monk... i was through the doorway in seconds flat leaving him still on the couch... he said i disappeared insantly... all that was left of me was a star he picked up and looked at... he couldn't follow... he doesnt yet know how to enter a conscious dream realm... only a conscious dream of this world.

i was standing on an island... there was a round marble platform with 7 marble pillars... in the middle was a fountain spraying colors, sounds, emotions, words, feelings... truths... i bathed in it... a beam shot out of it... i saw the sun and the planets and the stars all in the light of day... this was my truth... i was teaching what this meant to a student in my dream... somebody else on the astral plane... i was their guide... i felt so high... i've encountered many guides on my astral journeys... this was the first time i was a guide to someone else in the realm... it felt better than i can explain... i pointed to the sun and said 'on earth as it is in heaven' i pointed to his head and said 'this is your truth'... then i became a tree... my branches were my ascending family... my roots were my descendants... my knowlege was my fruit... i nourished his soul with my fruit... i woke... everyone was looking at me... i was out for 5 minutes... humming and nodding... though i have no recollection of anything physical... sounds... body... anything.

i was astounded... all i could say was 'i... think... i was just in the garden of eden'...

we tried it once more, this time i summoned a dragon to take my friend with me... but the force of the dragon entering the room just pushed him out the front door of his apartment into the street... he did see the dragon outside of the window... but he didn't know i summoned it... he thought it was just a random thing... it's quite a phenomenon for two people to experience the same events in the astral realm... i was standing at a crossroads of life and death... to show my friend those parts of his mind... i asked him which path to choose... but he was gone... we woke and realized he couldn't keep up with my psyche so we stopped before we both exhausted our minds... lit up some more grass.

the rest of the night was spent laughing... swaying... running down halways wearing an american flag and a cowboy hat shooting 'spiders' with a joystick...

the peak...

i was lying on my friends bed staring at the ceiling... it's all bumpy and grainy... it started to sway like water... everything looked like water... i saw patterns within it... flowers... tribesmen... monkeys... insects... animal faces... it was amazing... then i saw a gigantic spider appear out of the wall... crawl to the center of the ceiling... stop... then (with eyes open) the entire room faded away to black... the gradiants on the ceiling reappeared in green... they were swaying... spiraling... moving... it was the most profound hallucination i've -ever- had... i simply couldn't speak afterwards... my jaw just dropped... eyes shot open wide... and a tear ran down my face while i repeated uncontrollably 'things like this once were not possible... things like this once were not possible...'... then i went home...

small peak at 3 hours... large peak at 5... effects lasted an hour into the next day... til 1 pm ( i ate them at 1 am )... some major euphoria the next day from how amazing the night was... still some psychological effects felt after grass smoked... just... burnt today... two days later.

all i have to say is... DO THESE... it's the most amazing psychedelic when mixed with pot... and it's legal... i had so many visuals and such a good body-buzz... amazing euphoria... i just with the ingestion process wasn't so tedious... i would have made a tea but had nothing to crush them with.
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QUOTE from Henry Bass, the book "tripping", 2000, page 149:
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Nothing remotely prepared me for the force of my final trip. One day, just before noon, I ingested some seeds with several friends, some who also partook and some who were there as observers or caretakers. We were lounging around the Manor, the ironic name we'd given to a seedy but spacious apartment near Harvard's Dunster House. After a while, I became sick and vomited so copiously I worried that the effect might be lost. I went to my bedroom and lay down and relaxed with my nausea.

Soon I found myself completely recovered, looking at a vast aquarium in the bottom of a glass of water. I remained fascinated with this for about an hour and then suddenly realized that what I was seeing had none of the attributes of a hallucination or dream. What I saw was indistinguishable from reality.

