How Important Is Flame Temperature with Salvia Divinorum?

[CrumbsInTheBed]

Ok, here's how the story goes. SWIM had bought some salvia(13X) about a month ago, and even after researching it thoroughly, felt that he could handle it. How wrong he was. Anyway, SWIM packed a big bowl into a small glass pipe, took a massive hit and held it for about 45 seconds. As he breathed out the smoke he was transported to another dimension and experienced something so mind-boggling it could only be described as life-changing. SWIM used only a regular cigarette liter for this.

Anyway, today he tried to do it again, and felt he smoked it very well, but the effects were only a tiny, tiny fraction of what he got before. He got the slight gravity feeling, but was still in this universe and was able to communicate. SWIM has no idea why he cannot achieve the same effect again and is very frustrated, because he wants to go back to the other dimension. He then bought an even stronger extract (over 20X), and used a medium sized bong. He took a huge hit, and still, only minimal effects. Needless to say, this is very, very frustrating.

The only thing SWIM can think to change is to go to a torch lighter. The question is, how much better is a torch lighter in obtaining an effect than using a regular lighter? Also, what is your opinion as to why SWIM can't get back to the other dimension anymore? SWIM was under the impression that salvia worked under a reverse tolerance. SWIM thanks you.

[Alfa]

A torch lighter is essential. With extracts over 10X a milligram scale is needed as well. Otherwise it is not feasable to weigh out a good dose. A Salvia user risks either to mild effect / no effects or a overdose which often results in a scary trip.
With a torch lighter SWIY will probably be able to get launched into hyper space.
Just out of curiousity: did SWIY think of something he wants to do in salvia hyper space?

[CrumbsInTheBed]

SWIM merely wants to try to better understand what happened to him the first time in his life he lost touch with reality. This time SWIM wants to simply let the experience happen how it may, because the first time SWIM was so shocked by how he lost his mind that he desperately tried to fight to get back to reality, which made the trip very scary. When SWIM tried again to go back to salvia-land and failed, the mild experience was akin to a strong marijuana high with some physical sensation, and was hardly scary or life-changing like before, and that's what SWIM is after.

Also then, do you believe that after obtaining a torch lighter it would be better to use the glass pipe or the medium sized bong that SWIM has? The bong also accommodates for ice so as to cool the smoke.

[Alfa]

I do not know what effect the water has on the smoke beside cooling it. I gather the water will filter the smoke in some ways, but if or in what way it will effect the psychoactive impact of the smoke, I do not know.

[senorsalvia]

Swim has been smoking ho-made 8X for years... (Quick-n-dirty 3 time acetone wash) method.... Swim is under the impression that all the reports of needing a super temp are in error.... Swim says he can even smoke a rolled 8X joint lit with a Bic lighter and titrated his trips with fair precision... Anybody else notice this??? (or has Swim just goteen used to the "reverse tolerance" issuses) ????

[psyche]

SWIM was also let disappointed with his encounters with salvia. He used 5X and 10X extracts and never got more than the gravity-pulls. His lighter was also a regular one, but he has been doubtful about the necessarity of butane lighter since so many people have succesfully launched into hyperspace with a regular lighter.

[CrumbsInTheBed]

Yeah, I just don't get why it would have happened the first time to such an extreme degree, and then on subsequent tries getting only a fraction of the original experience. SWIM smoked it exactly the same way he did the first time. This is extremely frustrating. Any other ideas as to what the problem could be would be much appreciated. SWIM still intends to try the torch lighter, but if that doesn't work, he will be pretty damn upset that he can't recreate the most amazing experience of his life.

And just incase anyone was wondering, SWIM is quite an experienced smoker and knows how to take the necessary hits and how to hold them to achieve the best effect.

[Alfa]

Salvinorum A has a melting point of 238 - 240 degrees Celcius. A butane lighter(normal lighter) averages 750 degrees Celcius. A pocket Torch produces up to 1300 degrees celsius.
How does the melting point relate to the heat a lighter flame produces?

