Opinions - Mom thinks LSD is Rat poison - how to convince her?

[Buddah]

Hey, swims mother thinks all acid is stricnine (sp?) aka rat poisin. I keep trying to tell her that it isnt right but no matter what she thinks she is right. Is there a way to explain to her that it isnt true.

PLEASE type and explination that she can read, that says acid is acid and one time long ago some people where TRYING to pass it off as acid but it isnt like that anymore

[allyourbase]

strychnine is too caustic to be put in solution with LSD. also, why would dealers want to poison their customers? this whole "rat poison" in the lsd bit is an old myth, propegated by ring wing control freaks who dont want you to take a drug that might make you *gasp* dance, or worse, have an original thought and vote them out of office.

[brighteyes88]

Originally Posted by allyourbase

this whole "rat poison" in the lsd bit is an old myth, propegated by ring wing control freaks who dont want you to take a drug that might make you *gasp* dance, or worse, have an original thought and vote them out of office.

swim saw a documentery about lsd, and ken kesey, the author of ''one flew over the cuckoos nest'' put it beautifully:
"its like theres a door, and the powers that be are afraid to go through the door, so they pay students to go through. then the students come out of the room with this surprised expression. and so they try to lock the door so that anyone braver than them cant go through"
this is referring to the lsd trials in which students were paid to try lsd, while they watched and interviewed them.

swim thinks it will be impossible to convince your mom, hes tried(with his mom, of course). theres a whole world thats been brainwashed by horror stories of lsd, and this is to make sure they tell their children. this is quite effective, as most children generally believe their parents, and adopt those thoughts for themselves. theres remarkably few free thinkers out there, and its not even their fault. if you tell someone something over and over again, theyll start to believe it. some people who arent us just didnt listen

[Abrad]

You could try showing her the following erowid articles, but SWIM has found that if people want to believe crap like this there is little one can do to convince them otherwise.

MYTH ORIGINS
Looking into the origin of the strychnine rumor, some slim basis for it can be found. One report in the professional literature was by Sid Schnoll (Schnoll, SH & Vogel, WH (1971) New Engl J Med 284(14):791) who reported a positive thin-layer chromatography (TLC) result in a sample of LSD. TLC is a screening test only and not suited for definite identification. When Sid was contacted he said that, to the best of his recollection, the sample had only a trace of strychnine and that it was never confirmed with another method.

The other report of note comes from the popular press: Albert Hofmann's LSD: My problem child. In the book, Albert reported that strychnine had been sold as LSD powder, two people had ingested it and one had died. When contacted, Albert could not provide details of how he analyzed the sample presented to him or any information on the clinical course of these two people, but said that this event had occured in 1970 and that no toxicologic analyses had been performed on any clinical specimens. It should be noted that in this case, LSD was not involved. LSD was not adulterated with strychnine, but rather strychnine was represented as being LSD.

The first published reports of strychnine contaminated LSD predate 1970 and have of course persisted, even being enshrined in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (4th ed.), despite the lack of any conclusive evidence.

From: lamontg@u.washington.edu
Subject: RUN FOR YOUR LIVES ITS STRYCHNINE!
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Date: 8 Apr, 1993

On the issue of strychnine in LSD:

The following text was written by Alexander T. Shulgin in response to the overwhelming misconception that strychnine is commonly found in street samples of LSD:

"The observation of strychnine as being present in any street drug, as a by-product, or a contaminant, or an impurity has never been documented. It is a natural plant product, as are the ergots which are used in the synthesis of LSD. But they come from totally unrelated plants; there has never been a report of strychnine and an ergot alkaloid co-existing in a single species. So if the two materials are together in a drug sample, it could only be by the hand of man. I have personally looked a large number of illicit street offerings and have never detected the presence of strychnine. The few times that I have indeed found it present, have been in legal exhibits where it usually occurred in admixture with brucine (also from the plant Strychnos nux-vomica) in criminal cases involving attempted or successful poisoning.

The same argument applies to the myth that occasionally surfaces, that strychnine occurs in the white tufts of peyote. This is equally fraudulent -- it has never been reported in that cactus or any other cactus."

Furthermore, it should probably be spelled out that strychnine is not needed to bond LSD to blotter paper, nor is strychnine a breakdown product of LSD. these are probably the two most commonly repeated gross misconceptions.

The source of the "strychnine is commonly found in LSD" myth may be somewhat grounded in truth. For example, in "LSD: My Problem Child" Albert Hofmann cites a case in the late sixties of Strychnine being found in an "LSD" sample that was a white powder. However, what is commonly claimed is that strychnine is found in a significant percentage of LSD, specifically blotter LSD, which is *not* true. Shulgin's note that he has analyzed many samples of LSD and never found strychnine is backed up by published analyses done by PharmChem and the LA County Street Drug Analysis program, which likewise never found any strychnine.