Excited, I ran into the kitchen and saw that someone had replaced my white Japanese lamp shades with bright red ones. This really shook me up, since it was "not" a hallucination. This was real, man! I felt completely sober and alert, while so many things around me had changed. My companions rushed in to see what all the ruckus was about, and I pointed out the red lamp shades, the wooden table that had become quartzlike, and all the new luster and colors that various things had taken on. I could see from the expressions on the faces around me that they did not see any metamorphosis in the lamp shades and moreover, didn't "want" to. A sour note! They were terribly disturbed at my insistence that everything had changed, that this time the drug had accomplished more than a dream. I could see they had no intention of joining me.

But I douldn't care less. Exuberant and overjoyed, I ran from the house, down the front steps, out into the street, flashed over three blocks in a matter of seconds, vaulted a fence, made a tremendously sprightly crossing of the highway--during which it seemed that traffic slowed and stopped so I could make my way--and ran over to the riverbank of the Charles to work out my ecstasy with somersaults on the grass.

I'd never experienced anything such as this. Even the insects sang for me in a multitudinous chorus. The range of my vision was vastly expanded. I couls see hundreds and hundreds of miles into the heavens and tier upon tier of cumulus clouds. After an hour of such unbounded bliss, I was totally exhausted from the mad runnings of my mind, as it vaulted head over heels beyond the limits of ordinary human thought. I grew too tired to think. Indeed, I have never been more enervated. After a long day's mountain climb, I always had a reserve charge of energy to make the final scramble over the last few rocks to the summit. But now I was completely drained.
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*editor's note: If a long cold-water extraction is done and a "soapy stringy" type of material is present in the water--I have read that this can be re-filtered out of the water with a wire strainer or similar to possibly arrive at a ZERO nausea solution.

*editor's note: hermes mentioned that one of the only other persons that she knew of that bothered to do a cold-water extraction on the forum was pineal. Both as you can tell had excellent nausea-free psychedelic experiences.

*editors note: In swim's part of the world, walmart has stopped carrying the seeds and the K-marts have mostly gone out of business (Sept 2006). If a particular batch of seeds has little to no effects, best to look into another brand and check date or freshness, how the seeds were stored--if stored in heat could have lessened the seeds effects, best results may come from seeds grown and harvested the same or previous season, stored in cool environment, etc. Check for prescence of extracted LSA amides with a blacklight (should glow bright blue) if final extract is a concentrated solution.

*attached is a one-page visual representation of the 3 conformations formed from lysergic acids in solution medium, from the book "Sacred Mushrooms of the Goddess" by Ruck with Webster (chapter 15).

*Many thanks to all of you who have written me with your comments or described your trips for others to view.

QUOTE from Jonathan Ott "Pharmacotheon": "Ololiuhqui was far more prominent as an entheogen here in Mesoamerica than those mushrooms; the mushrooms are mentioned only here and there by a few competent chroniclers; yet almost an entire book was devoted to denouncing mainly the ololiuhqui idolatry. The annals of the Inquisition contain many times more autos de fe for ololiuhqui than for mushrooms.

[allyourbase]

Ive heard of people doing quite similar by making a very weird extractor and using a lot of seeds, basicly theyd run the water through the seeds with a filter below, which would drop into another container containing seeds, and then another, and finally into a collection container, then they would run it through again, usually a few hundred times, a sort of cold water soxhlet. chemicly speaking cold water extraction is the only way to viably extract ACTIVE (key word there) lysergic amides.

[vantranist]

I was under the impression that non-polar solvents such as zippo would be sufficeint? At least as sufficient as eating the seeds plain.

[dip]

[paranoid]

[TitusCrow]

I'm quite glad to see this thread being viewed again, it supplies a LOT of great information which is very usefull if contemplating wether or not to try Morning Glory seeeds.

SWITC has tried eating some 400 seeds and experienced nothing but extensive vomitting.

SWITC then tried performing different extractions ( cold water, pet. ether ) and none of them worked.

Years later SWITC tried the same extractions he had tried once before and experienced mild LSD-like effects.

SWITC concluded that if the seeds you buy have been damaged or are very old, they will not work.

SWITC would advice testing smaller samples of different sources for the seeds to determine which source posesses the strongest.

