Best order to try piperazines (TFMPP, MCPP, MEOPP, and PFPPP)???

[stjbm06]

SWIM recently got in the mail a sampler pack of TFMPP, MCPP, MEOPP, and PFPP. and swim's been dying to try all of them for the past 2 years, to hopefully come reasonably close to an MDMA/psychedelic experience (although he has NEVER taken X). swim is not EXPECTING this type of exp, only HOPING, and he has done a MASSIVE amount of trip-report reading and research...

swim has heard both EXTREME good and bad about all of the above substances, and he wants to go about in experimentation in a logical order that doesn't turn him off to any of the piperazine cousins...

however, now that he actually has all of these substances in from of him, he is kinda overwhelmed. If SWIY has experience with a few of these, What order would SWIY suggest in taking these, and at what levels INITIALLY to test one's body's physiological response to all of the above?? Recall that swim has TFMPP, MCPP, MEOPP, and PFPPP (the "sunrise" variety), and BZP, as fantastic as it sounds, was out of the question due to its illegality in the USA.

swim is heavily experienced in ethnobotanicals, DXM, and most stimulants.

thanks in advance!!! it is GREATLY appreciated!!!

peace and love

[Thirdedge]

These are basically toxic chemicals that in small doses may provide swiy with some mildly psychedelic stimulation, but are generally used in combination with bzp, eg: 100 - 200mg bzp is often cut with very small amounts of the above mentioned RC,s to add some psychedelic or euphoric effects.
The downside to this is that these substances generally also add negative bodyload and nasty hangover effects as well, which can be extreme in certain individuals.

Mcpp can provide an somewhat empathogenic experience used alone without bzp in some people, however it is thought to induce migrane in at least 10% of users. If you suffer from migrains avoid this one.

Pfpp can be taken by itself in 20 - 40mg for a monged out mildly trippy feeling. Higher dosage will increase headache and nausea far more than it will the psychedelic effects.

meopp can be used alone to induce nausea and body rushes, with mild but boring perceptual changes, eg: some colours may standout somewhat. Generally used to attempt to add body rushes to the piperazine cocktail attempt to mimic mdma.

tfmpp seems to be best mixed with bzp, swim has not tried alone.

Sorry to sound so negative, swiy may well be one of the few who do enjoy piperazine cocktails (the vendors sure seem to have some great experiences on them) but swim has tried again and again and found these chemicals to be not worth the toxic side effects.
BZP can be quite enjoyable, and many enjoy bzp cut with small amounts of these other piperazines, but swim is yet to meet anyone who has used these chemicals alone more than once or twice.

Since BZP is illegal in the US I recomend purchasing a strong OTC stimulant eg: AMP (take 4 capsules), and adding very small dosages(less than half what most trip reports suggest) of these Piperazines (not all at once of course) to this to add some extra euphoria / psychedelic or empathogenic effects hopefully without too much side effects. But keep the dosage LOW is the key.

Some ginger 15mins before consumption may help with nausea and lots of H2O or juice to help with hydration.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good factual (and critical) information on the various recreational piperazines

[stjbm06]

Thanks a lot thirdedge, you ROCK!

Swim's NEVER gotten migraines in his life, and is fairly used to a wide variety of psychedelics, so he's not too worried about headaches/nausea... I know that the Pipz are used to kill intestinal worms and such; and that TFMPP was classified in the strongest drug classification in the US and then reversed (the ONLY drug to have EVER followed this path); and that the super-strict US govt passed over the Pipz family with not a speck of legislation (other than criminalizing the super fun BZP) persuades SWIM to believe that this whole Piperazine family cannot be too toxic or dangerous, even in fairly high dosages. Notwithstanding the whole facts, of course, that most ppl don't like these drugs, and that nausea and headaches and their usage with alcohol all seriously discourages their abuse, of course Hey, after all, if these Pipz work well, imagine how much $$ ppl will save on alcohol while looking for a way to get f**ked up and party!!

Are there any other common side effects or Toxicity reports/studies on the above mentioned piperazines (preferably in humans, not rats) that SWIM would benefit from reading?

How does everyone feel about long-term toxicity of these substances with semi-occasional use (like a reasonable dose every 2-3 weeks)?

Swim does have AMP on hand, and has liked its effects so far. He has not done more than 2 pills at a time though (but is very used to all stimulants even in high dosages)... Would swiy still suggest trying AMP at 4 pills with each and every piperazine separately? How long of a break should swim give in between experiments with each Pip so that (cross)tolerance does not develop??