This is intuitively backed up by the fact that a 5mm x 5mm "standard" square of blotter LSD only weights about 2mg and if the paper itself was made completely out of pure strychnine it is still on the very low end of Strychnine's threshold of activity.

Strychnine is not the cause of tracers, cramps, nausea, or amphetamine-like LSD-effects. Its possible that poorly synthesized LSD might have other ergot derivatives in it, which might contribute to the harsh body load that some get on taking LSD. Also, the very close chemical relatives 1-Methyl-LSD and 1-Acetyl-LSD (which break down into LSD in aqueous solution) might be present in some street samples and might contribute to the harsh body load. (Petter Stafford has claimed in his _Psychedelics Encyclopedia_ that 1-Acetyl-LSD is supposedly "smoother" than d-LSD -- thus "strychnine laced acid" may acutally be pure d-LSD, while "pure lsd" may be 1-Acetyl-LSD or some substitute). And the chemicals iso-LSD and lumi-LSD which are breakdown products of LSD might contribute to the body loading on some trips, particularly via a hypothetical synergistic effect. Given this plethora of possible chemicals in street "LSD", its not needed to look to a chemical which has hardly ever been found in analyzed samples to explain variations in the strength and "cleanliness" of street acid.

Its also possible that LSD itself simply causes adverse physical effects, particularly muscle cramping, in persons suceptible to it. The reported side effects of LSD (the nausea and apparent CNS stimulant effects) are commonly reported side effects of seritonergic drugs such as fluoxetine (Prozac) and buspirone (Buspar), and also are commonly reported (and typically more severe) with other psychedelics like Mescaline.

Or its quite likely that the "strychnine" reactions to LSD are entirely psychosomatic. Both Leary ("The Psychedelic Experience") and Lilly ("Programming and Metaprogramming...", "Center of the Cyclone") have each observed this reaction in people who cannot handle the surge of emotion associated with a trip.

Further advice would be to avoid methylxanthines (caffiene, theophylline in tea, etc) prior to dosing. Some have noted a possible synergistic effect between them and LSD causing, or contributing, to a harsh body load during a trip. And prior use of dramamine may alleviate the nausea sometimes associated with LSD, and other psychedelic drugs (although it may also effect the quality of the trip -- Shulgin has noted in PiHKAL that he shuns the use of anti-nauseants in order to experience the effects of the psychedelic, both good and bad, with no possible interference).

In summary, it can't be said that we know specifically why sometimes acid feels "cleaner" than other times. However, based on the availability of plausible explanations, and the evidence of drug analysis, and general implausiblity of the whole strychnine concept, we can conclude that it isn't due to any concentration of strychnine. Also, while it can't completely be ruled out, the presence of strychnine in LSD is so minimal that the majority of LSD users will never once come across it.


From: Colonel Mode
Subject: There is no strychnine. None, none, none.
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Date: 6 Mar 1992

To my knowledge, the only plants that contain strychnine are the Asian tree, Strychnos nux-vomica, and perhaps a few close relatives in the genus Strychnos. This is not to say that there are definitely no plants outside of the genus Strychnos that contain strychnine, but all of the posts to this newsgroup that claim strychnine is found in "X" that I have read have been false.

Strychnine is not found in Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds, peyote, LSD, discount luncheon meats, Chilean grapes, or even modern-day rat poisons.

The most likely place to find strychnine is in myths posted to alt.drugs based on hearsay and other unreliable sources.

Read "The Botany and Chemistry of the Hallucinogens", by Richard Evans Shultes and Albert Hofmann. They are respected scientists who know what they are talking about. Don't take my word for it. Certainly don't take the word of authors of flakey pamphlets or usenet randoms who spout myths heard from their friends.


From: George Root
Subject: Re: What are the different kinds of LSD?
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994

From 1972 to 1977 i was Director of Florida's anonymous street drug testing program (Clearwater Free Clinic/Drug Analysis Project) and later was a research associate with UpFront, Inc. in Miami (1978 & 79). During this period of time i was directly familiar with the results from our analytical labs and those operating in California, Oregon and Detroit. I recall NO instances of samples of (actual) LSD being combined with strychnine, brucine or amphetamines and derivitives of amphetamine. (Which is not to say that there were no instances of people intentionally co-dosing with other drugs such as amphetamine; seems to me there were some clinical experiments where such a combination was tested and i recall people telling me about instances when they had done the same.)

Of course, there were samples that were out-and-out misrepresentations. Generally these were easily distinguished from legitamate LSD by such signs as dosage quantity and form. Strychnine, brucine and amphetamine are typically active at dosage levels in the milligram ranges which are considerably higher than that of LSD. I also recall that there was a time when "white crosses" were analyzed to be brucine rather than amphetamine.