[MadShroomer]

SWIM did a cold water extraction on roughly 500 seeds and drank it all after soaking for a few hours, and ate the slush at the bottom (seeds had been grinded in coffee bean grinder) it was tricky swallowing the seed mush, it was like trying to shove wet sandpaper down SWIY's throat :P
The effect was INCREADIBLE and SWIM spent the night on the beach setting off fireworks tripping balls! SWIM thinks the type of seed were Heavenly Blue if SWIM remembers correctly. Definately worth a try
oops almost forgot, the seeds were from an online "ethnobotanical" vendor and were 100% organic non treated. If SWIY were to purchase Tri Color variety at the local store this would result in a VERY unpleasant experience and vomiting plus poisin from the fungicide coating on the seeds. Make sure SWIY gets it from a good source and not just a bunch of seed packs from the store

[bottlekop]

Originally Posted by TitusCrow

I'm quite glad to see this thread being viewed again, it supplies a LOT of great information which is very usefull if contemplating wether or not to try Morning Glory seeeds.

SWITC has tried eating some 400 seeds and experienced nothing but extensive vomitting.

SWITC then tried performing different extractions ( cold water, pet. ether ) and none of them worked.

Years later SWITC tried the same extractions he had tried once before and experienced mild LSD-like effects.

SWITC concluded that if the seeds you buy have been damaged or are very old, they will not work.

SWITC would advice testing smaller samples of different sources for the seeds to determine which source posesses the strongest.

and if you don't want to buy them; pick them or grow your own(VERY abundant yield)!

MG is often like a weed. It grows all over.

[tregar]

Glad to see the hypothetical experiences are working for some.

The only book that contains some new information (a chapter) on MG seeds:

Page 182 of Sacred Mushrooms of the goddess published May 2006:

After a couple of days' work, I obtained a nearly colorless syrup that exhibited the bright-blue fluorescence of active lysergic acid compounds. A few milligrams of this syrup, taken in a capsule, produced one of the most powerful psychedelic experiences I had known, and by then I had already taken high-dose LSD several times.

Has any swim who has been successful used a 4' blacklight tube to check the glow of their cold water extract for a brief moment? Indole compounds flouresce bright bluish/white under blacklight, LSD also glows bright bluish/white under blacklight. Checking the glow of your solution may help to determine whether or not any of the numerous indole compounds were extracted into the water. Fresh seed cold water extract is most likely to glow much more than a similar solution of old seeds. This may help to determine whether or not the seeds are even active or inactive. A reagent can even be added to the extract to bring out the bright blue glow if there are indeed indoles in there--read 'LSD my problem child'.

The book Sacred Mushrooms of the goddess will explain why a quick cold water extraction works so well (read the pages about the conformations being formed in water page 181)--don't forget this is the method that worked for the Indians for hundreds of years. The more you mess around chemicals, the more time the seed extract is exposed to the elements -- air, light, heat, chlorine degrade the unstable indoles quickly. Read the book 'LSD my Problem Child' to learn just how unstable these compounds are--LSA, etc. No sense messing with chemicals if your seeds are inactive to begin with. All this talk about Zippo is worthless--Zippo also dissolves a portion of the actives along with the non-polar bad stuff--only reagent grade PE can seperate the two--none of the chemicals are necessary anyways--30 to 45 minute cold water extraction will suffice.

I repeat, zippo dissolves a portion of the active compounds along with the non-polar compounds (not good) Go to erowid and read the morning glory FAQ if you don't belive me.

Acetone is the worst to use, it dissolves not only non-polar (nonactive compounds) but also polar coumpounds (the actives). Look up acetone in a simple search--it dissolves both. So how in the world can you seperate the two? Hermes also said it would not work. Someone else used acetone on another forum and found out it also dissolved both.

Only reagent grade PE can cleanly seperate the two--read the MG faq at erowid if you don't believe.

In a hypothetical situation, if an empty tea bag is stapled shut with ground seed mash, and dunked in distilled water and put on a magnetic stirrer--swim can even watch as the white salty polar active compounds POUR out of the tea bag into the water--all of it within 30 to 45 minutes--no joke--a magnetic stirrer will stir the water--and as it does, the active white material can be seen exiting out of the tea bag like a whirlwind--little nauseating non-polar material comes out so long as extraction is kept short. Wow, what a dream.