A possible legal euphoriant/psychedelic that doesn't require extraction and lots of additional preparation is highly interesting to SWIM. Hence his diving into the (hopefully) wonderful world of Pipz!!



Choose life... modified.

-peace

[Thirdedge]

I would strongly discourage using the US drug classification system as a means of evaluating how toxic or dangerous a substance is or isn,t.
The reason for TFMPP,s removal from scedule 1 probably has more to do with the fact that it is not very fun or insightfull and hence not subject to abuse.
These Piperazines are indeed a great deal more toxic than many sceduled but quite safe substances such as weed, lsd or shrooms. They are just too new to have caused many reported health problems.
Mcpp has caused health problems in Europe where it has been used in fake XTC tablets (white sharks). Other Piperazines are known to cause seizuers, hypothermia and possibly coma. Death is definetly a possible outcome.

As for tollerance, small hits of BZP can be used every few days without too much tollerance occuring. A big hit of BZP will blow your tollerance for a couple of weeks, but Swim is not sure for the others. A two week break between any sort of drug experiment is ideal.

Re: Amp, if 2 works well for Swiy then stick with that. If you start by adding a small amount of each Piperazine (one at a time on seperate occasions) you can decide what ones you like and then experiment with combos.

Good luck

[Nagognog2]

Originally Posted by thirdedge

I would strongly discourage using the US drug classification system as a means of evaluating how toxic or dangerous a substance is or isn,t.
The reason for TFMPP,s removal from scedule 1 probably has more to do with the fact that it is not very fun or insightfull and hence not subject to abuse.

This is very true. As a chemist I can tell you this: You can buy enough sodium cyanide to kill off a football stadium full of people (more difficult post-9/11) with a simple excuse IF YOU EVEN ARE ASKED.

Poisons are legal and available. Anything the government thinks might give you a buzz...good luck.

[Rush]

yeah i think TFMPP was kept out of scheduling for low-potential of abuse, for toxic side effects(just like datura)

BTW my idea for the order is:
TFMPP (pure serotonin)
MEOPP(effect brobaly between bzp,tfmpp, and mcpp)
PFPP(most intriguing: some say like tfmpp with enchanced side effects)

i would forget about MCPP, or put it at the bottom of the list: seems to cause migraines(strong headache) in 90% of users and its an anxiety agent

BTW TFMPP is very lovely at low doses...but only at low ones!
makes you feel what serotonin is like,and that's extremely emphatic...that's a fantastic experience...but that's mixed with side effects

[speedy_spicer]

sorry guys but was is in amp pills im from the uk and never heard of them. only otc stimulants you can get is psudoephedrine (or at least only one worth using), so whats in AMP pills

[stjbm06]

Originally Posted by thirdedge

These Piperazines are indeed a great deal more toxic than many sceduled but quite safe substances such as weed, lsd or shrooms. They are just too new to have caused many reported health problems.
Mcpp has caused health problems in Europe where it has been used in fake XTC tablets (white sharks). Other Piperazines are known to cause seizuers, hypothermia and possibly coma. Death is definetly a possible outcome.

Thirdedge, thanks for SWIYs help! SWIM understands your point about the Classification system - it makes more sense that TFMPP was not classified when considering its "non-abuse potential" (as swim just today discovered for himself! See below.) Still, he believes that if it was fairly dangerous, the US Govt would have made some sort of statement or attempt to dismantle/incriminate website owners who SUPPLIED piperazines like TFMPP -- as an extension to its "Operation Web TRYPP" campaign that took out a large portion of RC suppliers sites and imprisoned its owners...

In regards to the above, can SWIY or ANYONE ELSE supply some EVIDENCE such as journal articles (or reputable news stories) to back these statements up? Like the "more toxic than many scheduled substances"? And, specifically the "seizures, hypothermia, coma" statements? What Pipz have done these, and at what levels of dosing?


RUSH: Thanks for the excellent advice!! This sounds like a dynamite plan that SWIM will be pursuing. All SWIM's trip reports will be forthcoming to further science and improve psychonauts decisions the world over!
What dosages of TFMPP does swiy suggest? Does SWIY suggest combining with any kind of stimulants like caffeine/ephedra/AMP?



