dosage question for a poppy straw tincture

[Benga]

This might be a hard one, as poppy straw is not standardised, but swim hopes someone might help do the maths.

If a Victorian-era individual from the days of yore was to macerate 60 grams of poppy straw ( mixed dried poppy head powder) into 600ml of 95° (200% proof) rectified / absolute (drinking) alcohol, with a little saffron cloves and cinnamon for taste, letting it sit in a dark place for a few weeks, what have been a starting dose for this Victorian-era individual with no tolerance to opiates ? swim's been reading recipes elsewhere involving prior to alcohol maceration water based reductions but does not really understand their necessity, as tinctures are usually effective as such, and thinks the Victorian-bugger would be better off percolating at the end of the process rather than evaporate a nearly waterless alcoholic solution...

so 60grs poppy straw into 600ml of 95° alcohol, for a 75kg individual...
there is no standard weight of a dried (empty) poppy pod ( these are not giganthiums), swim would say this is between 1g and 2g of powder - since many poppy enthusiast have the ( bad) habit of refering to doses in terms of pod numbers instead of weights of mixed powder. So 60gr of straw could be anything between 30 to 60 pods.

any motivated dosage guesses ? better a disapointed victorian than a twice dead victorian, has they say....

b

[MrJim]

So Did SWIB also measure the straw by Volume? SWIM normally measures it by Volume, out of the fact that that is the measuring tools he has conveinent. Also how was the Straw prepared? Was it solely heads? Did swiB use a little stock too? What about the seeds - Were they removed (SWIM would assume so)?
What about other opiates? Where does SWIB feel comfortable effects from them?
Has swib used tea before? Is there a comfortable dosage swib already knows about from those experiences?
Just trying to get a better sense.
If unsure SWIM would recommend a small dose and then nothing for at least 1 and a 1/2 hours - this stuff can be quite slow to build in the body.

[Benga]

Originally Posted by MrJim

So Did SWIB also measure the straw by Volume? SWIM normally measures it by Volume, out of the fact that that is the measuring tools he has conveinent. Also how was the Straw prepared? Was it solely heads? Did swiB use a little stock too? What about the seeds - Were they removed (SWIM would assume so)?
What about other opiates? Where does SWIB feel comfortable effects from them?
Has swib used tea before? Is there a comfortable dosage swib already knows about from those experiences?
Just trying to get a better sense.
If unsure SWIM would recommend a small dose and then nothing for at least 1 and a 1/2 hours - this stuff can be quite slow to build in the body.

straw was made from ground heads only, seeds removed. for volume swim only singled out 4 pods, and kept in a jar. weight was roughly 3 grams.
swim has tried tea before, but below threshold level, and has absolutely no tolerance to opiates.
b

[allyourbase]

....youd not get much from just steeping. heat before you strain. defat with paraffin wax. add a good bit of citrus, it eases the flavour and provides a good extraction environment, probably wouldnt taste too bad with cloves and safron. SWIM's experience is that 4-5 grams of straight defatted poppy tincture is very effective on an empty stomach. if SWIY hasnt had morphine in a while chances are SWIY will puke half an hour after all the good stuff ends.

I scream, you scream, we all scream for morphine.

[Benga]

Originally Posted by allyourbase

....youd not get much from just steeping. heat before you strain. defat with paraffin wax. add a good bit of citrus, it eases the flavour and provides a good extraction environment, probably wouldnt taste too bad with cloves and safron. SWIM's experience is that 4-5 grams of straight defatted poppy tincture is very effective on an empty stomach. if SWIY hasnt had morphine in a while chances are SWIY will puke half an hour after all the good stuff ends.

I scream, you scream, we all scream for morphine.

swim was thinking of steeping for 3 weeks in the 95° (drinking) alcohol and then percolating it ( cold percolation in a percolation funnel, for 24 hours, eventually adding a bit of 95° alcohol if needed. would the heating add that much to a 3 week maceration followed by percolation ?
as for the paraffin wax defatting procedure, would you have more info ? swim's gonna look around as well.

thanks

b

[allyourbase]

heat is important when extracting morphinans, so is acidity of the extraction solvent. the defatting bit is fairly easy, take some cheap parrafin candles, melt them and pour the wax into the liquid extract, the wax absorbs most of the lipids, and can be easily strained out with a cloth. SWIM has tried cold extraction (room temperature) virtually no effect from the resulting extract. in SWIM's experience heat is always required.

