Drug info - Kanna (sceletium tortuosum) as a replacement for SSRI's?

[nagual]

Kanna, aka. Sceletium Tortuosum is an SSRI (wiki says more selective than imiprimine) used/traded in Africa for its anti-depressant/anti-anxiety/anti-hunger effects and I'm wondering if any of you self-medicate with this instead of prescribed SSRIs. Has anyone had withdrawel problems or combination problems using Kanna? SWIM has been using it whilst getting through a tough patch finding it a great help and prefers the listed side-effects to St John's Wort. But SWIM worries about withdrawal. A moderate 50mg sprinkle in a mug of tea first thing in the morning gets SWIM comfortably through a potentially anxious day and as long as this is only repeated once or twice a week, no unpleasant effects have been noticed.

Daily use made SWIM twitchy and led to mild insomnia; is this something familiar to people on other SSRIs?

[Lehendakari]

SWIM tried it a while ago after getting off seroxat and found effects to be very mild and not very different from placebo. He used it daily 350 mg encapsulated and stopped cold turkey with no problems whatsoever.

In an hour or so after ingestion he felt some sort of euphoria and dishinibition but this stopped pretty soon.

SWIM would like to give this succulent another try cause he thinks he wasn't takinf the right thing. I'm glad to hear it works for SWIY.

[Mona Lisa]

Have read how others have often found an increased sensitivity develops, ie. a reversed tolerance if kanna is taken over about a three week period each day. Making it in tea, capsules, or snorting it are all ways to take it according to forum reports. This could make sense in that it is an SSRI.

[Nagognog2]

"Kanna, aka. Sceletium Tortuosum is an SSRI (wiki says more selective than imiprimine)"

Another reason I despise Wiki. Imipramine (Tofranil®, 5-[3-( Dimethylamino)propyl]-10,11- ihydro-5H-dibenz [b,1-azepine] Monohydrochloride.) is related to benzodiazepines. It is NOT a SSRI.

Reputation Comments on this post:

The information in this post is simply false. Imipramine is a tricyclic antidepressant which also produces serotonin reu...

[nagual]

Ha! Did you correct the wiki article then? If you don't, then I will. The article on Imipramine claims that it "inhibits the reuptake of serotonin more so than most secondary amine tricyclics, meaning that it blocks the reuptake of neurotransmitters serotonin and noradrenaline almost equally."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imipramine

[geophagus]

SWIM enjoys kanna very much, but has found that it can be expensive. Even though it's expensive, it is a wonderful herb that is very under-rated in SWIM's opinion.

SWIM has enjoyed a powdered 5:1 extract, and has also enjoyed an alcohol tincture both from the same vendor.

SWIM prefers the tincture mixed with an once or two of Sprite or 7up, and then SWIM likes to let the mixture absorb sublingually. The effects are not as pronounced compared to insulfating the powdered extract, but the effects are very nice and very noticable within a couple of minutes. SWIM finds the liquid to be much more therapuetic than insulfating the powder.

SWIM would like to know if anyone has ever made their own extract with kanna?

[Lehendakari]

Originally Posted by geophagus

SWIM enjoys kanna very much, The effects are not as pronounced compared to insulfating the powdered extract, but the effects are very nice and very noticable within a couple of minutes. SWIM finds the liquid to be much more therapuetic than insulfating the powder.

So what are the effects SWIM experiences? Duration? Dose?........

[geophagus]

The effects have always included mild stimulation, for about 7 to 10 minutes, followed by a sedation with pronounced muscle relaxation that lingers for well over 1.5 hours. SWIM has used both the kanna powdered extract, and the kanna tincture.

SWIM's dosage for the kanna tincture has been to take 5 eyedroppers at a time of the tincture mixed with Sprite or 7up prior to taking it sublingually, and for the powdered extract SWIM would insulfate 1 line of the powder. SWIM has found that insulfating the powdered kana is very hard on SWIM's nasal cavity. SWIM has also tried smoking the powdered extract in a bowl, or to top a bowl of cannabis, but SWIM has only experienced mild effects from smoking the kanna.