The seeds seem to loose their potency very quickly--within months especially if they are not stored properly--very sensitive to heat, light, chlorine, even air. I would imagine storing fresh seeds right off the plant in a light proof and vacuum air tight container with all the air vacuumed out (think food saver canister attachment hose for canister jars) in a fridge would help a lot.

Page 181 of Sacred Mushrooms of the goddess:

The equilibrium mixture of ergine and isoergine may actually be the true psychoactive substance of the kykeon, and of ololiuhqui as well -- the Aztec shamans' procedure for extracting ololiuhqui (water extraction) should result in a mixture of the three states represented here--ergine chair conformation, ergine boat conformation, iso-ergine chair conformation.

Enjoy reading the experiences.

Technically speaking, petroleum "ether" is not an ether at all, which is essentially an organic oxide just as an alcohol is an organic base. Ethers in general are highly volatile compounds and come in the usual methyl, ethyl, butyl, etc. flavors. Petroleum ether, on the other hand, is the most volatile product produced through catalytic cracking in the process used to make gasoline, jet fuel, kerosine, and other petroleum products. The process is fractional distillation. Fractional distillation involves introducing a gaseous mixture of related compounds, in this case petroleum compounds into a cooling mechanism, in this case a cracking tower. As the gaseous products cool progressively, they liquify earlier or later depending on volatility. By controlling the rate of flow through the cooling mechanism and drawing off the liquid at specific locations along it, it is possible to separate compounds which are otherwise miscible. You can use the same process to separate methyl (wood) alcohol which is poisonous from ethyl (grain) alcohol which is also poisonous, but less so. "Petroleum ether" is the product drawn off from the top of the cracking tower. Reagent grade petroleum ether appears to be significant more volatile than "naptha" which is also drawn off the top of the tower and marketed as Zippo lighter fluid, Coleman fuel, and white gas. Perhaps reagent grade is subjected to a second distillation or perhaps is simply a more narrowly-defined drawoff. It is definitely a different animal.

In practical terms, if you examine the effect of the solvent being used for "petroleum ether" in this process on the seed meal, you will observe the following: After shaking the mixture well, Zippo lighter fluid and other substitutes will retain a brownish color. Some substitutes will also exhibit the same kind of "tendrils" that appear when you dissolve the meal in water. Reagent grade petroleum ether will remain clear after shaking and the meal will fall immediately to the base of the jar. Nothing will remain in suspension. When you filter the seed meal after soaking in reagent grade petroleum ether, the filtration process is nearly instaneous and the seed meal will retain its appearance as separate grains throughout. With substitute products, this filtration process takes several minutes to half and hour. The seed meal is "gummy" afterward and much harder to dry.

At this point it is pretty clear, that attempts to substitute Zippo, Coleman fuel, or other products marketed as "naptha" will not produce an active brew. This seems to explain some of the poor results reported in alt.drugs.

This is very true--I have observed this myself--Reagent (lab grade) petroleum ether will remain clear after shaking and the meal will fall immediately to the base of the far. Nothing will remain in suspension.

At this point it is pretty clear, that attempts to substitute Zippo, Coleman fuel, or other products marketed as "naptha" will not produce an active brew

Very true.

[tregar]

Grown your own seeds brothers & sisters...fresh is best...and nothing like having pretty blue flowers in your garden. Spring is near. Provide them with a fence or trelice to grow up. Buy a deluxe food saver and suck the air out of a canister jar and store the seeds in them in a fridge--they will keep much longer this way. We are dealing with unstable indole compounds here--do your best to preserve them intact. Use a blacklight for a brief moment if you want to check to see if your hypothetical dream water extract glows. Indoles glow under blacklight just as LSD does. Swim enjoyed reading the hypothetical dream experiences you've posted.

[tregar]

Tea-bag method is simplest and fool proof.