[Benga]

Originally Posted by allyourbase

heat is important when extracting morphinans, so is acidity of the extraction solvent. the defatting bit is fairly easy, take some cheap parrafin candles, melt them and pour the wax into the liquid extract, the wax absorbs most of the lipids, and can be easily strained out with a cloth. SWIM has tried cold extraction (room temperature) virtually no effect from the resulting extract. in SWIM's experience heat is always required.

thanks. Ok so when swim starts percolating he'll definetly put the percolator near a heat source, and possibly add some citric acid to the solvent.
swim's looked into some old poppy preparations such as these :

----

Decoctum Papaveris, B.P., 1885.—DECOCTION OF POPPY.
Poppy capsules, 10; distilled water, sufficient to produce 100. Add the bruised capsules to 150 of the water, boil for ten minutes, strain, and make up to the required volume, if necessary, by passing distilled water through the strainer. Decoction of poppy is a useful adjunct to astringent injections; it is also used as a fomentation to allay the pain of abscesses.
Extractum Papaveris, B.P., 1885.—EXTRACT OF POPPY.
Poppy capsules, freed from seeds and in No. 20 powder, 100; rectified spirit, 12.5; distilled water, boiling, a sufficient quantity. Digest the poppy capsules in 250 of the boiling water for twenty-four hours, stirring frequently; then transfer to a percolator, and exhaust by percolation with more boiling distilled water. Evaporate the liquid on a water-bath to 125, when cold add the alcohol, allow to stand for twenty-four hours, filter, and evaporate on a water-bath until a mass of pilular consistence is obtained. Extract of poppy is used internally in pill form as a mild sedative, and dissolved in hot water as a fomentation. Dose.—1 to 3 decigrams (2 to 5 grains).
Extractum Papaveris Liquidum, B.P.C.—LIQUID EXTRACT OF POPPY.
Poppy capsules, 45; alcohol, 25; distilled water, to 100. An ingredient of cough mixtures and syrups, being employed for its mildly soothing properties. It is sometimes added to astringent lotions and injections, 2 mils (30 minims) to 30 mils (1 fluid ounce). Dose.—2 to 4 mils (30 to 60 minims).
Syrupus Papaveris, B.P.C.—SYRUP OF POPPY. 2 (liquid extract) in 5.
A mildly sedative preparation used in cough mixtures. Dose.—2 to 4 mils (1/2 to 1 fluid drachm).
------

interesting to note that the capsules are actually boiled, swim thought this would break down the alkaloids.

ok so if swim had a maceration in 95° distilled alcohol which is over a week old, his plan would be :

place in the percolator, and extract the alcohol menstruum, which is saved.
transfer the poppy straw safran mixture to a pot
add water to cover the mixture
raise the pH slightly ( citric acid, lemon juice ?)
heat in a sand bath for 30 minutes to an hour, staying below boiling point, without letting the water evaporate completely.
save the remaining water, and combine, while it is still hot, with the 95° menstruum.
percolate 3 times over 48 hours, near a heat source, adding 50 to 100ml more heated 95° alcohol at each percolation.
Let the last percolation evaporate slightly.
strain and get rid of the straw.
defat the liquid extract with parafin, and store.

another option would be to evaporate some of the original cold percolate, and to do a fresh hot percolation with some 95° drinking alcohol, this time in a italian "moka" type coffee percolator, then mixing the two menstruums in a final cold percolation and strain.

is a strong acidity really necessary or would a dash of lemon juice do the trick ?


anyway, how does this sound to swiy ?
and if anyone have info on the ideal pH and and temperature ( below 75° celcius possibly ? 60° sounds a very common heating point for hot percolates)

Iceolation sounds promising as well, but swim is really going for a fluid extract type of tincture, not a miscible / smokeable.
all the traditional opium and poppy tinctures swim's been reading about seemed to have been produced by maceration heating and percolation ( lixiviation), so swim will probably stick to these for now. but thanks for the suggestion.
b

[MrJim]

SWIM tried Iceolation, back a couple of years ago. He thought it worked, but didn't know the tea like he does now. He would like to try again to verify this. You guys remember iceolation?
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8351

[Benga]

oh and another additional question : for the hot extraction, which would be the best suited : an (electric) stovetop italian "moka" type extraction device or a krups pressure expresso maker ( swim forgets how many bars of pressure, possibile 8 or more). swim has both but would me more inclined to used the moka for some reason.

thanks
b

[MrJim]

SWIM uses a double-boiler to control scorching and heat, but these days has been wondering the true nature of the alkaloids in reaction to hight heats.

[Benga]

just a question on the parafin defatting, what kind of parafin ratio should be used for 500ml of liquid ( 95° ethanol) ?
thanks

b