Combinations - Antidepressants and Psychedelics

[mouthwater]

According to an article on erowid:

SEROTONIN-SELECTIVE ANTIDEPRESSANTS:
*Fluoxetine* (Prozac) -- even at doses of this antidepressant ranging from 2mg/day to 40 mg/day, there was an overall decrease in most effects from LSD (no matter how much acid people took), as well as a decrease in response to ketamine. There was no change in response to psilocybin. There does seem to be a decrease in the response to MDMA.
*Sertraline* (Zoloft) -- the effect with this antidepressant seems to be dose-dependent. At 50 mg/day, there was no effect on the response to LSD nor to psilocybin. However, at 100 mg/day, there was a decrease in response to both LSD and MDMA.
*Paroxetine* (Paxil) -- decrease in response to LSD.
*Trazodone* (Desyrel) -- decrease in response to LSD.
TRICYCLIC ANTIDEPRESSANTS:
*Imipramine* (Tofranil) -- increase in response to LSD.
*Desipramine* (Norpramine) -- increase in response to LSD.
*Clomipramine* (Anafranil) -- increase in response to LSD.
LITHIUM:
(*alone* or *in combination with a tricyclic antidepressant*) -- increase in response to LSD or psilocybin.
MONOAMINE OXIDASE INHIBITOR:
*Phenelzine* (Nardil) -- decrease in response to LSD
**TAKE NOTE OF THE RESPONSE TO MDMA: combining an MAO inhibitor plus MDMA has led to a hypertensive crisis and a near-fatal response in many people!!! This could be anticipated because MDMA is a substituted amphetamine, and stimulants should not be combined with an MAO inhibitor!!! DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!

Now, SWIM has been on SSRIs before, a few years ago during a very troubling period of their life that s/he does not wish to repeat to his/her fellow SWIYs. SWIM is consideration medication now because s/he may be undergoing a "transitional" period, where s/he abandons old friends and locations and inhabits new places with new people. SWIM figures the SSRIs will help with this transition, even though they may or may not affect his or her genitalia's functioning.

SWIM can't tell if s/he should pick an antidepressant based on what is written above. SWIM isn't going on an antidepressant because s/he is crazy, and s/he plans on using recreational drugs in the meantime (of course, with proper research, as always). SWIM is hence considering tricyclic antidepressants because they are clearly more beneficial when it comes to using drugs. SWIM has tried finding other studies showing the same correlation as the erowid report has, but hasn't found anything.

Does SWIY know if tricyclic antidepressants really don't decrease a response to psychedeliks (or, does SWIY know if tricyclic antidepressants do increase a response to psychedeliks)?

Thanks.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good Info

[Laudaphun]

One thing that SWIM wouldn't recommend, is mixing prozac with LSD. SWIM has read no research to back this up, although he hasn't looked, however once during SWIM's first year of college a friend of his had taken some acid, was tripping and having a good time as he normally did while tripping. Then some people showed, one of whom gave SWIM's friend a prozac. SWIM suggested that his friend who was tripping on LSD not take it, because SWIM had always been very cautious about combining drugs without doing his research. SWIM's friend however was the local lab rat and never hesitated to take anything. SWIM doesn't know if something else triggered this or if it was a direct result of the prozac, but SWIM's friend started vomitting black stuff and was spun into the trip from hell. SWIM's friend crawled into bed with him crying because he thought he was dying. So all night SWIM had to lay there with his whacked out friend, reassuring him that he wasn't going to die.

Like SWIM says, he doesn't know if it was the prozac or not, but SWIM's friend hadn't taken anything else that he was aware of... SWIM strongly suspects that it was the prozac that had caused the bad trip...

[mouthwater]

On another page, Erowid read:

2. Lithium or tricyclics (like Amitriptyline, Anafranil, Asendin, Aventyl, Elavil, Endep, Norfranil, Norpramin, Pamelor, Sinequan, Surmontil, Tipramine, Tofranil, Vivactil) are fairly consistently reported as being very bad in combination with LSD. People attempting this combination are unable to communicate with others, they go into "fugue states" where they end up in other places and don't know how they got there, and they are generally in a terrible place psychologically. Life-threatening seizures and at least one DEATH have been reported to be triggered by the combination of LSD and lithium.
3. SSRIs (like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, Desyrel) or MAOIs (like Nardil, Parnate, Marplan, Eldepryl, Aurorex, Manerix) are fairly consistently reported to noticeably reduce the effects of LSD. MAOIs seem to cause a greater reduction in the effects of LSD than SSRIs.

Apparently, tricyclics increase the effects of LSD, and affect the trip negatively? Are there any SSRIs that don't reduce the effects of, or mix piss poorly with, LSD? Any other SWIY's have personal accounts to share?