[CrumbsInTheBed]

So isn't what you are saying by those temperatures that it wouldn't matter which lighter you used, because both are plenty hot enough? SWIM is very confused, is the torch lighter a necessity or not?

[Alfa]

AFAIK the Torch lighter is a necessity. Melting, vaporizing and burning are different things. I'd like to know the vaporizing and burning point of salvinorum A, B & C.

[xctico]

I've been trying to find the boiling point for salvinorin A on Google for some time, with very poor results... if anyone has a link it would be appreciated.

[psyche]

SWIM had a try with 5x extract and torch lighter, altough the fuel was propably running out and the flame was a bit lame. As he held it it the physical world seemed to be spinning wildly and the environment started looking really alien. He had read that it is really unworldly and bizarre, and the experience was really that bizarre. There was an overwhelming feeling of alienity. But he was still aware of his environment, so the goal wasn't achieved.

If the reverse tolerance thingy really is only for hours, then the torch made the difference. It was totally more than in a summer in dam, when he only got gravitational pulls. Next he is going to give a 10x or 15x a try.

[max_freakout]

I spoke to Daniel Siebert about this (see the salvia podcast thread) and he said a torchlighter is unnecessary, especially for the extracts, an ordinary flame is easily hot enough to vaporize salvinorin

[wellhelm]

The torch lighter debate! Thoughts from wikipedia, Sage wisdom, and then Erowid.

WIKI
Dry leaves can be smoked in a pipe but most users prefer the use of a water pipe to cool the smoke. The temperature required to release salvinorin A from the plant material is quite high (about 240°C). A regular flame will work, but the direct application of something more intense, such as the flame produced from a butane torch lighter, is often preferred.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvia_divinorum

From Daniel Siebert's FAQ.
Q. Do I need a special kind of lighter to smoke salvinorin A fortified leaf or Salvia divinorum leaves?
A. An ordinary lighter or match is quite hot enough to vaporize salvinorin A and should be quite adequate for smoking salvinorin A fortified leaf products. An extra hot flame, such as that produced by a micro-torch, will simply cause more rapid vaporization and combustion. This can be an advantage when smoking plain Salvia divinorum leaves, because it is usually necessary to smoke a relatively large amount of leaf in a short amount time to achieve strong effects.


Erowid
It has been noted that the primary active compound, salvinorin A, needs a lot of heat to vaporize, and it is suggested that one hold the flame over the dried herb for the whole time that one is inhaling. Some people report better results when smoking by using a mini-torch style lighter.
http://www.erowid.org/plants/salvia/....shtml#methods

[xctico]

It seems that the torch lighter simply reaches the desired temperature faster... Q has smoked salvia in several occasions without a torch [using a small butane lighter -bic- and a pipe with a very small bowl] getting ++ effects most times and perhaps one +++
Q needs to get himself a better pipe [one with much more capacity] and a torch lighter to continue experimenting... but he doesn't think ++++ will be too elusive with sally

[Demonslayer]

Flame temperature dosn't matter at all.
If the salvia burns with a bright red glow in your pipe, it is about 800 degrees celsius. You can light it with a match if you want.

When will this flame-temp-myth end?

[xctico]

Originally Posted by Demonslayer

When will this flame-temp-myth end?

Q says, let's bring it down mythbusters style... with a nice series of controlled experiments using both lighters

Originally Posted by fnord

quick/easy answer with a suitible extract a torch shouldent be nessacary but is highly recommended if you want the smoke to stay in a vapor form for as long as possible,so if you want the full effect you can get use a torch/medium sized bong.if your not worried about losing some saliva then don't worry and use a lighter.swim used to sell salvia over myspace(yes stupid idea but he needed money and had a large group of trusted friends)so he had tons of salvia 10-40ish extract kicking around and never bothered with a torch.

well, not that foolish considering it's still a legal high... much smarter than selling weed over myspace... unless you're in Australia of course...

[CrumbsInTheBed]

As the creator of this topic, I say we put it to bed right now. And thanks for the post Max, I listened to your podcast, and if someone with as much expertise on salvia as Daniel says the torch lighter is unnecessary, I am going to believe him.