[RxPosterChild]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

"Kanna, aka. Sceletium Tortuosum is an SSRI (wiki says more selective than imiprimine)"

Another reason I despise Wiki. Imipramine (Tofranil®, 5-[3-( Dimethylamino)propyl]-10,11- ihydro-5H-dibenz [b,1-azepine] Monohydrochloride.) is related to benzodiazepines. It is NOT a SSRI.

Thank you for this. You answered SWIM's question before he even asked. But SWIM will check just to be sure.

If kanna is related to benzo's rather than SSRI's, SWIM should have no SSRI related interactions if SWIM is currently taking an SSRI (Celexa)?

SWIM appreciates the help!

[helikophis]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

"Kanna, aka. Sceletium Tortuosum is an SSRI (wiki says more selective than imiprimine)"

Another reason I despise Wiki. Imipramine (Tofranil®, 5-[3-( Dimethylamino)propyl]-10,11- ihydro-5H-dibenz [b,1-azepine] Monohydrochloride.) is related to benzodiazepines. It is NOT a SSRI.

Well right. . . it is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor, but not a selective one. As far as I can tell the wikipedia article was perfectly accurate. It didn't claim that it was an SSRI, only that it is an SRI (true), and that kanna is more selective than it (also true). But perhaps I am missing something.

Also, saying that imipramine is related to benzodiazepines is a little misleading, in that as far as I can tell, it is structurally related, but the neurochemical and psychiatric effects are quite different.

[Ally420]

Originally Posted by helikophis

Well right. . . it is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor, but not a selective one. As far as I can tell the wikipedia article was perfectly accurate. It didn't claim that it was an SSRI, only that it is an SRI (true), and that kanna is more selective than it (also true). But perhaps I am missing something.

Also, saying that imipramine is related to benzodiazepines is a little misleading, in that as far as I can tell, it is structurally related, but the neurochemical and psychiatric effects are quite different.

I was going to post the same thing but you beat me to the punch.

[paulyp80]

Swim tried sceletium in a spray form had an amazing effect only a few squirts and he was in a happy state really amazing feeling.

Others had the same effect from sceletium, how many people use this stuff

[Lehendakari]

Originally Posted by paulyp80

Swim tried sceletium in a spray form had an amazing effect only a few squirts and he was in a happy state really amazing feeling.

Others had the same effect from sceletium, how many people use this stuff

Which route did SWIY use? Sublingual? Nasal?

What is the dosage per pump??

What is SWIY weight? Gender?

Can elaborate the experience? Onset, peak, cronology of effects?

Thanks.

[Benjimang]

SWIM has a bit of experience with Kanna. He has ordered 4g of Sceletium Emarcidum twice, and 2g of Sceletium Tortuosum once. Swim finds that a pinch of either types of Kanna, placed under the tongue or between gums and cheeks, then held for 5-10 mins is a great pre-curser to a night on mid-strength beers or straight scotch whiskey. Not buzzed or high or anything, just VERY sociable. SWIM is normally very sociable anyway, but still notices the effect. This indicates to him that Kanna is powerful enough to work on anyone, not just those with depressive qualities.

Swim also rolls a spliff or two of damiana with a sprinkle of kanna in each one to smoke during the drinking session. Swim is a non smoker of cigarettes.

Swim has developed a smoking mix that has, well, mixed results:

1 part cannabis
1 part damiana
1 part tobacco

Finely chop the three herbs above, then sprinkle a thin layer of kanna over the top, and mix in. This has had two different effects:

1. High. SWIM has smoked cannabis everyday for a year now and no longer gets 'high', but 'stoned'. The Kanna seems to bring back the highness... kind of like a clear, slightly energised, strong stoned.

2. Same as above but effects wear off very quickly. Perhaps this mix did not contain enough cannabis. SWIM doesn't own scales so does not weigh herbs before mixing. This lack of uniformity may be the cause of the differing experiences.