In the early 70's the typical dosage range of LSD on the street was from ~100 ug to ~300 ug. From the late 70's to the present (far as i know) the typical dosase is ~40 ug to ~100 ug (with some exceptions, the "Bay Area" blotters are typically in higher dose ranges than that of "Southern Cal.")

It may well be, from what folks tell me, that typical dose ranges have crept up again from the typical lows of the 80's. It has been many years since i have been directly involved with qualitative/quantitative analysis programs.

The physiological signs which people attribute to being due to "bad acid" or to stychinine, amphetamine and the like seem to show up in the literature for clinical experimentation with LSD. So, it is likely that to some extent these effects are potentially found in association with LSD itself. Although, based on field work and other experience i am inclined to think that factors such as dietary, endocrine rythems & diurnal cycles, as well as set & setting influence the extent to which undesirable effects may exhibit with various entheogens. The Yachajruna (Quijos, Ecuador) who was my informant was very particular about diet and lunar phase when using (enetama) Banisteriopsis sp. Many traditional users of entheogens (i.e., shaman's as categorized in anthropology) insist on "purification(s)" being performed before utilization of an entheogen.

Further, there are possibly effects which might be attributed to the agent (LSD) such as by-products of synthesis and degradation products. It seems reasonable that this would increase the likelyhood of undesirable effects... yet even this is not real clear as there is so much variation between individuals and individual trips. I have observed people who had signs of discomfort yet reported no subjective discomfort and vice-versa.

All exogenous agents seem to produce varying degrees of desirable/undesirable effects.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Got there before me: Well done!

[zera]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_ur...nds#Strychnine

[Psych0naut]

From the rules:

• Use descriptive Topic Subject. This will help others find what they want to read. Topics with bad Topic subjects may be deleted! - there's nothing more annoying than looking at all those stupid "A stupid question" subject lines. I mean, I'm damn lazy, but how hard is it to type "A stupid question about (insert something here)"? As a rule of thumb, most thread titles should include the full name of the drug discussed.

A rule many tend to forget will cause a mass of warnings soon...

Instead of acid please use LSD next time. When using the search engine for a certain acid, one would be directed to this thread, while searching for info on LSD, one wouldn't find this thread, Thanks!

[Nagognog2]

Thread title changed. Spelling corrected.

[Buddah]

Thanks man, sorry about that

[mr. strawberry]

i got into a similar thing with my step dad about 12 years ago. he was telling me that pot was addictive and i told him it wasnt we went to the library and made a bet. in 1 hour wed return to our table and hed try to "prove" that it was and i had to prove it wasnt after an hour he came back with about 10 books and started showing me where it talked about how its bad for your health (yeah inhailing smoke probably isnt great in the long run if you do it to much) but nothing showed that it was physicly addictive i had several books that said it wasnt. i won 20 dollars and geuss what i did with it. hahaha
anyway good luck. in the age of the internet it should take all of about 3 seconds to correct your mom. maybe someone who isnt you may get his mom to trip with him after its all said and done.

[Nagognog2]

Just don't think ALL people the age of your mom believe that crap. My mother was challanged to prove LSD was dangerous by taking it. She did. And never said a bad thing about it again. Now I'm older than your mom is - most likely.

Don't turn into an agist. You'll end up trapped! LOL!

[brighteyes88]

not at all, the most experienced drug user swim knows is the mother of one of swims friends.
but, the lsd experience first hand is not always a cure for misinformation. swims moms first trip was a baddie.
she doesnt believe its rat-poison, but she does believe its extremely dangerous.

also, a question, getting back to the main topic, but a little different: i read recently that lsd is actually remarkably non-toxic and even less toxic than caffeine...
this sounds a little bogus to me, but if anyone could clear it up?

[chAos]

Originally Posted by brighteyes88

also, a question, getting back to the main topic, but a little different: i read recently that lsd is actually remarkably non-toxic and even less toxic than caffeine...
this sounds a little bogus to me, but if anyone could clear it up?

LSD is remarkably non-toxic because the amount you would need to kill yourself with it is extremely high compared to what you would take to havea strong trip. (Erowid mentions 12mg as a lethal dose and 0.1mg as a standard dose, although to my knowledge no-one ever died from an lsd overdose)

[brighteyes88]

Originally Posted by chAos

LSD is remarkably non-toxic because the amount you would need to kill yourself with it is extremely high compared to what you would take to havea strong trip. (Erowid mentions 12mg as a lethal dose and 0.1mg as a standard dose, although to my knowledge no-one ever died from an lsd overdose)

thanks, i wasnt worried for my health, just needed ammo for my anti-bullshit cannon

[dirk]

Mom thinks LSD is Rat poison - how to convince her?

(the answer is in the question)

buy a rat, then feed it LSD in front of her.

the LD50 (IV) for rats is around 16 mg/kg,
so one tab and a sizeable rat should be OK.

[Buddah]

Well she is convinced now. THanks all who helped, mods u can close/sticky/whatever this thread