Inducing intense CEV's from DXM with 5HTP.

[fnord]

anyone else attempted this?i know its bad for your 5ht(thats seratonin right?)levels but grandma feels its totally worth it.

[snapper]

This could trigger serotonin sydrome unpredictably and is gambling a potentially unpleasant to deadly episode. Look up serotonin syndrome to see what SWIM means.
Not a good idea given the risks. DXM gives insane CEVs all by itself. If SWIY wants to combine it with something, grapefruit juice potentiates the trip and makes it more visual and euphoric.

[Abrad]

I can't comment on mixing these with DXM, but seeing as IMO a lot of substances work quite nicely alongside it....

Mixing DXM with serotonergic drugs (eg. tryptamines, phenethylamines) is a bad idea and could trigger serotonin syndrome.

What drugs does SWIY think work nicely with DXM?

[fnord]

More info:

The relative risk and severity of serotonergic side effects and serotonin toxicity, with individual drugs and combinations, is complex. The serotonergic toxicity of SSRIs increases with dose, but even in over-dose it is insufficient to cause fatalities from serotonin syndrome in healthy adults.

if you can find proof of the deadliness id be amazed swim used to eat insane amounts of 5--htp +dxm for days at a time and swims friend even injected 5-htp(why i dont know) while they did suffer from some mental fogginess for a few days they were fine after.

[fnord]

ok so death is possible but i dont think eating a few 5-htp pills is going to do it:Symptoms

Symptom onset is usually rapid, often occurring within minutes after self-poisoning or a change in medication. Serotonin syndrome encompasses a wide range of clinical findings. Mild symptoms may only consist of tachycardia, and shivering, diaphoresis, mydriasis, intermittent tremor or myoclonus, as well as overactive or overresponsive reflexes. Moderate intoxication includes abnormalities such hypertension and hyperthermia; a temperature as high as 40°C (104° F)is common in moderate intoxication. As well as the mild symptoms other features include hyperactive bowel sounds. The overactive reflexes and clonus in moderate cases may be greater in the lower limbs than in the upper limbs. Mental status changes include hypervigilance and agitation.[3]

Severe symptoms include severe hypertension and tachycardia that may lead to shock. Severe case often have agitated delirium as well as muscular rigidity and high muscular tension. Temperature may rise to above 41.1°C (105.98° F) in life-threatening cases. Other abnormalities include metabolic acidosis, rhabdomyolysis, seizures, renal failure, and disseminated intravascular coagulation.[3]

The symptoms are often described as a clinical triad of abnormalities:

* Cognitive effects: mental confusion, hypomania, hallucinations, agitation, headache, coma.
* Autonomic effects: shivering, sweating, fever, hypertension, tachycardia, nausea, diarrhea.
* Somatic effects: myoclonus/clonus (muscle twitching), hyperreflexia, trem

Hernandez AF, Montero MN, Pla A, Villanueva E, et al. Fatal moclobemide overdose or death caused by serotonin syndrome? J Forensic Sci. 1995;40(1):128-130.

[darkglobe]

I still think it's a bad idea.

Serotonin syndrome is pretty random in its appearance.

[fnord]

i think the trade off of a chance of slight depression,(no worse then binging on XTC for 2-3 days) and the visuals grandmas seen is defiantly worth it, grandmas seen slight images of full landscapes,milk crates(weird huh?)and a set of praying hands cut off at the topmost knuckle with the skin rolled back to the middle knuckle with exposed viens /nerves etc. all just by closing her eyes and relaxing in a dark room well + the 5-htp.anyways if anyones going to try it look into the effects of seratonin sickness. grandmas always dosed 5-htp in the morning then one every 1 1/2 hours after until shes had at last 4-5 pills you may want less depending on tolerance and body weight.also smoking a joint kicks the visuals in very well.and wait and hour from your last 5htp dose before ingesting dxm .or else your tummy will be unhappy!

its MHO that this is not dangerous for healthy people and should cause nothing more then a mild headache the next day and a sort lasting depression in most people,please dotn take this as meaning its safe.