[paulyp80]

Swim used a spray form from a supplier in south africa has anyone come across a similar format

[kookoo4coca]

SWIM has looked all over trying to find the method to extract alkaloids from powdered Kanna 5:1. SWIM received his pack today and insuffalated approximately 10mgs. Sneezed up a storm and pulled brown material out of his nose. Wasn't too bad, but didn't like the mud drip.

SWIM did like the light feeling he got after about 20 mins. He didn't realize when, all of a sudden he wasn't upset that the house didn't come through becasue some facist mtg broker decided he didn't need to use his VA Loan to get his fanmily a house, so they lost it. Up until yesterday, SWIM was ranting and raving about what a shithead this guy was. Now he feels good, and just smoked a bowl of mj. Feeling real nice right about now.

SWIM agrees with geophagus about it being hard on the nasal cavities, and is too inexperienced to have a go at it on his own, so was hoping there was a dummy, dummy dummy, basic course on extracting alkaloids from kanna , as SWIM is mathematically/chemically challenged!

Hopefully someone will share their knowledge. I do apologize if I'm bringing up something that has been defined, but I couldn't find it. You can lv a msg or pm me if you don't want to say it here. thanx in advance.

[psyche]

Kanna is in swim's shopping list. Or has been for three years now. It seemed like underrated product which just might work contrary to other woodoo-wild-dagga-legal-high -type nonsense herbs. If there is no separate experience reports thread, I would like to hear more of them in this thread, since SWIM doesn't have any extra money atm to waste on new products that MAY work.

[genaro]

swim just acquired some sceletium tortuosum leaves, very finely powdered (flour consistency)

Nasal use: swim would like to know how much (how many grams) of the powder he should snort for strong effects?

Swim is also curious about oral use: how many grams orally for strong effects?

So if anyone has some personal experience with this stuff and could tell swim about dosages...

[Thirdedge]

Originally Posted by genaro

swim just acquired some sceletium tortuosum leaves, very finely powdered (flour consistency)

Nasal use: swim would like to know how much (how many grams) of the powder he should snort for strong effects?

Swim is also curious about oral use: how many grams orally for strong effects?

So if anyone has some personal experience with this stuff and could tell swim about dosages...

Nasal use: Start with 20mg. Swim finds snorting this amount twice a day for a week gives good effects. More may give more instant results but its hard on the nose. Swim snorts, sits back for 30mins then blows his nose.

Oral: Swim tried 1 gram at a time but found snorting more effective. He chewed two pieces of gum before adding Kanna.

Smoking: 20mg on top of a cone of weed alters the effects of the weed, easing paranoia and adding some euphoria. Worth a try for sure.

Reputation Comments on this post:

might be wort a try

[Frond]

So, Kanna. Sir Tokesalot was naturally curious, and would you know it, but there it was. Sitting by its lonesome, waiting to be consumed.

He has tried it several times, with little effect. Smoked, it produced the lightest of mellow relaxations, but it could have easily been placebo. Put in a tea, it produced a very light stoning feeling that tended to inhibit his ability to focus, but one again it was light enough to write off as placebo. It should be noted that the dosage was about 200-250mg, and this was dried and powdered plant material, not an extract.

Fast forward some units of time. Sir Tokesalot is fresh out of the lighter stuff, and doesn't feel like sending his mind off to another dimension just for kicks. Unfortunately, all he has is Kanna, so he went at it again, with the zealous, zestful abandon that characterizes a noble warrior of his spirit (and it should be said, there were also some spirits involved!).

First, he put about 250mg on top of some calea leaves in a pipe, and proceeded to live up to his name. It didn't burn too well, and seemed to release a lot of moisture. Still, he toked and toked, until he felt that same lightest of buzzes, and then his pipe got clogged, and he had to stop. Most of the powder though was all gone. The buzz was gone too in about 10 minutes, if it was even there in the first place. Sir Tokesalot doesn't consider subtle, possibly placebo-level buzzes as a noticeable effect. They're called +/- for a reason, you know!

Then, he decided to smoke some more (about 200mg), this time rolled up in a joint. Well, very fine powder rarely smokes well from a joint - but when a knight is lacking a proper smoking utensil, what is he to do? Unless, of course, he fancies a trip to the supermarket for some light bulbs.