[Jatelka]

The SSRI effect is a class-effect. Any SSRI + LSD = Not effective.
SWIJ took Dothiepin (Dosulepin) for some years and did indeed notice that LSD (and 2C-I) effects were stronger. She did not notice any negative effects.

A couple of papers from the archive that SWIY might find interesting...

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...d=343&catid=32
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...=1173&catid=32

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good Info

[_caesar_]

SWIM has experiance with Seroxat an SSRI and MDMA, he noticed that it deiminished the empathic effect and that the amphetamine like effects were more prounounced. At the time he was a pill gobbling little raver a and would try to compinsate with more...

He cant remember if this really worked.

SWIM is wondering if any body out there has experiance with SSRIs or SNRIs and Phenetylamines namely 2C-B ?

[kalininin]

[quote=_caesar_;238940]

SWIM is wondering if any body out there has experiance with SSRIs or SNRIs and Phenetylamines namely 2C-B ?



with ssri 20% nicer/better fx same for mush n piperazine
same for above n efexor lemur hasnt dared take prozac or efexor
with dmt or ahahuasca, any swiy out there can tell him this combination is no problem at all [please]?

[Taj]

This past winter break SWIM was on zoloft at 100 mg/day and also had ready access to many psychadelics at VERY low prices (in many cases free) so SWIM decided to experiment first hand to see how SSRIs would react to varying levels of psychadelics.

SWIM found that at varying doses of 1/8-3/8 of psilocybin there was no noticed difference from the effects which SWIM had felt before having taken any SSRIs.

SWIM found that hits of LSD (ranging from 1-4 tabs) were still effective, but the trip was much less intense than SWIM had previously experienced.

SWIM found that 2CE & 2CI responded in a similar fashion to LSD in the fact that it was a noticable differention than that of daily reality, but not as strong as previous encounters with the chemicals had been.

While on SSRIs SWIM also found the most intense trip of his life. This trip was brought about by taking 20 mgs of Ambien and then 15-20 minutes later smoking 1 average sized bowl of marijuana. SWIM does not know if the SSRIs played any role in how intense this trip was, but he felt it was worth noting.

SWIM would not reccomend this much experimentation to anyone in such a short time period (3 weeks) as shortly thereafter he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and is experiencing many symptoms which feel almost as if he is living in a permanant trip. He does not know if it is due to the intensity of the experiences and how many he encountered in such a short period of time, or if it was as the psychiatrist (who is unaware of SWIM's experiences with psychadelics) claims is a result of SWIM's IQ.

SWIM hopes this information has been helpful as it is all from first hand experience.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Just what we're looking for - nice one & welcome!
	Very informative.
	Good research, and well-presented.
	accurate report on 1st hand experiences. partly in realms whit too little info around (i.e. phens+ssri)

[mouthwater]

Thanks Taj for the original research.

[hoodabudda]

what about with marijuana? swim has herd that people take lexapro(not sure of chemical) or zoloft(sertaline) 2 hours before smoking a bowl will "make you trip face".

[Graduisic]

swim takes citalopram 40mg per day. smokes marijuana daily and still enjoys the buzz. he seemed to have a more introspective trip on shrooms, and has had some of the most intense DXM trips of his life, he has a very strong tolerance to it and will always down 3 bottles of zicam cough mist and he will trip for approx 24 hours. seems to lengthen the comedown process. after experiencing a usual 4th plateau trip, he will find himself tripping on 2nd plateau for a full day after the full trip is over. swimmers inexperienced with upper level DXM trips would probably have a pyschotic break, but with swim's constant abuse of DXM for 5 years straight now, it has done its damage, and the damage is nothing worse than the damage done by the citalopram itself. MDMA wont cause one to roll if someone is taking an SSRI, it's a waste.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thanks for the info.

[Lethargy]

SWIM had taken prozac daily for about a year prior to ever trying psychedelics...

DXM = much longer lasting
LSD = not sure as the first three or so times he used it he had prozac in his system but he tripped just fine
Mushrooms = tripped just fine on prozac
E = didn't work, went up... up... 30 mins into it ran into a ceiling

keep in mind that the SSRI may have lowered the potency of the 'cid and 'shrooms but due to unknown potencies from street drugs SWIM can't know for sure

[wykydtron]

SWIM has taken both LSD and Mushrooms while on a high dose of effexor, and reacted more strongly than other people taking the same LSD or Mushrooms. The stronger reaction probably didn't have anything to do with the effexor - SWIM reacts strongly to most drugs. The point is the effexor didn't diminish the effects. Also, the experiences were positive.

[stonedphilosopher]

First post wooo!