I do think that my tea-bag method makes things the simplest, with no torn filters or any such thing. Just grind the seeds, dump 'em in a tea-bag, stick the tea-bag in a nice cold glass of distilled water, let sit for an hour with occasional stirring and gentle squeezing of the bag, remove bag, drink water and wait for effects. It doesn't get any simpler!

Colder water and shorter durations limit the extraction more to the most polar compounds, but more seeds will be needed for the same results. In some cases, I have extracted for hours and still had a nice trip without any feelings of toxicity. The nasty stuff just isn't very soluble in water. It tends to stay in the pulp, being so hydrophobic. If a compound is nonpolar enough, it will never dissolve in water, no matter how long you leave it. I am not sure exactly how nonpolar the nasties are. All I know is that they are at least moderately nonpolar.

6 minutes just sounds like too short of a solvation period to me. I think most of the LSA dissolves slower than that, although I don't know for sure. It seems that the water needs a chance to really work through the pulp.

Many people think that is is a bunch of BS and it is hardly that. What I tend to find is that quite commonly, someone will make a half-assed attempt or two and declare the whole thing bogus. And usually, they are totally ignoring the advice of those of us who know how to make it work. Sometimes, they doggedly insist on doing it wrong, and when it fails, they tell those of us who have had amazing experiences that we were imagining it.

[schizo_frenic2007]

has any1 tried methylated spirits for the second part instead of alcohol? In the UK i dont think i can get Everclear, i only have 50% (100 prof) brandy. Also, i know every1 keeps sayin you cant use zippo lighter fluid, but i have read quite a few experiences where it works (probably not as well, admittedly) and its all i can get hold of so im gonna do that, but i cant find zippo fluid anywhere....i can find perma? is that alright? unfortunately it doesnt have the ingredients on it so i dunno if it contains any benzene or anything.

[tregar]

I've researched for ages, and the only really good reports (with visuals, strong trip) have resulted from a distilled cold water extraction from 30 minutes to a few hours (3 hours). A dash of tartaric acid or a few squirts of lemon juice help to make all of the alkaloids soluble in the water.

When chemicals are used, the extraction tends to get extended for a long time--giving more time for the sensitive unstable freebase alkaloids to break down before they are convered to a salt--and this is not being done under an inert atmosphere.

I've never understood why people have to make this so complicated by introducing chemicals into the equation--a simple water extraction will do just fine--water is polar and it will dissolve only the good compounds out of a teabag full of the crushed seed mush stapled shut and dunked in the water with frequent stirring and squeezing of the tea bag. The non-polar (bad compounds--oils, fats, waxes) will stay in the teabag and they do not mix into the water for the most part.

I can repeat this over and over, and yet out of 100 people, 99 of them will insist on doing it with chemicals and get no results, and the other 1 person will decide to do it right with a simple distilled cold water extraction with a dash of tartaric acid or lemon juice and have good results. Even if the teabag is left to soak for 3 hours in your water in the fridge, low to no nausea will result with excellent effects--so long as the seeds you used were fresh and potent. Water is polar, and the compounds you want out of the seeds are polar--so they will dissolve into the water easily--leaving the non-polar crap behind--yes it is that simple.

As an experiment: put your teabag full of material into a glass of water and then put it on a magnetic stirrer with a stir magnet in it. You can watch as the tornado whirlpool pulls the white salty good polar actives only out of the teabag into the water--it forms a tornado of white active alkaloids--leaving the crap behind. It is a tornado of pure polar active whiteness streaming out of the teabag. Magnetic stirrers are not cheap but if you have one give it a try and you will see this for yourself.

I've yet to read a decent report by anyone who has used chemicals besides stretchman--and even he admitted to me that he did not have any visual hallucinations per se, other than the chemist peter webster.

I've read a good dozen or so reports (with many visuals, music enhancement, low to no nausea etc.) by people who used a simple cold water extraction (no chlorine).