[Nacumen]

Originally Posted by fnord

milk crates(wierd huh?)

Aye, it sounds weird, but on one of his first more intense DXM trips, SWIM saw a small metal wastebasket, the kind with perforations inbetween the sides (like the space inbetween the plastic in milk crates!), and said to his friend: "I'm in a basket!" He doesn't really know exactly why he said that, because even though he saw the basket, he didn't see himself in it, but saying that nevertheless was nevertheless his uninhibited response. Interesting.

[psyche]

This is a bit offtopic, but talking about a serotonine syndrome... is it similarly not-that-dangerous to combine MAOIs(beta-carbolines, strong MAOIs, at least I've understood) with 5-HTP? That seems to be more dangerous to me but don't know... Just occured that there might be some awesome visuals combining these two and possibly cannabis, since cannabis and MAOI's have given SWIM very visual effect indeed. Visual in a manner, that things he saw were primarily of a definite thing, more so than with mushrooms, altough not that convincing/real by appearance.

[fnord]

pretty sure that would be dangerous,but i dont know...as with all drugs there comes a danger,you could snort a line a coke for the first time and die from a pre-existing heart condition,when we make the choice to do drugs,we are taking our lives into our own hands and deciding to gamble,that said until someone offers proof of the dangers of a few 5-htp pills combined with dxm i still stand by my personal belief that this is safe,im not suggesting anyone try thing im just stating my opinion. please remeber to start with low doses of both and keep an eye out for side effects.

[snapper]

SWIM's point is that it could cause serotonin syndrome, which seems to appear somewhat randomly. SWIM has had it happen (tramadol + DXM) and it is really unpleasant and lasts a while. Note that SWIM also left it a sliding scale between irritating and death. Death rarely occurs, but can, particularly with pre-existing, occult conditions. The point it, there is a risk and as a harm-reduction site, risks should be voiced. SWIM has used high dose tryptamines with high dose DXM and gotten away with it, but would not recommend that either without knowing the risks involved. That said, we all make our own choices and the responsibility lies on each one's shoulders in the end.
5HTP and MAOI is more dangerous than 5HTP and DXM. SWIM would not recommend that, nor see the point in it.

[fnord]

occult conditions? could you explain this?

swim has had seratonin syndrom he sufferd mild depression and the inabilty to paint the letter g(temporyary dsylexia?)

[fnord]

can someone provide a link to something abobute serotonine sickness and death?involing dxm preferably?or at least something that dosent involea overdose of ssri's?

[El Calico Loco]

Wikipedia article on serotonin syndrome

DXM FAQ: Mixing DXM and Other Drugs

White's section on 5HT drugs (LSD, 2C-X, etc) is limited, but remember that the FAQ hasn't been updated in six years. We know that both DXM and 2C-X class chemicals inhibit the re-uptake of serotonin; that's why mixing the two is dangerous. 5-HTP is dangerous only because it puts more serotonin in there to begin with.

Note: 5-HT and serotonin are the same thing. 5-HTP is a serotonin precursor sold in vitamin shops. Taking 5-HTP leads to there being more 5-HT floating around in one's brain, which means that it would take less reuptake inhibition to cause the types of problems associated with having too much of it.


ECL

[svenghali]

Fnord, what dosage of 5-HTP and DXM did SWIY take...?

[fnord]

not sure of the milligrams(50mg?each maybe?) but 2-5 OTC htp pills mixed with 1-4 bottles of cough syrup.if your going to try it id just use 1 pill an hour before hand.and of course heed the others warnings.

[SuprSonik]

SWIM used to take Lexapro (an SSRI) and doses of DXM ranging from 240-360. SWIM was aware of the risk of serotonin syndrome and started with low doses of DXM and worked his way up. At doses of around 320mg with a daily dose of 20mg Lexapro, SWIM didn't exactly get visuals, but his senses were heightened greatly to colors and flashes of light.

