Dissociatives - mode of action

[Dalfir]

I'm not sure where else to post this. I understand that hallucinogens are three broad categories. Psychedelics, which allow information and signals that would previously be filtered by the brain to reach the concious mind, dissociatives and deleriants.

What do dissociatives do? Are they the opposite of psychedelics in that they don't amplify signals travelling to the concious mind, but rather block them out so that some senses just aren't present? Before I got an interest in hallucinogens, I got high off N20 which, for about 15 seconds, sent me into a total trance where no influence of the outisde world had any effect on me. Do dissociatives just allow the concious and subconcious to function, while all outside stimuli are blocked out?

I've heard that deliriants can cause true hallucinations, but compared to dissociative and psychedelics, what do these do?

I posted this in the Insight's forum for a more a subjective response. Hope you don't mind.

[geezaman]

Although for a long time SWIM didn't believe it was completely possible he now knows it is, dissociative's if done enough or in the right manner do exactly what they say (or at least they are capable of it). Most of SWIMs experiences in a disassociated state he has not been able to fully explore, because he only realizes he was fully disassociated when the disassociation begins to wear off and he begins to regain the sense of having anything more than just "thought" to his being. The best way SWIM can describe it is like when you zonk out; your in a situation and suddenly you realize that your mind had completely drifted off, no longer paying any attention to where you are or anything else, Its like that state of mind but usually for longer periods, with drugs such as nitrous, their anesthetic analgesic properties mean you are less likely to be bought out of the disassociated state by outside stimulus
SWIMs aware SWIY seemed to be looking for a more biological reason or explanation but hopes his answer will be of some help anyway.

[chAos]

Originally Posted by Dalfir

I've heard that deliriants can cause true hallucinations, but compared to dissociative and psychedelics, what do these do?

On psychedelics the world around you changes, things can look very different but you still see things which are there. Also you usually know you have taken a psychdelic. Deliriants can make you see things which aren't there at all, like an old friend standing in your room, or for example a book. Also many people don't remember they have taken a drug when on a delirant.

There are some good trip reports and other information about most deliriants on the forums. After reading much about it swim decided deliriants are just to dangerous and hard on the body to ever consider it.

[JDreaming]

Dissociatives can cause wandering, dreamlike mental states, feelings of numbness, feelings of either floating or being incredibly heavy, feelings of unrealness, confusion, and ultimately can lead to profound out-of-body experiences. Dissociatives also sometimes cause feelings of merging with nearby objects, or empathically connecting with other people/animals. There's some crossover of effects between the related categories of psychedelic/dissociative substances... dissociatives can cause some audiovisual distortions, and psychedelics can cause some feelings of depersonalization and unrealness. But the dissociatives- DXM, PCP, Ketamine etc., mainly cause feelings of being lost, confused, floating in an unreal universe, with the mind floating off separate from the body.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good post man

[Beltane]

Originally Posted by chAos

On psychedelics the world around you changes, things can look very different but you still see things which are there. Also you usually know you have taken a psychdelic. Deliriants can make you see things which aren't there at all, like an old friend standing in your room, or for example a book. Also many people don't remember they have taken a drug when on a delirant.

There are some good trip reports and other information about most deliriants on the forums. After reading much about it swim decided deliriants are just to dangerous and hard on the body to ever consider it.

Great explanation of psychadelics. SWIM also couldn't care less about deleriants.

There's also a great wiki page listed below for dissociatives, but SWIM will summarize for anyone too lazy to follow the link. On a psychadelic, you look at a wall and that wall melts, or dances, or changes color or explains why penguins like snow.

Now on a dissociative, when it's in full effect (and SWIM is referring to his area of expertise- the K-hole/Ketmane,) SWIY's eyes see the wall, they even send the signal along normal channels to the brain, but somehow these signals don't reach the brain, and therefore there IS NO WALL.

But SWIY's ears hear music, and those signals don't reach the brain either. All of SWIY's senses are taking in information and sending along normal channels, but NONE of these signals are reaching the brain.

So SWIY's brain is used to receiving myriad signals from every direction, so many in fact that it needs filters. And now it's receiving NOTHING. So it just starts making up it's own signals, and these can be wild and varied. And this is a dissociative state.

Really can only be explained so well, it kinda has to be experienced to be understood.

- Beltane

[markdahman]

Originally Posted by Beltane

So SWIY's brain is used to receiving myriad signals from every direction, so many in fact that it needs filters. And now it's receiving NOTHING. So it just starts making up it's own signals, and these can be wild and varied. And this is a dissociative state.
- Beltane

Now wouldnt this be a subconscient(sp?) state?

[JDreaming]

I think both psychedelics and dissociatives can have the effect of merging your subconscious with your conscious mind, in different ways. Many hallucinations could be best described as feeling like one was "dreaming while still wide awake".

[meep]

Swim is intrested in K but not enough to get any in yet. Would salvia be the closer to a dissa or psyc?
Swim has tried acid and mesc but not come accross any dissociatives.

[JDreaming]

Originally Posted by vuue

Would salvia be the closer to a dissa or psyc?