[Bajeda]

^^^^^

Thats where swim messed up with the HBWR seeds, he used tap water and realized about 15 minute after he put the seeds in because he wasn't thinking straight. He just ended up drinking the whole mix (7 Super-Strength Madagascar seeds) and getting terrible nausea that turned into a sweet roll after he added some MDMA to the mix. In any case, thats besides the point.


Tregar how would swiy compare Morning Glories - any type, though if swiy has a preference by all means list it - to Hawaiian Baby Woodrose or Rivea Corymbosa seeds? Swim has read a bit on the differences in alkaloids but not enough to develop a full understanding.

[tregar]

From my research, all of the really great effects occur with morning glory seeds again and again when compared with HBWR.

It could be do to the d-lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide that is in the MG--or the synergism of that particular compund with the others in the seeds:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Lysergic_acid_N-(%CE%B1-hydroxyethyl)amide

Also see the study by Glasser 1961 in the journal Nature to learn more about this compound.

HBWR has no history of shamanic use, but MG has thousands of years of shamanic use. The Indians also used the traditional water extraction method with filtering through cloth. Using a teabag is just a modern approach to the filtering. The Indians did not eat the seeds but today you will read hundred of reports of people eating the seeds against the wisdom of the age old method used by the traditional peoples--result is that they get very sick sometimes and counteract many of the good effects.

Yes, instead of tap water try distilled water with a couple squirts of lemon (citrate) juice or a dash of tartaric acid added--adding the acid salt to the water will insure that you get all of the alkaloids instead of just ergine and isoergine out of the seeds.

When you keep the non-polar crap from getting into your water by using a teabag--you then keep the noxious compounds out of the water--those compounds act to cause terrible nausea and actually work against the good effects--lessening and even counter-acting the psychedelic experience.

Fresh seeds are best. Good luck.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good posts on LSA / MG Seeds

[Chunkz]

Swim has a couple of questions.
1. what if he wanted to turn the extract into powder, so he could put it into some capsules?
2. Are Mg's really known for better reports than HBWR's?
3. What he doesn't have a green thumb, and wants to just purchase seeds, rather than harvesting them, will they work out alright? Enough to be worth it?

[genaro]

swim use drinkable alcohol or drinkable alcohol+distilled water (as it has no chlorine) and evaporate it at room temperature (soaking and evaporating are done in the dark).


in the past, swim has tried the non polar wash using "white spirit" which was then carefully evaporated before proceeding to the polar extraction, and it seemed to decrease greatly the extract potency (compared to other attempts where swim wasn't doing any non polar wash)

In the same way, swim noticed that evaporating the alcohol by heating at 100°C (alcohol in a dish, dish placed over a pan of hot water) would greatly decrease the extract potency (compared to other attempts where swim was evaporating at room temperature)

[tregar]

I've read a lot of great posts by Genaro, and he knows what he's talking about--much respect. His posts on MG are great reads.

When swim did a hypothetical reagent grade PE extract of 12 grams a long time ago then soaked the completely dried mush in everclear for one day, swim felt nothing but the alcohol, ended up putting swim to sleep.

The seeds vary tremendously in potency anywhere from 1 to 16 times. They loose potency quickly over several months in the heat, or when they are cracked or stored improperly, conditions they were grown in, etc.

On the other hand this 1 hour spring water soak in the fridge with 50mg tartaric acid (a very small amount--must use a gram scale accurate to within 10mg to measure) or two teaspoons lemon juice added to the water did work:

Hypothetically, only a couple grams of seeds sampled out of the total 8 grams solution was noticeable with enhanced music perception, uplifted mood, enhancement of visual/audial/mental perceptions.

Hypothetical method:

1) Hammer then grind 8 grams of seeds to a fine powder in low-light conditions (candle, or 40 watt red light pointed against a wall).

2) Put seed powder into an empty family sized tea bag.