The experiment worked as predicted - none too well, the joint didn't pull enough, and most of the powder ended up on the ground. He once again felt the lightest of buzzes, which pretty much wore off pretty quickly.

Determined not to give up, he once again made his powder into a tea (300mg or so). I should note here that Sir Tokesalot has sinus problems (must be all those mace blows to the head), and doesn't really fancy blowing stuff. It's hard to breathe in a metal helmet after all! He wants to preserve what's left of his sinuses, so snorting the stuff was out. Snorting plant matter, which doesn't all absorb through the mucus membranes (thankfully) is hardly a good idea even if your knights are healthy. Which, if they keep doing this, they won't be for long.

So, tea. It tasted pretty good actually, like green tea but with finely powdered gunk floating inside. And some sand, which grated against his teeth and irritated his throat (and other innards besides). While he was drinking it, he was surprised to note a weak, but definitely noticeable this time, residual buzz. It was no longer a +/- but a +1 for sure. He was relaxed, detached, somewhat unable to focus, but not especially worried about it. He also wasn't enjoying it that much - he was just sort of there, content and calm but not really happy. As he finished his tea, the effects grew and leveled off at a noticeable +1. Milder than cannabis, milder than a six-pack, but enough to make out the quality of the buzz.

He went about his business, then came back home and decided to relax. But, strangely enough, no matter what he did, he could find little contentment from it - and found it hard to care. It was as if all of his emotions were gone, except for maybe a mild amusement that didn't really seem funny or entertaining... it just, sort of, was.

This persisted for the rest of the night. Emotional connection didn't really exist with anything. Music was appreciated on a cerebral level but he wasn't involved with it or emotionally engaged in any way. And while he was relaxed, he wasn't really able to focus.

The next morning he woke up, stretched, and thought "Ahhh... it's nice to have your emotions back!" And then went about his business.

So, not so great an experience, and not so good as a recreational drug, right? Well, not so fast. Recreational it isn't, but at the time, Sir Tokesalot was in a wretched mood, right before he did the Kanna. And, believe it or not, that emotionless, zombie-like state was a definite improvement. He was able to get stuff done, and while he didn't enjoy it he didn't much care. He wasn't depressed or angry or anything like that, which he definitely was before he took the Kanna.

So, it seems like a useful little plant. If "no emotions at all" is better than what SWIY is feeling right now, then it can be very useful to get out of a tight spot. Our brave knight will definitely keep it on hand when he has to deal with nasty inner turmoil - or rather, not deal with it, but put it off. And, of course, when he's out of Kratom.

Recreational potential, though, is nil. It did seem like an SSRI, but let's not jump to conclusions.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thx for sharing swiy experiences.

[paulyp80]

swim has tried an extract of kanna had a very calming effect when taken with distilled water.

[fractalhaze]

SWIM has tried a Pure Kanna Alkaloids (95% Pure Mesembrine and related alkaloids) product that is phenomenal - tiny bump snorted is great.

[paddy]

SWIM's dog has tried Kanna before and found it to be pretty enjoyable. However, yesterday the Dog took a pinch (SWIM's dog isn't too great with remembering actual measurements...he is a dog after all) and found that anxiety and irritibility increased to mild levels.

Anyone else experienced this?

[humdroid]

Y likes Kanna.
It can only be taken if you are not taking other stuff though.
A quick search will show.

Y thought before, kanna may have increased his depression/anxiety, but he was coming down off amphetamines most of the time, so he cannot say for sure if the kanna added to, or even reduced the depression/anxiety, and that the comedown caused it.

humdroid added 0 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...

Y has started to take several sublingual pinches of kanna a day.

[baron samedi]

So if it's an SSRI would taking it on top of 50mg Paroxetine be a waste of time, or potentially dangerous? SWIM would like to experiment further with it, as it seems to be one ethno that actually works in a lot of people.
SWIM smoked it in a bong one night and it put him to sleep, with strange dreams involving Scandinavian trolls.