Nagognog2: While SWIM understands the point about being able to buy poisons, with this statement, "Poisons are legal and available. Anything the government thinks might give you a buzz." Does SWIY seriously think the govt and its various departments (e.g., Food and Drug Administration) does not discourage the use of poisons? Look at any OTC drugs or household cleaning products or even consumer electronics, and the ridiculously detailed "WARNINGS and CONTRAINDICATIONS" labels on all of these (e.g., don't drink bleach/stick fingers into appliances while turned on/etc).
Swim finds it very hard to believe that since the govt concluded detailed studies on TFMPP before it declassified it, it would not even have mentioned to "STAY AWAY FROM THIS POISON/KILLER," as it has done all too often with things like Marijuana and even, gasp, Alcohol during prohibition!




SWIM just tried 50-60 mgs of TFMPP by itself and will be posting a report in the next couple days... There are virtually ZERO trip reports on ingesting this lone substance on the net... Watch this space (or a new topic)!

[Rush]

Originally Posted by stjbm06

Thirdedge, thanks for SWIYs help! SWIM understands your point about the Classification system - it makes more sense that TFMPP was not classified when considering its "non-abuse potential" (as swim just today discovered for himself! See below.) Still, he believes that if it was fairly dangerous, the US Govt would have made some sort of statement or attempt to dismantle/incriminate website owners who SUPPLIED piperazines like TFMPP -- as an extension to its "Operation Web TRYPP" campaign that took out a large portion of RC suppliers sites and imprisoned its owners...

In regards to the above, can SWIY or ANYONE ELSE supply some EVIDENCE such as journal articles (or reputable news stories) to back these statements up? Like the "more toxic than many scheduled substances"? And, specifically the "seizures, hypothermia, coma" statements? What Pipz have done these, and at what levels of dosing?


RUSH: Thanks for the excellent advice!! This sounds like a dynamite plan that SWIM will be pursuing. All SWIM's trip reports will be forthcoming to further science and improve psychonauts decisions the world over!
What dosages of TFMPP does swiy suggest? Does SWIY suggest combining with any kind of stimulants like caffeine/ephedra/AMP?





SWIM just tried 50-60 mgs of TFMPP by itself and will be posting a report in the next couple days... There are virtually ZERO trip reports on ingesting this lone substance on the net... Watch this space (or a new topic)!

BTW for TFMPP is not true that there are no reports, there is SWIM report!
SWIM has extensively explored TFMPP(alone) world and posted an overview in the other thread, if you need a mor in depth report, i could try to post it, just ask if you're interested!

about dose, SWIM liked best between 20-35 mgs, and experienced a reverse tolerance(less dose needed to achive same effects)
combination: this depends of what you want---if you want stimulation, caffeine is highly reccomended, a combination of the two will make SWIY hyperactive.
ephedra i don't know. don't reccomend it, it could raise heart beat and body temperature in a bad way if combined with TFMPP
if you want pure euphoria or pure feelings, TFMPP alone. that's a "pure feelings" drug.That's the unique effect of the drug


About toxic hyperthermia, that actually happened to SWIM!
With TFMPP, extremely hot in the head, the neck and the chest!
that was not ejoyable!
was little noticeable until 35mg.
this doses had that nasty hyperthermia:
50mg of TFMPP
combination of 35mgTFMPP + caffeine high dose and MDPV

and "toxic" adjective, is referred to the side effects directly from TFMPP
not "neurotoxic" or brain damage, as piperazines were used in research for non-neurotoxic serotoninergic drugs compared to MDMA


And SWIM is really curious for PFPP! post report when SWIY tried it!

[Mona Lisa]

google it

[Nicaine]

SWIM understands there's at least two new stimulant RC's on the cusp of arrival (literally, as in a few days away) so he's not sure anyone should bother with the usual non-BZP piperazines. Always interesting to read the results of research, of course, it just doesn't sound like very pleasant research...

[01485202]

Originally Posted by stjbm06

Recall that swim has TFMPP, MCPP, MEOPP, and PFPPP (the "sunrise" variety), and BZP,

Swim has got the same stuff as swiy a few times. bzp is legal in ireland but the pills you can get here in the shops arent nearly as good this stuff.

Swim is only really familiar with Bzp&Tmfpp. I mixed them 50/50 and got positive feedback from everyone. swim didnt really measure it, just took roughly 150mg of each at a time, then more every 2hours or so for the day. bzp on its own isnt really much fun, no euphoria or feeling of well being. happy experimenting!

[krazeguy]

For a very euphoric buzz without a harsh drop try;

200mg BZP
200mg meoPP
40mg pfPP

SWIM found the effects very pleasant with strong euphoric rushes and a good amount of empathy with some strong visual tracers. Quite Trippy. Smooth comedown.

As for toxicity ... Who knows. My Alien has downed over a hundred party pills in the last two years and the only side effects that have been noticed is the inability to eat 3 square meals the next day resulting in weight loss.