3) Add 50mg of 99% DL racemic tartaric acid powder (it is a very fine white powder) to the spring water. Measure the pH , it should be around 3.5. Buy some pH paper for a few bucks. Tartaric acid is pH = 1.0 so don't use very much of it...this is much less...yes I said 50mg only...this is a TINY amount...it is much safer to use 2 teaspoons of lemon juice instead added to 16oz of water...both will get you to 3.5 pH in the water. You do not want to hypothetically be drinking water the ph of battery acid which is what tartaric acid measures at (ph = 1.0), so it cannot be overdone.

Stick with lemon juice, it is much easier.

So either: 2 teaspoons of fresh squeezed lemon juice (citrate) or only 50mg of tartaric acid. Citrate or tartrate doesn't matter. Both amounts will give you ph=3.5 in 16 oz of spring water. Chlorine in tap water destroys LSA & LSD & ergolines on contact.

Orange juice has a pH of 4.0....coca cola has a pH of 2.5....the extraction here with 2 teaspoons of lemon juice has a pH of 3.5 in 16 oz of spring water.

4) Staple the tea bag shut then Dunk it in 16 to 20 oz of ice cold spring water (a mason jar is perfect).

5) Screw the mason jar shut then put it in the fridge to soak for 1 hour.

6) Every 10 minutes shake the jar really hard then swirl it, then put it back in the fridge.

7) After 1 hour take the jar out of fridge and remove the tea bag--throw it away (it contains oily, stringy non-polar crap). Split the bag open if you want to observe that the oily stringy material stayed on the inside of the bag--then dispose of it.

8) Take the solution and blend it up in a blender for a few minutes.

9) OPTIONAL: vacuum filter the solution through a funnel with cotton balls (may not be necessary at all)

10) Draw up 10 mL in a long pipette and put it front of a four foot long blacklight. Observe the glow color.

11) Drop a few drops from the pipette onto dry white cotton. Observe the glow color.

12) The liquid should fluoresce bright bluish/white.

13) If the liquid glows yellowish/green or not at all there could be contaminants in the water (non-polars) or you might have inactive or weak seeds.

14) Keep the jar in the fridge and out of light when not in use. Do not expose the entire jar to the blacklight--UV light, bright light, heat, oxygen & chlorine decomposes ergolines. However, now that they are tartaric or citrate (lemon juice) salted slightly, they may not decompose as fast.

Should still be sampled hypothetically the same day or within a few days as it does appear to loose potency quickly.

[Swimster]

Ok this one is killing me as well as other people. A simple Cwe, or Polar/Non-Polar? Some people think the polar/n-p method is alot cleaner and "un-nausiating", but some people believe it's too much work. Epescially, seeing is how one could perform a simple "CWE". Here's a good quote in favor of "CWE" method.

"The cold water extraction is the better way to go! Remember, water is a highly polar compound. It will only dissolve the desireable polar stuff in the seeds. It will not dissolve the unwanted stuff. So if you soak the seed mush in a fair amount of cold, distilled water (a full glass is what I usually use), the water will dissolve the alkaloids in the seeds, while leaving behind the nasty stuff. It is unnecessary to use the nonpolar solvent because the water will not pick up that nonpolar stuff anyway. That nasty stuff will just stay put in the seed mush."

So hmm.., i agree, whats the use of getting rid of the bad stuff at all, why not just pull the good stuff, and not worry at all about the bad junk?

Personally swim's faviorite method would be to put ground seed in a tea-bag, throw into cup of Ice-cold water for some time and viola!

Another sugestion would be to use ethanol instead of water.

Anyway, i would like to hear a dispute on this thread.

What do you vote for: CWE, or Polar style?

[fnord]

if its quick and easy your looking for i wouild suggest just the cwe,but if you want to fully extract all teh fun stuff do a acid/base.CWE dosent get everything,not even close

[Swimster]

Originally Posted by fnord

if its quick and easy your looking for i wouild suggest just the cwe,but if you want to fully extract all teh fun stuff do a acid/base.CWE dosent get everything,not even close

Oh i know the ups ad down to these both. Im just comparing the methods.
Such as when you said, "CWE dosent get everything,not even close", this is oneof the things im looking for answer to. Why would this be?

swims' actually not looking for simpcity, but rather affectability.