For what it's worth, I know a little bit about this, in a way. I know a guy who took Prozac (fluoxetine) for depression for about 6 months in college. If I remember right, he took 10 mg at first, then 20 mg. During this time, he took LSD three times. The first two times he took about 2 hits and the trip was exactly as normal, only with NO visuals. Literally, take a list of LSD's effects on you and just cross out everything visual, that's what this guy had. He loved it and found that it gave the experience a more edgy/trippy effect to have the mental trip and yet no visuals. The third time, he took about 5 or 6 hits of very strong liquid and had the strongest, best trip of his life, including visuals, and that trip was such a great experience that it lifted him out of a depression that had lasted a few weeks at that point.

Take it for what it's worth. I think SSRIs "block" LSD in a way, but the blocking seems to affect the visuals a lot more than the overall trip. With enough LSD, one still trips, hard. And I think arguably the antidepressant/mood lift effects of SSRIs could positively influence a trip (although, for the person in this post, SSRIs never seemed to do much for his mood anyway).

Reputation Comments on this post:

Clarifiction and food for thought. this post may lead to further experiments and points out that SSRI+Acid might not be ...

[merecat]

SWIM has taken lsd whilst on daily does of cymbalta. SWIM experienced a very degraded lsd experience- some small perception/thought disturbances, not worth it.

SWIM also consumed a baggie of psilocybin shrooms whilst taking her daily 60mg dose of cymbalta. The baggie would have produced a decent shroom trip were it not for the cymbalt. Again, it was hardly worth it.

[spacelord]

Originally Posted by Taj

While on SSRIs SWIM also found the most intense trip of his life. This trip was brought about by taking 20 mgs of Ambien and then 15-20 minutes later smoking 1 average sized bowl of marijuana.
[...] SWIM would not reccomend this much experimentation to anyone in such a short time period (3 weeks) as shortly thereafter he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and is experiencing many symptoms which feel almost as if he is living in a permanant trip. He does not know if it is due to the intensity of the experiences and how many he encountered in such a short period of time, or if it was as the psychiatrist (who is unaware of SWIM's experiences with psychadelics) claims is a result of SWIM's IQ.

Hey buddy hope SWIY is recovering. It would be cool to have another post (maybe it belongs in pharmacology) about substance induced mental health issues like SWIY's. What schizophrenic smptoms are there and how intense is this this prolonged trip.

Originally Posted by hoodabudda

what about with marijuana? swim has herd that people take lexapro(not sure of chemical) or zoloft(sertaline) 2 hours before smoking a bowl will "make you trip face".

Doubt that one. Could only happen if those 2 differ a lot from oder ADs in terms of their mode of action.

Originally Posted by Graduisic

but with swim's constant abuse of DXM for 5 years straight now, it has done its damage, and the damage is nothing worse than the damage done by the citalopram itself. MDMA wont cause one to roll if someone is taking an SSRI, it's a waste.

Any nasty side effects from citalopram? Permanent damage induced by its use?

Originally Posted by kalininin

with ssri 20% nicer/better fx same for mush n piperazine
same for above n efexor lemur hasnt dared take prozac or efexor
with dmt or ahahuasca, any swiy out there can tell him this combination is no problem at all

Ayahuasca brews work because of MAOI(s). DMT by iself wouldn't do a thing. As a generel rule: no MAOIS with SSRI as everybody should actually.

It would be a good thing if someone would talk to a med. doctor or pharmacologist at what doses of both the SSRI+MAOI could be safely taken together.

As for the effect on the trip, SWIM is afraid he has no clue.

[kalininin]

[quote=spacelord;340162]
Ayahuasca brews work because of MAOI(s). DMT by iself wouldn't do a thing. As a generel rule: no MAOIS with SSRI as everybody should actually.

quote]

lemur knows that, hed like to know if swiys have had atypical reactions/trips, for example 'howlermonkey had no side fx' or 'babboon found out [the hard way] that 10% 0f aya-dose with efexor produces desired fx'.
the lemur think atypical fx can happen, cuz he heard rumours bout this regularly ao in pikhal he believes [but cant find now] n from some amsterdam spokesapes.
he also thinks that at least 1 combination of shrooms or piperazine or 2cb with efexor/prozac shoudve
produced an unpleasant trip, this based on scientific reports he read [somewhere]. n it didnt in his efexored-lemurbody ! all good pleasant trips!
therefore howler-lemur is hopeful n will in near future experiment with small doses of syrian rue n the efexor hes stuck with.

as to a physician revealing 'inside-info' in this matter, swim -> homeric laughter ! we monks must find these matters out amongst ourselves.

[spacelord]

Originally Posted by kalininin

as to a physician revealing 'inside-info' in this matter, swim -> homeric laughter ! we monks must find these matters out amongst ourselves.

Why does SWIY laugh at that? It's not mainly about "drug abuse". There must be some info around combining SRIs and MAOIs esp. if there are safe doses. And only after obtaining that information SWIM would consider taking any MAOI even in small amounts. Safety first. Risking serotonin syndrome does not seem to be a good idea in SWIM's view. He'd rather not trip.