[stjbm06]

What does SWIY Recommend as to a good solid dosage of MEOPP, PFPP, and MCPP ALONE?? Before swim begins blending at different dosages, he wants to establish a medium strength baseline to be sure his body doesn't have extensive negative physiological reactions...

So who has tried these substances ALONE, and what would SWIY recommend for a beginner to Piperazines??


please reply with Knowledge & Experience! It is much appreciated!

peace

[krazeguy]

meoPP requires a high dosage to be active. I would recommend 150mg baseline.

mcPP is active at a much lower dosage, and also has quite a high potential to cause headaches. So try 20mg to test for adverse effects. 50mg Baseline.

pfPP is also active at a very low dose. 50mg Baseline.

The above is a medium strength base line.

Low Dose;

meoPP 100mg
mcpp 30mg
pfpp 35mg

Very Strong dose;

meoPP 250mg
mcPP 100mg
pfPP 150mg

Alone;

meoPP is only mildly active. Best mixed with BZP.
mcPP is once again only mildly active on its own and is probably best mixed with meoPP with a ratio of meoPP 3:1 mcPP
pfPP is extremely active on its own.

[01485202]

Originally Posted by stjbm06

So who has tried these substances ALONE, and what would SWIY recommend for a beginner to Piperazines??

wouldnt reccomend doing bzp on its own anyway, not for partying anyway. tmfpp only works properly when added to bzp.

[01485202]

Originally Posted by stjbm06

So who has tried these substances ALONE, and what would SWIY recommend for a beginner to Piperazines??

wouldnt reccomend doing bzp on its own, not for partying anyway. tmfpp only works properly when added to bzp.

[stjbm06]

Wicked! Thanks for the info Krazeguy! This will help swim a lot!

How does this compare to other ppls experiences? Anything very different or disputed?

[stjbm06]

how about any other input? swim has lots of time off and is ready to blow up his fucking mind with many, many piperazine experiments, and NEEDs your help! thanks a million!

[speedy_spicer]

150mg meopp and 50mg mcpp is lovely best piperizine blend for like E effects

pfpp 40mg and meopp 100mg is like high mdma dose makes you very lazy but really happy and euphoric

100mg meopp and 50mg tfmpp trippy stimulant like effect like mda

200mg meopp like amphetamine dose

pfpp 80mg is very trippy like breathing of objects, ripples on walls etc

hope this helps make sure to let me know how it goes

[bob_arctor]

SWIM experimented thoroughly with n-benzylpiperazine several years ago, also mixed with TFMPP. mCPP went down the toilet because of very toxic feelings induced by it. In general SWIM was never really happy even with BZP in this regard. So years fly by and vendors start picking out additional piperazines to flog, and SWIM wants to know about them.

For example, what about 1-methyl-4-benzylpiperazine?

[stjbm06]

So another question that SWIM already asked earlier but want clarification on is this:

It seems as though most of the above answers -- which were EXCELLENT! -- were about great doses ONCE ONE IS FAMILIAR with the pipz.

SWIM needs first of all to know at what levels he should START OUT to TEST the substances and his body's interaction with them... That is, SWIM does NOT want to take TOO LOW a dose that none of the good/bad effects set in, but not be TOO medium or strong to freak himself out on if there are very bad effects [swim knows they may cause nausea/headache/vomiting/etc].

So what would SWIY suggest as starting/testing doses that are low enough to be safe but strong enough that some effects will be felt? I'm thinking low-medium strength doses.

Also, would you people suggest anything like ginger or any other anti-nausea substance?

And would caffeine or AMP or EPHEDRA or other popular STIMULANT BLENDS/HERBS be great to combine as some have suggested? {swim is pretty much a caffeine/herbal stimulant addict}.


thanks and peace!!

[stjbm06]

Good lord... It's been 2.5 months in a forum with millions of members and readers...

Someone please add their experiences/advice/input here to the discussion! Ppl want to know more about Piperazines, dammit!

[Pomzazed]

The firecat would stay away from MCPP as it was once nearly kill him. (check his topic somewhat below this one).

Maybe its a pessimistic since the firecat has accidentally take too much, but in his sense and feeling from that chemical he would stay away from it.

[stjbm06]

What's new to the piperazine takers the world over? Any insight as to swim's questions or ideas above? He believes he has some overlooked points/ideas/comments that other piperazine posts do NOT include...

So help shed some light on these topics above!!! It's summertime -- everyone has time to drop knowledge and experience!!