The most interesting thing SWIM found at those doses though, was an INCREDIBLE sense of euphoria, rivaling and perhaps surpassing that of pure MDMA. Since stopping the Lexapro, DXM is nowhere near as enjoyable, although 5-HTP does enhance the effects somewhat. SWIM has considered taking Lexapro again just for the effect it has in combination with DXM. Even now SWIM finds himself longing to experience that feeling again; even MDMA doesn't seem to cut it for him. SWIM has a fair amount of experience with various drugs, and he insists that DXM on Lexapro produced the most enjoyable experiences he's ever had on a drug.

Now, SWIM takes about 200mg of 5-HTP 2 hours before dosing on DXM. SWIM would recommend 5-HTP to those who use DXM for its euphoric effects; it makes the experience more enjoyable. SWIM can't comment on 5-HTP's effects at the 3rd and 4th plateus, however he assumes it is not a good idea to combine 5-HTP with doses that high.

[svenghali]

Either SWISuperSonik has found a 'safe' way to potentiate DXM for its serotegenic qualities, or his body works differently than many others. Personally, SWIM feels that while the mixture may not necessarily be as dangerous as people urge him to believe, the people that usually urge him to believe so are educated chemists and psychonauts. They usually know what they're talking about, when they're talking about drugs. In conclusion, I don't think too many people should try this, but before I start to sound like an authority, could someone knowledgeable chime in?

[El Calico Loco]

Caveat: I'm neither a chemist nor a neurologist.

I think combining DXM with anything is asking for trouble, 5-HTP and SSRIs in particular (I won't even mention MAOIs - that will kill you outright). I think the degree of danger depends upon the person, however. Someone with low levels of serotonin at baseline (like a depressive) might be able to combine such things without incident; someone with normal levels might have "insane CEVs", agitation, and diarrhea, but nothing else; someone with high levels of serotonin might have a seizure.

If one is naturally anxious, irritable, manic, or possessed of lots of nervous energy, one should stay the hell away from such a combination.

Remember the words inscribed on the Temple of Apollo at Delphi.


ECL

[fnord]

Maybe try adding a med/herb that has anti-seizure properties might be a smart idea,just check for contradictions.

[El Calico Loco]

Originally Posted by fnord

also adding a med/herb that has anti-seizure properties might be a smart idea,just check for contradictions.

Hm. An interesting idea, but I don't think one is likely to find an anti-seizure med that wouldn't be contraindicated with DXM. Several are barbituates, which could cause respiratory depression. But I don't know much about others, so take this with several grains of salt.

Hunh. What do you know - bromides have anti-seizure properties. Perhaps there's a reason DXM generally comes as an HBr salt...a reason beyond the stated soluability issue.

Swim has had a seizure on DXM. It wasn't fun at all. He recommends against combining DXM and seizures. Codeine was involved, but he suspects it could easily have happened with DXM alone.


ECL

[Euthanatos93420]

Swim think Swit is talking about pot.
Sounds like no one knows anything definative

[jb2008]

5 HTP is a naturally occurring amino acid. Not saying every naturally occurring chemical is safe, but, generally, in reasonable amounts, ones that our bodies produce are safe.

If you take a normal amount of 5 HTP say 100-500mg, it won't do anything. SWIM was on 300 mg effexor XR (very much a high-end dose) and took 1000 mg 5 HTP and 500 mg DXM. This may seem like a smaller dose of DXM but it is effectively tripled by the presence of any SSRI/SNRI in the bloodstream. Plus SWIM had never taken DXM before. SWIM was rushed to hospital, drifting in and out of consciousness and vomiting, but SWIM was then given an antidote and SWIM was fine. Just a little uncomfortable. SWIM doesn't recommend DXM or anything to do with serotonin full stop, but SWIM is 99.999% sure it was the SNRI SWIM was taking, rather than 5 htp.

[jmakin24]

Do NOT mess with this. In the best case scenario, seratonin syndrome is extremely unpleasant. SWIM has had it a few times, never wants to repeat the experience again.

[El Calico Loco]

What were the substances in question, jmakin24?


ECL