I'd categorize Salvia as more dissociative than psychedelic personally... it's an unreliable and unpredictable but potentially powerful substance with psychedelic-like distortions at low doses, giving way to dissociation and possible delirium when higher dosages create "breakthroughs". Some of the states of mind it creates can be terrifying to some people, but physically it's a lot easier on your body than Ketamine or PCP. Also WAAAAY shorter lasting.

[dirk]

Good Old Wikipedia has a reasonable entry for disociative drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_drug

Also interesting is the wikipedia entry for "psychoactive drug".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive_drug

It has a very interesting Venn Diagram showing the "Classification by subjective and behavioral effects" of many drugs.

Well worth a look - comments anyone?

Reputation Comments on this post:

Very appropriate to poiint out the dissociative wiki page

[AntiAimer]

The disconnection of your mind from your body. From Smurfs understanding.

Smurf has slightly experienced this with his experimentation with dissociative drugs like DXM and ketamine. So for him, when he fell into a CEV(closed eye visual) it's almost like his mind actually walked into it's own demension\galaxy\planet. He could see and feel the transition. Makeing it almost seem like he had no body(Maybe OBE?), untill he thought about it and this feeling left. But when he was hallucinateing...say he was moving in this CEV....he could feel the movements without actually moveing. Like the feelings one can get from being on a intense rollercoaster. So heart dropping, feeling like your going down hill....up hill....turning...falling...feelings of sinking...emotional feelings and so fourth. One could litterally feel as if they could get stuck in there own mind.

Maybe bad example but if you get what was typed...bottom line, disconnection of mind from body. With feelings and thoughts that one may never have sober.

[LookingForHer]

DXM isn't just a "blocker".

It is a strong stimulant! Seriously. It makes swim feel "wired" all night. like tons of super energy buzzing around. Very energetic thing DXM.

The thing is, it's an energetic/higher-concept stimulant.

It sucks for technical/muscle stimulancy Don't try to solve maths on DXM, the damage to your equations could be irreversible

You know something cool I just realised?

When you are dreaming, you often don't realise you are dreaming!

And on dissociatives, you often don't realise you are on dissociatives.

Interesting connection? They are both very "dream-like" right?

[meep]

Swim has always explained salvia to his friends like that, its like waking up in a dream, nothing is real but at the same time, it is.

swim assumes hes going down the right road with dissociatives in thinking this ?

[AuraithX]

You don't feel inside your body. You look at your arms and think "wtf are those things...oh, they're mine"

[VitaminK22]

Dissociatives put your mind into a dream state by shutting down part of the brain that controls all the signals received through the spinal cord, this then seperates your mind from your actual body. essencially, your dreaming while your still conscious and awake, making it more realistic than a dream.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/keta...roject_1.shtml
chek this site, it has loads of good info on what it does to your brain

[schwarzesherz]

On DXM, at low doses 120-600mg you have a feeling of energy and loss of control of motor functions, but not oh my god i cant move, but whtas that ohhh thats my arm moving, also you feel out of tune with poeple.
Now on large doses you feel out-of-tune with soroundiings

[schwarzesherz]

On DXM, at low doses 120-600mg you have a feeling of energy and loss of control of motor functions, but not oh my god i cant move, but whtas that ohhh thats my arm moving, also you feel out of tune with poeple.
Now on large doses you feel out-of-tune with soroundiings and people, and loss of all most functions, well consciouse loss

[khrma]

Dissociatives impair you to function as well as you could function on pyschadelics, and deleriants is even harder to function under the influence of. Dissociatives and pyschadelics are closer as far as the visuals but not in the feelings and emotions. Delerients produce completely different hallucinations that seem ordinary and not-out-of-place and can often lead you to believe things are happening that simply aren't, even though it might be something ordinary; ie: talking to a friend. SWIM says that if you have never hallucinated before you should not attempt delierents, not until you have become and experianced "tripper", or even better, never (not a good drug in SWIM's oppinion).

[imyourlittlebare]

ps

delerients- poisons. effect acetylcholine. VERY DANGEROUS. can cause bad hallucinations, sweating, vomiting and death.

[imyourlittlebare]

scientific breakdown
dissociatives- are NMDA antagonists. they occupy the receptors involved in learning and memory. some are very benificial. a dose of ketamine is shown to have immediate antidepressent effects that last for weeks. ifenprodil can save a life after a stroke by preventing neurotoxicity from glutamate (a excitatory neurotransmitter involved with nmda) however, more potent and selective nmda antagonists such as pcp are not very benificial. its best not to screw with nmda receptors though. rats are given high doses or pcp to sometimes model schizophrenia

hallucinogens- effect different neurotransmitters and not nmda receptors. mostly seratonin. lsd is NOT like schizophrenia like some people would have you believe. a group of schizo patients were given lsd and could tell the difference between their hallucinations and the lsd induced hallucinations

meth and coke- can cause hallucinations that are similar to schizophrenia. used as a animal model sometimes. causes high amounts of anxiety filled halluncinations due to its effects on dopamine which i stimulating but one of the reasons why we believe schizophrenics are schizo. antipsychotics like haliperidol reduce dopamine and stop hallucinations alot of times in patients

salvia- effects receptors called kappa receptors. very unique and has antidepressant qualities that are shortlived because of its relatively short halflife in the brain

hope this helps!