It falls in line with SWIMs story as well, since SWIM broke through with a regular lighter his first time, but was not able to ever again even with a torch lighter (or a regular one). This is still a mystery to SWIM though, and he hasn't tried salvia again since he finished up the last of what he had.

The only thing SWIM can think of is that the salvia was of poor quality, but even that doesn't make sense, as the first time he tried it he broke through completely, and then using the same exact stuff later on was never able to break through again. It was Club 13 brand if anyone knows anything about it, like if it's supposed to be poor quality.

[fnord]

quick/easy answer with a suitible extract a torch shouldent be nessacary but is highly recommended if you want the smoke to stay in a vapor form for as long as possible,so if you want the full effect you can get use a torch/medium sized bong.if your not worried about losing some saliva then don't worry and use a lighter.swim used to sell salvia over myspace(yes stupid idea but he needed money and had a large group of trusted friends)so he had tons of salvia 10-40ish extract kicking around and never bothered with a torch.

[Salvinorin A]

Basically SWIM's two cents, which he has experience personaly through experimentation.

As stated above, the torch produces a hotter flame. and the technique is to hold the torch on the material the entire time, not just light it.

The idea is such: The hotter the material burns (temp of the torch lighter), the longer it takes to cool down. So the salvinorin gas (or droplets) carried by the smoke will stay their longer. So if one has a longer pipe (or any pipe really, or bong), more salvia will condense before reaching one's lungs. It must also reach the lungs too people, SWIY doesn't metabolize salvia smoke in SWIY's mouth, it needs to pass through the throat and everything.

The bottom line: because salvinorin can stay gaseous for a longer time with a torch lighter, less will condense out of it, causing more to be metabolized within the body. This is SWIM's guess as to why people report better results with a torch.

But yes, any flame will vaporize salvinorin A. However, Siebert says that it is not crucial to have a torch with extracts (SWIM hates contradicting Siebert, because he is SWIM's hero), but SWIM believes that since extracts have less material, the salvinorin droplets have less to be carried by since there is less leaf smoke to carry it. So torching Salvinorin to hotter temperatures will ensure that it stays in its gaseous state.

Has anyone tried smoking pure salvinorin A? or seen it? as soon as it turns into vapor it disperses and cools pretty quickly. No hot smoke too carry it and keep it at that temperature.

[xctico]

what I don't understand is; why heat it up so much, only to cool it back down with bong water to be able to smoke it?

[Salvinorin A]

The idea is such that more can be inhaled within the lungs. Not everyone can fill up their lungs completely with the incredibly hot salvia smoke.

By using a torch, SWIY produces more smoke (since the salvia combusts more rapidly). If one uses a torch and a bong, more smoke passes through the water so more of it will end up in SWIY's lungs.

It's kind of a trade off. The ideal smoke is one massive hit using a torch, from a pipe, and then holding it in for 60 seconds. But it takes a real trooper to pull that off.

[LeGalizeit]

All the videos I have seen of people smoking Slavia, none have used a tourch and all have a break through trip..

Swims never used a tourch either and had a break trough trip no problem

[bcubed]

SWIM's done it both with a std butane lighter and a torch lighter, using a cheap metal pipe, and hasn't noticed an appreciable difference.

SWIM would reccomend the torch to any smoker just because it's less suceptible to being blown out by the wind.

Incidentaly, anyone know how to get around the fact that butane lighters aren't very good if they get cold? (Besides not letting them get cold in the first place...)

[xctico]

Q has been trying both the butane and the flame torch lighter, and has found almost no difference between smoking with both approaches.
However Q tried a third approach that resulted quiet interesting...

He took some salvia [about 2 moderate dosages] and mixed it with some ganja. He smoked it on the Hooka [in a hooka or narguile the plant material isn't burned but it's in contact with an aluminum screen that's being heated by a charcoal]... and got an interesting effect... he and his gf where smoking for about 90 minutes, getting waves of salvia frecuently... the whole thing was like an extended salvia trip... very strong open eye visuals and closed eye realities... between L-V in the SALVIA scale...